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pablope
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John_oxios
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There's Divine Forgiveness, and forgiveness between men. See Proverbs 6:2 if you are snared in the utterance of your lips, caught in the words of your mouth;
3 then do this, my son, and save yourself, for you have come into your neighbor’s power: go, hasten, and importune your neighbor.
4 Give your eyes no sleep and your eyelids no slumber;
5 save yourself like a gazelle from the hunter, like a bird from the hand of the fowler.
Men do not sin against men, Men sin against God, Many sins wrong our neighbor, but We hurt each other, we can forgive each other for the hurts we have caused to another. How ever that forgiveness benefits the forgiver, Forgiveness is a gift. So the person who had been hurt, doesn’t harbor bad feelings toward another. The Devil can and does use human hurts to put a crack in our armor of faith.
CCC#1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and actions his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that He acquired for us in the price of blood. But He entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the Apostolic Ministry which He charged with the “Ministry of Reconciliation. The Apostle is sent out on the ''behalf of Christ” with God making His appeal through Him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”
#CC# 1445 The words bind and loose mean: Whomever you exclud from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you anew into your communion, God will welcome back into His. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
God bless,
John
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, David Ruiz,
St. Augustine is quoted as saying, “Love God and then do what you will”. This implies a genuine knowledge and love for God to keep the ‘…do what you will…’ part heading straight for God. This saintly Early Chruch Father (354-430) was truly a significant source of inspiration and insight into the Catholic Faith - but, as I tried to previously demonstrate, heretical beliefs came before Augustine and then came after him.
It isn’t that ‘new truths were added’ but, consider that Protestants only consider the Bible as the authoritive source for all information about God. Early in the revolt, Protestant leaders threw out the very concept of Sacred Tradition - they could not see it, so, it simply did not exist. Now, the fact that from 33AD when Christ ascended into Heaven until about 25 years later - not one word of the New Testament Canon was written - you just have to wonder how those early Catholics made it. Then we must advance to the year 100AD when the last word of the NT was written … and wonder what happened durng this period when the entire NT was not gathered together. The Message of Christ was carried forward by Sacred Tradition - and it continued to carry the Message to 400AD when the Canon of Scripture was approved. But, you know what, Sacred Tradition was not put on a shelf after that and replaced with the Bible. Catholics believe that both are quite necessary. We must be very clear about this - Sacred Tradition is not the traditions of men (like altar calls and statements like Faith Alone or Scripture Alone). The Holy Spirit is the Guiding Force behind Sacred Traditions.
I realize that it would have been a totally different process if Christ had not only founded His Chruch on Peter [Matt 16:18] (whose current successor is Benedict XVI) but had given Peter a clearly written Policy and Procedure Manual. But, you know what - God did not chose to operate His Church that way. And, really, that is the bottom line on that. Either one believes in not only the Church founded by Christ on Peter but also in the methodology God used to get us to this point in time.
God bless
St. Augustine is quoted as saying, “Love God and then do what you will”. This implies a genuine knowledge and love for God to keep the ‘…do what you will…’ part heading straight for God. This saintly Early Chruch Father (354-430) was truly a significant source of inspiration and insight into the Catholic Faith - but, as I tried to previously demonstrate, heretical beliefs came before Augustine and then came after him.
It isn’t that ‘new truths were added’ but, consider that Protestants only consider the Bible as the authoritive source for all information about God. Early in the revolt, Protestant leaders threw out the very concept of Sacred Tradition - they could not see it, so, it simply did not exist. Now, the fact that from 33AD when Christ ascended into Heaven until about 25 years later - not one word of the New Testament Canon was written - you just have to wonder how those early Catholics made it. Then we must advance to the year 100AD when the last word of the NT was written … and wonder what happened durng this period when the entire NT was not gathered together. The Message of Christ was carried forward by Sacred Tradition - and it continued to carry the Message to 400AD when the Canon of Scripture was approved. But, you know what, Sacred Tradition was not put on a shelf after that and replaced with the Bible. Catholics believe that both are quite necessary. We must be very clear about this - Sacred Tradition is not the traditions of men (like altar calls and statements like Faith Alone or Scripture Alone). The Holy Spirit is the Guiding Force behind Sacred Traditions.
I realize that it would have been a totally different process if Christ had not only founded His Chruch on Peter [Matt 16:18] (whose current successor is Benedict XVI) but had given Peter a clearly written Policy and Procedure Manual. But, you know what - God did not chose to operate His Church that way. And, really, that is the bottom line on that. Either one believes in not only the Church founded by Christ on Peter but also in the methodology God used to get us to this point in time.
God bless
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benedictus2
Guest
Oh really. So therefore according to the Catholic Church the sacraments are totally unnecessary? Don’t you know that there is nothing in the Apostles Creed about the necesssity of baptism? So you are saying that the Church teaches that this is not necessary?
But wait, CC says the Apostles Creed is a Catholic document,once known as “rule of faith”. What did the original Apostles Creed leave out ?
Baptism, Eucharist.
The Apostles Creed is not the be all and end all of the faith because not everything we believe in the Church is contained in it. This was formulated by the infant Church still trying to make sense of her mission, and her teachings.
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benedictus2
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If you do then you then you must realize that it is not the only thing required of Christians in the first century.
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benedictus2
Guest
Or more likely that Satan always attacks those closest to Christ because that is how he aims to bring about his rule.
If Satan is not working at getting at you, that means he has already got you.
It is good to be discerning if one is “in Christ” or not ,despite their religious words or actions.But we must also be careful in our judging .Luke 9:49 - "And John answered and said, “Master ,we saw one casting out demons in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us” And Jesus said unto him, “Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”…
Yes to be in Christ. If one is In Christ, wouldn’t one want to follow Christ in everythign He commanded? In what He has willed? Did Christ not will only One Church?
But what we have instead are people saying they follow Christ but do so according to their own terms. If Christ’s command is uncomfortable they find ways of going around that command so they can excuse their disobedience to it. If one is In Christ, one must follow Christ. In everything…unconditionally.
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TradionalWay
Guest
Well protestants are excommunication and declared heretics by the church, which make the, not part of the catholic church… Views are that protestants wont gain salvation… So I don’t see the reason to fight for the name as same religion
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CopticChristian
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I have not seen many of your posts. It is important to be consistent.
I agree Protestant thought is not consisitent with the deposit of Faith. There is no one Protestant thought, it is varied. Protestanism at its inception was heresy. Martin Luther was declared to be a heretic and Calvin proposed heretical doctrines…I believe one of them was Penal Substitution.
Now today although Protestanism was heresy those born into Protestant communities are not heretics…How can someone be a heretic if they were brought up believing by well meaning parents that they were 'just christians". Protestants of today cannot be considered excommunicated because they were never exposed to the fullness of the Faith and denied it. They have been exposed to the Faith and unfortunately taught false doctrine. There are essentially 4.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Extrinsic Justification
Denial Church Authority
Protestants inherit the belief that each person is a Pope/Magesterium/font of tradition and makes their own decision with a Bible they mutated from the original and although claiming that Scripture is inspired and infallible can never prove this and admit that every thought that comes from the “Book” is fallible. They can never claim infallibility or freedom from error thus all the mutations of Protestant thought.
A good starting point with Protestants is to ask if the table of contents in their book is inspired and if not why is it in there? Most Protestants would say that the last book of Revalation warns against “adding or subtracting”…then why was the table of contents bound up with the “Book” if it is not inspired or free from error.
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tqualey
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Hi, Wisdomseeker,
I think you are referring to Acts 19:15. This could be the only recorded time where the Devil did the right thing!
Yeah… he beat the hell out of those immposters!! 
Now, I have no idea exactly what the Devil’s intentions were at the time … but, it gives people pause before even thinking of fooling around with the Devil! 
Yes, this confusion between the role of the OT and the NT in the life of the believer is usually lost before even really starting. The reason for the problem is that they refuse in Sacred Tradition - so, they have made themselves lost. While there are no easy answers here - there is a simple one: while do all 40,000+ Protestant groups refuse to believe in what Christ said - but, readily agree to believe what men say Christ **really **meant! This is a real problem - but one totally ignored in the process of megachurches.
God bless
I think you are referring to Acts 19:15. This could be the only recorded time where the Devil did the right thing!
Yeah… he beat the hell out of those immposters!! Now, I have no idea exactly what the Devil’s intentions were at the time … but, it gives people pause before even thinking of fooling around with the Devil! Yes, this confusion between the role of the OT and the NT in the life of the believer is usually lost before even really starting. The reason for the problem is that they refuse in Sacred Tradition - so, they have made themselves lost. While there are no easy answers here - there is a simple one: while do all 40,000+ Protestant groups refuse to believe in what Christ said - but, readily agree to believe what men say Christ **really **meant! This is a real problem - but one totally ignored in the process of megachurches.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, TradionalWay,
This is not the postion of the Catholic Church.
First of all, here is the entire section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that addresses the Church: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
Secondly, here is what the Catholic Church teaches:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
God bless
This is not the postion of the Catholic Church.
First of all, here is the entire section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that addresses the Church: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
Secondly, here is what the Catholic Church teaches:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
To be honest, the way you wrote this made me initially wonder if you were being serious or not. If the idea that all of Protestantism represents those outside the Catholic Church can not be saved - then simply stated this is incorrect. If someone knows that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, established by Christ on Peter - but refuses to join this Church for their own selfish reasons - then there salvation is at risk. For those who are working with the lights that they have and sincerely believe that their Protestant beliefs (not part of the Deposit of Faith) are true - then they will be judged according to how they responded to the Grace of God.
God bless
J
John_oxios
Guest
That was for the original Reformers, red your catechism, the Church does not hold anything against anyone born in a another faith. We ought not hold the sin of their ancestors on their children.
since Vatican II,
** Wounds to unity**
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
God bless,
John
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tqualey
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PJM
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Tom, I can promise you that your disapointment is NOTHING compared to Gods.
No where in the entire Bible does God EVER permit belief in more than One God [Triune] or His ALONE set of faith beliefs =ONE ONLY, or more than One Church orhanization. NOT ONE TIME.
That my friend is the fallacy of ALL other religions as they are built on quicksand, and usurped “rights.” Consider this Tom: what religion other than Catholism was founded by Jesus Christ Himself. NONE:shrug:
Sorry, but that dear friend is God’s own Truth:thumbsup:
God Bless,
Pat
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wisdomseeker
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That is true and just that the Church do not charge them. But the Church does say that those who hear and know the CC and refuse to enter in her, are in danger of losing their souls. the CC is constantly calling them and they continuously reject her.
The Church does not charge them, the Church wants them to be converted to the Holy Faith where Salvation is found. They are a group of people who needs to be evangelized into the Church, however I have noticed that the Church is kind of giving up on them. the Church needs to concentrate on Catholics again.
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PJM
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PLEASE allow an old man to jump in
As I will shortry prove to you; these words of binding and loosing were [are] terms of Governance. What Christ did here and again in Mt. 18:18, and again in John 20:19-22 is to authorize Peter, and THROUGH Peter the other apostles and today’s CC, to GOVERN the New Faith, based on thee New Covenant in the New Church that Christ founded.
While they do have appliacation to forgiveness of sins; there primary application IN THIS TEXT is the transfer of Authority.
From a non-Catholic source
From STRONGS CONCORDANCE of Hebrew
“TO BIND” in Hebrew
3256 yacar yaw-sar’ a primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct:–bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.
“TO LOOSE” in Hebrew5203 natash naw-tash’ a primitive root; properly, to pound, i.e. smite; by implication (as if beating out, and thus expanding) to disperse; also, to thrust off, down, out or upon (inclusively, reject, let alone, permit, remit, etc.):–cast off, drawn, let fall, forsake,
If you’d like a more detailed explaination send me a private message.
Now as for the forgiveness of sin:
READ 1st. Jn. 1;8-10; then 1st. Jn. 5:16-17 and then this:
John.20: 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.*** If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”***
In this short passage ALL of the following take place:
**Pentecost Sunday
The Sacrament of Confirmation
The Formal formation of today’s RCC
The transfure of Christ actual Power and authority to Peter and the Apostles and through them to today’s Pope and the RCC.
The Sacrament of Known forgiveness of sins [Penance / Confession / Reconcillation]
God Bless you my friend,
Pat**
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John_oxios
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I disagree, if they know / realize the truth, it;s because the Holy Spirit moved them. If they become aware that it is of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit will work through people if they choose to listen… then again they can choose to ignore what they know or hear. In which case all the evangelization in the world will not help. They first have to Choose to listen only then will the Master appear.
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God bless,
John
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highcalling
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Assertion: Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics
Rebut: Protestants by definition reject the office of the papacy and have lost the faith. Since it only takes the loss of one essential point of faith for a person to lose the faith and devolve into mere opinion, it is evident that Protestant is a man-made religion. God is only truly worshiped in the Catholic Church. The Protestants are outside the Church. Therefore they do not have the virtue of religion.
Rebut: Protestants by definition reject the office of the papacy and have lost the faith. Since it only takes the loss of one essential point of faith for a person to lose the faith and devolve into mere opinion, it is evident that Protestant is a man-made religion. God is only truly worshiped in the Catholic Church. The Protestants are outside the Church. Therefore they do not have the virtue of religion.
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TradionalWay
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First time posting in this category actually… I tend to view more on the traditional laws…
Well if they are not excommunicated from the church, why wont the church allow them receiving the host? Because they are not in communion… so they still are excommunicated…
They still are heretics… since they don’t accept catholic doctrines such as the real presence of Christ in the host, Papal infeasibility etc… so… since they still follow the heretical ways, still are baptised the heretical ways… I would disagree and say they are still heretics
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CopticChristian
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All those that do not and cannot accept the Eucharist are not excommunicated just not properly Catechized. That includes Protestants, Muslims, Hindu’s etc.
They are not heretics if they do not know they embrace heresy. How can you be responsible for declaring to be something you do not know is false. Those baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian, even if they deny this makes them a Christian, and I agree there are heretical baptisms, ie Mormons. Oneness Pentacostals are Modalists and deny the trinity and I believe they baptize in the name of Jesus only.
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