Protestants: Are people in heaven aware of what happens here?

[sharonh28]

I love that we are all one body. After we die we will still be remembered by the part of the body that is still on earth. It seems that I was impressed from my earliest Catechism courses with the fact that our earthly, language, feelings, etc are so limited that we cannot even find words, feelings, expressions to convey the things of God. Our verbage and feelings will always fall short. Jesus often reminds us that He is no OF this world. Up to this point, except for our soul’s longing and the response of the Holy Spirit in us, well, that is about as tangible as we are going to get in knowing what Heaven holds for us.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Actually it has not been established but assumed. Even you would have to admit that you have no way to know with any certainty whether that catholic is in heaven, purgatory or hell.
Can a catholic hear in purgatory for example? What does the church teach?

No, we cannot hear them unless by a special permission by God. They can hear us because of the Scripture that indicates such, as stated above.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The only way we will be like angels, is not being married, the text does not say, nor imply that we will be angels.

I said be “like” angels. Which Scripture says. I have no problem with it referring to our not being married either.

 

[mozart-250]

I read a non-Catholic Christian’s post stating that people in heaven “have no knowledge of what happens on earth as you have none of heaven now.”

What do you think?

Not totally sure, but,

Well I was at a funeral this summer of an assistant pastor at a charismatic church in Burlington (and the grandfather and father of a family at my church)…

And they acted and made statements that implied Pastor Pony was aware of his funeral. I’m quite sure I have observed this at other funerals (Protestant) but can’t totally recall.

My grandmother (Baptist) reported she sometimes could feel my grandfather’s presence after he went on to be with the Lord. And it gave her comfort (of course to some this would would be “calling the dead”).

So why wouldn’t they I guess would be my answer.

At the same time, I have no reason to believe the dead are aware of everything that happens on earth and can somehow observe every prayer request that comes their way. But at the same time I can’t prove that is not the case either. So I guess that ability is speculative.

I figure that if God wants a deceased saint to be interceding in prayer on my behalf, He can manage heaven well enough to make sure that happens.

 

[agangbern]

You are reading your view into the text. The mytars in Rev 6 are very immature there. And, are going from their personal memory of what happened to them on earth. **They are immature **because they are calling out for REVENGE rather than praying for them that murdered them on earth. Jesus give us the proper MATURE example, asking God the father to forgive those who where putting him to death.

Matthew 5:44

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them which **despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, **“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” **And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Jesus teaches us to forgive those whom mytar us ( yes, that is the meaning of persecute ), Jesus gave us the mature example of forgiving those who where putting him to death on the cross, and those in Rev 6 are doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught, and demonstrated.

Those in Rev 6, were recently killed for their beliefs. They are going via their personal memories, and as immature christians they are calling for revenge, which is directly contray to being Christ like.

So, your proof text falls flat.

Why raise the issue of maturity or immaturity here? Is this thread asking whether or not the people in heaven are mature or immature?

 

[justasking4]

Okay well I’ll try to answer the question. I pulled this from biblechristiansociety.com but I’m condensing it a bit.

Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ; Rom 12:4-5, 1 Cor 12:12-13

And physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ; Rom 8:38-39

Therefore those who have died and who have gone to heaven before us does not cease being part of the body.

Read also 1 Cor 12:12-26. I’ll just quote the last two verses: " so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy."

Make of that what you will, but the Catholic thinking on this is not out of left field and is in fact biblical. Now, you may have a different interpretation of the verses you have been referenced, but I think it is safe to say that your interpretation is not infallible.

Now, I would also like to paint you a picture so to speak. Let’s say a mother loses her child and she desperately misses her child and visits the grave side often. At the grave side she talks to her child because it gives her some peace to do so. I know Protestants to do this as well. Do you honestly believe God will damn this poor mother to hell because she speaks to her child and longs to be able to see her child again? Even if you do not agree the child can hear her mother, it doesn’t make it wrong for this poor mother to sit and talk to her baby. This is not the makings of an occult practice. And if you don’t know the difference then please educate yourself on the matter.

What do you do with I Thess 4:13-17 where it is said that when believers die they are asleep? When people are asleep they are unaware of the world around them.

 

[guanophore]

The reason the saints can’t hear you are numerous but let me give you a passage from I Thess 4 in which Paul describes the state of those who have died in Christ:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Notice that Paul uses the word “sleep” to describe the condition of those who have died. We all know that when a person is asleep he is totally oblivious to the outside world. I’m referring to the deep sleep kind where you have no conscious awareness of the outside world. So it is in death.

Any study of sleep will tell you this is not the case, ja4. In fact, sleeping person often work events into their dreams that are happening around them in the environment. It would be more accurate to say that a sleeping person is more aware of the inner world when asleep than the outer world, just as persons who fall asleep in Christ are more aware of heaven than they are the events on earth. Otherwise, why would Paul say “we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.” 2 Cor 5:8-9 ?

How can Paul continue to please the Lord “at home or away” if he has no more free will, or is not “awake” unto God?

 

[guanophore]

You are reading your view into the text. The mytars in Rev 6 are very immature there. And, are going from their personal memory of what happened to them on earth. **They are immature **because they are calling out for REVENGE rather than praying for them that murdered them on earth.

This is absurd, Daniel. They are in the presence of the Holy. They are not asking for “revenge” but justice. They are asking the Holy God how long until justice is done. Those killing the martyrs were not ignorant, like the ones that put Jesus to death and did not know any better.

Jesus give us the proper MATURE example, asking God the father to forgive those who where putting him to death.

Matthew 5:44

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them which **despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, **“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” **And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Forgiveness does not mean justice should not happen. Sin brings judgement, and judgement brings death. All of those who sin will die. This is God’s justice.

Jesus teaches us to forgive those whom mytar us ( yes, that is the meaning of persecute ), Jesus gave us the mature example of forgiving those who where putting him to death on the cross, and those in Rev 6 are doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught, and demonstrated.

Clearly you do not understand the justice of God, and the forgiveness of the martyrs. Unforgiveness is a sin, and one cannot enter or live in heaven in a state of sin. If the martyrs had not forgiven their persecutors, they would not be in heaven! “forgive us AS WE FORGIVE our trespassers,” remember?

Those in Rev 6, were recently killed for their beliefs. They are going via their personal memories, and as immature christians they are calling for revenge, which is directly contray to being Christ like.

So, your proof text falls flat.

Persons who are not Christ like don’t go to heaven, sorry Daniel. Yours is the one that falls flat.

Bottom line, by making saints able to look down from heaven you are making them out to be gods, thus idol worship.

More absurdities, Daniel. Saints being able to do anything (which could only happen by the grace of God) does not make them into “gods”. Talking to the saints is not “idol worship”, since talking to them is not “worship” but conversation. Since they are not “gods” they cannot become “idols”. Otherwise, Jesus must have been “idol worshipping” when he was conversing with Moses and Elijah!

 

[guanophore]

God forbids contact with the “dead”, so if you are having “experiences” with those who have passed on then you are in serious sin that will send one to hell.

Good thing they are alive in Christ, then!

Eph 2:5-6
made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

 

[guanophore]

Right non of your proof texts proves that those in heaven have direct knowledge of what is going on on earth.

. So, we argee that the souls or spirits of abraham and company are alive in the sense that they exist. The transfiguration does not prove even those in the transfiguration had any knowledge of what is going on on earth at This Time.

Luke 9:29-32
30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

I think your preconceived theology is blinding you to what the scriptures teach.

 

[guanophore]

Ah, no one in Rev 6 is praying for a christian at all. they being immature persons are calling for revenge.

Honestly, Daniel. DO you really think that God is going to let the worship in His court interrupted by a bunch of whining crybabies?
It is the Holiness and Truth of God that requires justice for the blood of the martyrs.

Rev 6:10-11
10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

If they were being so immature, why wer they given white robes and told to rest? It seems like they would be sent instead to work on more humility and maturity.

Rom 8 and in Hebrews we are taught that Jesus and the Holy Spirit himself are praying for us. How can any “saints” prayer be more powerful than God himself?

We are all repeatedly urged to pray for one another. God has empowered the saints with the ability to interceded. How else could the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous avail anything? It is only by God’s grace. Are you saying you don’t believe in intercessory prayer? !

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

He (the HS) makes this intercession THROUGH the saints. If you look at the context of this passage, you can see that it is talking about the gift of tongues, and how it works.

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is** Christ **that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And, in His mercy, allows us to partake of this intercessory ministry.

We as protestants have God himself, ( Christ and Holy Spirit ) praying for us.

This may come as a shock to you, but we all have this!

Why on earth would we want inferrior prayers of humans, who can not search our beings, hearts take God’s place in our life?

God has ordained that we should pray one for another. He has shared His priestly ministry of intercession with us. The saints are aware of whatever God wants to reveal to them, just as Peter was made aware that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the HS.

 

[guanophore]

Death and the mere fact the scriptures never teach such a thing. it does teach that Jesus alone is our Mediator and High priest who intercedes for us. In the heavenly realm there is never any exhortation for those who have died to intercede for us. Jesus alone is sufficent.

Here you aer again, ja4, limited by your Sola Scriptura. Where we have it from the Apostles that it is not “Jesus alone”, any more than it is “scripture alone”. These are departures from Apostolic Teaching, and erroneous.

i suppose He could but its up to you that He actually has. Certainly the scriptures never teach this.

Good thing we are not limited to that portion of Divine Revelation!

Its not wise to go beyond what is written and make doctrines and practices on speculations.

You are right, and fortunately, we have the successors of the writers so that we rightly understand what has been written, and therefore we know that the saints are alive in heaven. We also have the Apostolic Succession and the sure guide that prevents us from making practices and doctrines that are based on speculations.

One wonders, ja4. Since you have already made up your mind that these “Catholic” practices are “speculations of men”, why are you on the forum?

If you don’t believe that people in heaven can pray for those earth, and have already stated as much, why are you still here?

You have to assume this and that does not mean its true. Even though your assumption sounds reasonable that does not mean its true. There is no evidence for it in the Scriptures. The only One Who knows whats “going on here” is Christ. We know this because scripture teaches this.

I am really looking forward to hearing your “take” on what the conversation was about at the Transfiguration, since you are convinced no one knows what is going on except Christ. After that, I would like to know why Jesus warned everyone to treat kids well because their angels were constantly beholding the father’s face.

Where does He teach such a thing?

By example, at the transfiguration.

True

So, if you know you can pray for others without circumventing Christ, how is it that only you can do this, and no one else?

You don’t know this. In fact the scriptures are clear that those who have died in Christ are asleep.

Yes! and are more alive to the other realm than they are this, just as those who fall asleep in the flesh.

The verse in John doesn’t help you since we don’t know exactly what that was.

It helps a lot, because it confirms what we already know, that not all the Divine Revelation is found in the Scriptures .

Secondly, how do you know if your understanding is correct if the scriptures never taught such a thing to begin with?

Because we can go to the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth for confirmation!

Anyone can claim the HS gave them a deeper understanding.

Yes, but not everyone has an infallible source upon which to fall back for confirmation.

The cults do that all the time. What we want to look at are the reasons given.

Do they claim to have been founded by Jesus, and preserved the Apostolic Teachings also?

If you are going to use scripture then you have to uderstand the context. If the context does not work then you will have to go eleswhere.

We know that the context of the Scriptures is the Catholic Church. The scriptures were written by, for, and about the Catholic Church. Taking any of the scriptures out of that context will result in misunderstanding them.

 

[historyb]

Not totally sure, but,

Well I was at a funeral this summer of an assistant pastor at a charismatic church in Burlington (and the grandfather and father of a family at my church)…

And they acted and made statements that implied Pastor Pony was aware of his funeral. I’m quite sure I have observed this at other funerals (Protestant) but can’t totally recall.

My grandmother (Baptist) reported she sometimes could feel my grandfather’s presence after he went on to be with the Lord. And it gave her comfort (of course to some this would would be “calling the dead”).

So why wouldn’t they I guess would be my answer.

I can attest to something similar my parents both died in June and I have felt them many times.

 

[john_ennis]

Imagine that Satan himself has some knowledge of what’s happening here on earth…but the Saints in Heaven don’t.

That though Scripture says the ‘little ones’ have angels designated to watch over them, these angels have no knowledge of anything going on here.

Imagine that one of our great privileges in this life is to love one another (a grace given to us by Christ), by responding to the needs of others, including their requests for our prayers…

…But, that we lose that ability when we go to Heaven, when we get even closer to Christ, when we become a more integral part of the Body of Christ than ever before, when we are more righteous than ever. Though “the prayers of the righteous availeth much,” we most righteous cannot respond to the requests of the Body of Christ on earth–not even in the meager way we could before we entered into His glory.

Can you imagine it?
I really can’t.

 

[AngelsAmongUs]

What do you do with I Thess 4:13-17 where it is said that when believers die they are asleep? When people are asleep they are unaware of the world around them.

Let’s make this crystal clear…mmkay? This is YOUR interpretation of scripture. YOUR interpretation is not infallible.

You have been given numerous accounts to show souls are not sleeping by your definition. But here’s one more…Read 1 Peter 3:18-19 " For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

Now, why would Jesus need to preach unto the spirits in prison if they were sleeping and unaware?

And here when Jesus says to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
*And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
*
But I’m sure you will just glaze right over this as you have all the other examples or insert YOUR interpretation into what you THINK it means. You wanted scripture…it was given to you. But your not interested in what we provide you since you are only interested in what YOU think.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Don’t tell me no protestant ever ask anyone to pray for us. If Jesus allowed his disciples to heal the sick, cast out demons, etc …, then what really stops Him to allow those in Heaven from working for Him.

Could you prove that Jesus couldn’t grant them the ability to pray for us as He allows us to pray for each others here on Earth?

Don’t limit what Jesus could do through His people.

Because their role in heaven is to praise God. It is Jesus and the Holy Spirit’s role to pray for us. Romans 8. If you keep speaking to the dead, which is something that God himself calls destatble… repent, so I will see you in heaven.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ask yourself is king saul going to heaven or hell? why would you want to join him?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

What about the rich man and Lazarus? “The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

Now, I think we are all familiar with the story, but my point is that Abraham and Lazarus (whom we know are not on earth) knew very well what was going on from “far off.” Was Abraham behaving as a god for looking down from where he sits? Now granted he is looking down into hell, but nonetheless he was looking down. Does that make him some sort of god?

Funny you should bring that up. First the man in torment was not seeing his family on earth. He was simply remembering their state of life.

And, Luke 16 itself refutes the whole concept of sending the dead to earth to preach.

29"**Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ **

30" ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Death and the mere fact the scriptures never teach such a thing. it does teach that Jesus alone is our Mediator and High priest who intercedes for us. In the heavenly realm there is never any exhortation for those who have died to intercede for us. Jesus alone is sufficent.

i suppose He could but its up to you that He actually has. Certainly the scriptures never teach this.

Its not wise to go beyond what is written and make doctrines and practices on speculations.

Exactly, Romans 8, Hebrews 4 teaches that both the Holy Spirit and Jesus prays for us, that is their role. And, as God no creature, saint or whatever can offer a more perfect prayer for us then God himself can.

By trying to put those who have died in the roles and attributes of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus one is putting those saints in the place of God.

God clearly teaches that contacting the dead is destestable to him. God is not going to cause saints to sin by taking the place of the Holy Spirit, nor by taking the place of Jesus.

I love you all, but if you are trying to contact the dead, then sad to say you are going to Hell. And, you need to repent. I rather see you all in heaven, then suffering in Hell.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

yes, i think they do. look, we can pray to them cant we? and tell them whatever we want? well they then therefore would know whats going on down here.

Or more likely you are just speaking into air.

If you are born of the spirit, then it is the HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS not saints who would be praying for you. Scripture plainly teaches this in Romans 8, and Hebrews 4.