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- Status
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OnlyHeIsHoly
Guest
I saw one day on TCT’s “Ask The Pastor”
One of the pastors who was an apostolic pentecostal said that until someone could prove
what “orthodox” really was from the beginning of christianity, he wouldn’t believe that his
beliefs were heretical. I’m not catholic, but I was totally sitting there like
The things I hear on that show are totally
One of the pastors who was an apostolic pentecostal said that until someone could prove
what “orthodox” really was from the beginning of christianity, he wouldn’t believe that his
beliefs were heretical. I’m not catholic, but I was totally sitting there like
The things I hear on that show are totally
O
OnlyHeIsHoly
Guest
When people make reference to one church, is the reference to the physical church or the invicible Ekklesia?
If I’m not mistaken, even the churches of the NT all appeared to have different traditions but the same essentials of the faith, all required correction, no? Just as the seven churches of Asia.
We all believe in one God, come in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ
And that even with the 7 churches of Asia, some warranted correction but were they not all in Jesus Christ?
If I’m not mistaken, even the churches of the NT all appeared to have different traditions but the same essentials of the faith, all required correction, no? Just as the seven churches of Asia.
We all believe in one God, come in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ
And that even with the 7 churches of Asia, some warranted correction but were they not all in Jesus Christ?
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, David Ruiz,
What an amazingly breath-taking and imaginatiative view - and based on the scholarship of a movie!
Based on your post, the concept of "The Gates of Hell’ apparently is not understood and needs to be clarified. This material comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This defeat of Hell’s power does not apply to all individuals in the hierarchy - there have been some notable public scandals throughout history and to our present day.
Rather, it applies to Church - the Bride of Christ - like a ship coming through a major storm and safely docking at its port.
551 From the beginning of his public life Jesus chose certain men, twelve in number, to be with him and to participate in his mission.280 He gives the Twelve a share in his authority and 'sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal."281 They remain associated for ever with Christ’s kingdom, for through them he directs the Church:
As my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.282
552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286
553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."287 The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: "Feed my sheep."288 The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles289 and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.
And here are the references:
280 Cf. Mk 3:13-19.
281 Lk 9:2.
282 Lk 22:29-30.
283 Cf. Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.
284 Mt 16:18.
285 1 Pet 2:4.
286 Cf. Lk 22:32.
287 Mt 16:19.
288 Jn 21:15-17; cf. 10:11.
God bless
What an amazingly breath-taking and imaginatiative view - and based on the scholarship of a movie!
Based on your post, the concept of "The Gates of Hell’ apparently is not understood and needs to be clarified. This material comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This defeat of Hell’s power does not apply to all individuals in the hierarchy - there have been some notable public scandals throughout history and to our present day.
Rather, it applies to Church - the Bride of Christ - like a ship coming through a major storm and safely docking at its port.551 From the beginning of his public life Jesus chose certain men, twelve in number, to be with him and to participate in his mission.280 He gives the Twelve a share in his authority and 'sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal."281 They remain associated for ever with Christ’s kingdom, for through them he directs the Church:
As my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.282
552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286
553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."287 The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: "Feed my sheep."288 The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles289 and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.
And here are the references:
280 Cf. Mk 3:13-19.
281 Lk 9:2.
282 Lk 22:29-30.
283 Cf. Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.
284 Mt 16:18.
285 1 Pet 2:4.
286 Cf. Lk 22:32.
287 Mt 16:19.
288 Jn 21:15-17; cf. 10:11.
God bless
P
PJM
Guest
I fear you are going further and further out on a limb. Let’s see if I can help you back…
THANKS Tom,
But why did I post that you do not agree with?
God Bless,
Pat
T
TradionalWay
Guest
Then I am not clearly understand Communicato in Sacris???Hi, TradionalWay,
How very interesting…
Now I confess, I have only come across this once in my life - but, it certainly appears to me that your response would be consistent with the concern expressed by God in:
Exodus 32:9
Exodus 33:3
Deuteronomy 9:6
Deuteronomy 31:27
2 Chronicles 36:13
Jeremiah 17:23
Acts 7:51
In all of these instances, the Sacred Writers are identifying God’s People as ‘stiff-necked’ - unwilling to obey God’s Word. Such a demonstration is not the virtue of perseverance - rather it certainly appears to be willful disobedience.
Please discuss the material from the CCC that I and others have brought to you. To maintain your current position is not in keeping with the Church’s teaching - and disobedience is hardly the way to be considered the ‘Traditional Way’ in a positive sense.
God bless
And since the Eucharist binds us together???
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, TraditionalWay,
I think this is the operative section you are addressing:
**“The one true Church of Christ, and it alone, has the right to honor God through the public worship willed by him. The worship of other communities may be good in itself, but to the extent that it is the worship of a community that does not belong to the true Church of Christ, it is not as it should be. In addition, only the Churches that are in ecclesiastical communion with the Bishop of Rome, whom Christ has made head of the entire Church, can be considered authentic parts of the universal Church in the full theological sense of the word. Participation in a Church’s public worship, especially in its eucharistic celebration, is a decisive sign of unity with that Church.” **http://sedevacantist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=543&start=0
Nothing in the material I presented to you from the CCC is in conflict with Communicato in Sacris.
So, in answer to your question you do not clearly understand this teaching. My recommendation would be to return to the CCC link I provided and re-examine them - and, then, if you have a question, let’s address it clearly and with conviction.
Non-Catholics and Catholics not in the State of Grace may not receive Holy Communion. That has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church and nothing in the CCC is contrary to this.
God bless
I think this is the operative section you are addressing:
**“The one true Church of Christ, and it alone, has the right to honor God through the public worship willed by him. The worship of other communities may be good in itself, but to the extent that it is the worship of a community that does not belong to the true Church of Christ, it is not as it should be. In addition, only the Churches that are in ecclesiastical communion with the Bishop of Rome, whom Christ has made head of the entire Church, can be considered authentic parts of the universal Church in the full theological sense of the word. Participation in a Church’s public worship, especially in its eucharistic celebration, is a decisive sign of unity with that Church.” **http://sedevacantist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=543&start=0
Nothing in the material I presented to you from the CCC is in conflict with Communicato in Sacris.
So, in answer to your question you do not clearly understand this teaching. My recommendation would be to return to the CCC link I provided and re-examine them - and, then, if you have a question, let’s address it clearly and with conviction.
Non-Catholics and Catholics not in the State of Grace may not receive Holy Communion. That has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church and nothing in the CCC is contrary to this.
God bless
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
And where do non Catholics are to receive Holy Communion? in the CC?
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Wisdomseeker,
Generally speaking, they don’t. Here is a link: uscatholic.org/glad-you-asked/2008/11/can-a-non-catholic-receive-communion
God bless
Generally speaking, they don’t. Here is a link: uscatholic.org/glad-you-asked/2008/11/can-a-non-catholic-receive-communion
God bless
D
david_ruiz
Guest
Hi. Sounds good to me. Thank-you
D
david_ruiz
Guest
Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286Hi, David Ruiz,
What an amazingly breath-taking and imaginatiative view - and based on the scholarship of a movie!
Based on your post, the concept of "The Gates of Hell’ apparently is not understood and needs to be clarified. This material comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This defeat of Hell’s power does not apply to all individuals in the hierarchy - there have been some notable public scandals throughout history and to our present day.
551 From the beginning of his public life Jesus chose certain men, twelve in number, to be with him and to participate in his mission.280 He gives the Twelve a share in his authority and 'sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal."281 They remain associated for ever with Christ’s kingdom, for through them he directs the Church:
As my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.282
552
553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."287 The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: "Feed my sheep."288 The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles289 and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.
And here are the references:
280 Cf. Mk 3:13-19.
281 Lk 9:2.
282 Lk 22:29-30.
283 Cf. Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.
284 Mt 16:18.
285 1 Pet 2:4.
286 Cf. Lk 22:32.
287 Mt 16:19.
288 Jn 21:15-17; cf. 10:11.
God bless
Perhaps the gates of hell could be better discussed or applied. Am glad to see the power of binding and loosening was given to all twelve apostles ,as I would say they all had the keys ,and they all had divine revelation that Christ was the Lord, as they were all twelve our foundation(Revelations).
C
CopticChristian
Guest
The NT Churches were not established in the sense that all was well in that they were up and running and like we see today. Corinth had problems, Rome had problems and thus the letters. Look beyond the NT…if you believe Christ founded a Church, even if they were in different areas would they not all look the same and would they not have grown up. A mustard seed does not look like the plant…look beyond the NT Churches as what it is the Church is…start there but don’t end there.
D
david_ruiz
Guest
What about the orthodox ? Again , nothing in the early creeds about a pope. Indeed the office "developed’’. As she developed , so did correct rebuttal , by good Catholics ,who were successors to “Peter”-that is ordained bishops/priests. The strict adherence to every “truth” is a double edged sword. So if the CC strayed on this one point of faith of the papal office , having only mere opinion, is the rest that was built from there on man-made ?..It is also a weak argument to say just cause it isn’t mentioned in the early creed doesn’t mean it existed .
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Oriental Church, Orthodox Church, Catholic Church agree on 7 Sacraments. Why not focus on what we agree on rather that what you see as disagreement. Work from that end.
The Oriental Orthodox Church and the rest of the Church split over differences in Christological terminology. The First Council of Nicaea (325) declared that Jesus Christ is God, “consubstantial” with the Father; and the First Council of Ephesus (431) that Jesus, though divine as well as human, is only one being (hypostasis). Twenty years after Ephesus, the Council of Chalcedon declared that Jesus is one person in two complete natures, one human and one divine.
The Orthodox split is Controversial however to say it is over words would suffice.
It is not a split over Baptism as regnerative, it is not a split over the Canon of the Bible, it is not a split over Justification or The Bible alone…look at the similarities.
Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox agree that Revelation of God is included in Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition.
T
TradionalWay
Guest
Exactly my point!!!
T
TradionalWay
Guest
Firstly when I talk about protestants its those that are NOT in communion with the Holy Father
Then Secondly, protestants does not receive communion. Only catholic’s whom consider the host to be fully changed in the TRUE body and blood of our Lord.
So that’s my point…
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, David Ruiz,
Not quite…
The 12 Apostles were not each given keys - Christ only gave out one set of keys - and that was to Peter. Now, if you have a scriptural verse that supports 11 other sets being given out by Christ, please share it with us.
All of the Apostles worked together - with Peter as the head. He is the one out of the Apostles that Christ ‘…would pray for…’ especially, who would fail and then come back to ‘…strengthen his brothers…’ May I suggest you read the 22nd Chapter of Luke for a better understanding that Peter was just one of the guys.
Do not misunderstand, all of the Apostles continued to cooperate with the Grace of God - except Judas - and they received many blessings. The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles and those others gathered in the upper room and gave them amazing Gifts. But look - it is Peter who takes charge, it is Peter who makes the decisions, it is Peter who is seen by both the Apostles and the Jewish authorities as being in charge.
Your view is simply not supported by Sacred Tradition, Scriture or the Early Church Fathers. What does support it are the traditions of men that seek to supplant the Chruch founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16:18).
God bless
Not quite…
The 12 Apostles were not each given keys - Christ only gave out one set of keys - and that was to Peter. Now, if you have a scriptural verse that supports 11 other sets being given out by Christ, please share it with us.
All of the Apostles worked together - with Peter as the head. He is the one out of the Apostles that Christ ‘…would pray for…’ especially, who would fail and then come back to ‘…strengthen his brothers…’ May I suggest you read the 22nd Chapter of Luke for a better understanding that Peter was just one of the guys.
Do not misunderstand, all of the Apostles continued to cooperate with the Grace of God - except Judas - and they received many blessings. The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles and those others gathered in the upper room and gave them amazing Gifts. But look - it is Peter who takes charge, it is Peter who makes the decisions, it is Peter who is seen by both the Apostles and the Jewish authorities as being in charge.
Your view is simply not supported by Sacred Tradition, Scriture or the Early Church Fathers. What does support it are the traditions of men that seek to supplant the Chruch founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16:18).
God bless
J
joe370
Guest
David, the early church Christians were not scripture alone proponents either. Surely you must agree with that fact? If I am right then why should any Christian embrace the practice of sola scriptura today?
P
PJM
Guest
***Always and without a single exception, God has consistantly demanded [and punished severly for Not doin so], belief in only One God [Him-Triune], Never-EVER more than ONLY One set of Faith beliefs, and alway’s just One Chruch organization. Each unit of ONE is highly signifiant. Especially with the unslot of SOOOO-MANY man made versions of the 'One possible truth."
How or why God tolerates Protestantism has become the most recent MYSTERY of trying to comprehend the mind of God
***THANKS for asking,
God Bless,
Pat
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