Protestants: Are people in heaven aware of what happens here?

[guanophore]

Because their role in heaven is to praise God. It is Jesus and the Holy Spirit’s role to pray for us. Romans 8. If you keep speaking to the dead, which is something that God himself calls destatble… repent, so I will see you in heaven.

How do you explain the fact that the souls of the martyrs are disobedient to God right in front of His Holy throne? How is it that He is willing to tolerate theri “immature prayer for revenge” as you have characterized it? If their role is to praise God, and they are not fulfilling it, but caught up in their memories of dying, why are they THERE?

Ask yourself is king saul going to heaven or hell? why would you want to join him?

You are missing the point, Daniel. The POINT is are the dead aware. What we are saying is, yes, by the grace of God, if He wants them to be, they are. God enabled Samuel to be aware of what was going on with Saul. No one is approving or encouraging people to emulate what Saul did.

Exactly, Romans 8, Hebrews 4 teaches that both the Holy Spirit and Jesus prays for us, that is their role. And, as God no creature, saint or whatever can offer a more perfect prayer for us then God himself can.

No arguement there.

By trying to put those who have died in the roles and attributes of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus one is putting those saints in the place of God.

You are mistaken, Daniel. No one is trying to “replace” the HS or Jesus. Asking other people for prayer does not mean you are putting those people in the place of God (at least I hope it does not!) . If I am wrong, then you probably don’t ask anyone to pray for you, because you think people cannot cooperate in the ministry of intercession without taking something away from God.

God clearly teaches that contacting the dead is destestable to him.

Good thing they are alive in Christ, then!

God is not going to cause saints to sin by taking the place of the Holy Spirit, nor by taking the place of Jesus.

I am glad we agree about something!

I love you all, but if you are trying to contact the dead, then sad to say you are going to Hell. And, you need to repent. I rather see you all in heaven, then suffering in Hell.

Not to worry, Daniel, we know these people are alive with the Lord.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

No, i am not having “experiences” with those who have passed on. I wrote that from my personal belief and experience I believe that people in heaven can be aware of what happens on earth.

I never wrote that i know for sure that they are, nor did i write that i communicate with the dead!

God knows my heart and my life experiences. HE will be my judge.

Then you are simply contracting yourself. Either you have had experience of talking with the dead or you have not. You can believe that people in Hell, MI can hear you from Ann Arbor MI all you want, that does not make it so.

Ecc 9:6 plainly says that those who have died have no direct personal knowledge of what is happening in the lives of their loved ones “under the sun”, on earth.

Isaiah 33:16-17 clearly teaches that heaven is a **“land very far off” **and therefore those who live there do NOT know what is going on in your land. The very concept of a land being far off in scripture teaches the idea that those in very far off lands do not have personal knowledge of what is happening in your hood.

 

[guanophore]

Ecc 9:6 plainly says that those who have died have no direct personal knowledge of what is happening in the lives of their loved ones “under the sun”, on earth.

Isaiah 33:16-17 clearly teaches that heaven is a **“land very far off” **and therefore those who live there do NOT know what is going on in your land. The very concept of a land being far off in scripture teaches the idea that those in very far off lands do not have personal knowledge of what is happening in your hood.

God is able to give personal knowledge to anyone He wants, wherever He wants, whenever He wants. We know He has done this, and we can see this in the NT. We also have many demonstrations through sacred tradition.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Imagine that Satan himself has some knowledge of what’s happening here on earth…but the Saints in Heaven don’t.

That though Scripture says the ‘little ones’ have angels designated to watch over them, these angels have no knowledge of anything going on here.

Imagine that one of our great privileges in this life is to love one another (a grace given to us by Christ), by responding to the needs of others, including their requests for our prayers…

…But, that we lose that ability when we go to Heaven, when we get even closer to Christ, when we become a more integral part of the Body of Christ than ever before, when we are more righteous than ever. Though “the prayers of the righteous availeth much,” we most righteous cannot respond to the requests of the Body of Christ on earth–not even in the meager way we could before we entered into His glory.

Can you imagine it?
I really can’t.

Outstanding post.

 

[sharonh28]

I realize that my postings are of the “simple” (and I don’t even mean that as derogatory to myself) variety. But even in using the term “sleep”, are we not limited by our human experience with this word. And even in death to us it looks like “sleep” but we understand it as human death. However, understanding “sleep in Christ” is a whole different ball game. I realize that in some ways I am taking both sides of the issue here - those in heaven are aware in that their sleep in Christ…we understand that our soul still lives…our soul still can praise God. Our earthly body appears to be asleep but being asleep in the Lord is something no one has experienced and yet come back to let us know what that is all about. For sure we live on and for sure at the second coming our bodies wil rise and be united with our souls. At that point we will be able to have a very informed discussion on the subject…but will we even want to have it.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

guanophore;2817671]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Death and the mere fact the scriptures never teach such a thing. it does teach that Jesus alone is our Mediator and High priest who intercedes for us. In the heavenly realm there is never any exhortation for those who have died to intercede for us. Jesus alone is sufficent.
guanophore
Here you aer again, ja4, limited by your Sola Scriptura. Where we have it from the Apostles that it is not “Jesus alone”, any more than it is “scripture alone”. These are departures from Apostolic Teaching, and erroneous.

Huh??? i’m almost afraid to ask where the apostles themselves taught that we should pray to those who have died? Chapter and verse please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
i suppose He could but its up to you that He actually has. Certainly the scriptures never teach this.
guanophore
Good thing we are not limited to that portion of Divine Revelation!

And where is this other “Divine Revelation” that you speak of? Please be specific so i don’t misunderstand you. Who outside of Scripture is getting this “Divine Revelation” about this? When did they receive it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Its not wise to go beyond what is written and make doctrines and practices on speculations.
Divine Revelation
You are right, and fortunately, we have the successors of the writers so that we rightly understand what has been written, and therefore we know that the saints are alive in heaven.

Who are the successors of the writers here that are telling you this? Is this the Sacred Tradition that i hear so much about?

guanophore
We also have the Apostolic Succession and the sure guide that prevents us from making practices and doctrines that are based on speculations.

guanophore
One wonders, ja4. Since you have already made up your mind that these “Catholic” practices are “speculations of men”, why are you on the forum?

If you don’t believe that people in heaven can pray for those earth, and have already stated as much, why are you still here?

Is your mind made up? If so, why are you here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
You have to assume this and that does not mean its true. Even though your assumption sounds reasonable that does not mean its true. There is no evidence for it in the Scriptures. The only One Who knows whats “going on here” is Christ. We know this because scripture teaches this.

guanophore
I am really looking forward to hearing your “take” on what the conversation was about at the Transfiguration, since you are convinced no one knows what is going on except Christ.

The Transfiguration is not a prayer but an actual appearance of Moses etc.

After that, I would like to know why Jesus warned everyone to treat kids well because their angels were constantly beholding the father’s face.

Not sure what you are asking here. What do saints who are asleep have to do with this issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where does He teach such a thing?
guanophore
By example, at the transfiguration.

Not so. This is not about praying to those who are asleep in Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
True
guanophore
So, if you know you can pray for others without circumventing Christ, how is it that only you can do this, and no one else?

Can you clarify what you are saying here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
You don’t know this. In fact the scriptures are clear that those who have died in Christ are asleep.
guanophore
Yes! and are more alive to the other realm than they are this, just as those who fall asleep in the flesh.

You don’t know this. No one knows the nature of the afterlife in reagrds to issues like this.

 

[justasking4]

Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The verse in John doesn’t help you since we don’t know exactly what that was.
guanophore
It helps a lot, because it confirms what we already know, that not all the Divine Revelation is found in the Scriptures

 

[Ceil-1]

God lives outside time ,in eternity. If we are with Him in Heaven, we, too are in eternity. We have already joined with our loved ones the moment our souls leave the earth.

Even if you can’t believe that the Saints hear us directly, it is not a stretch to understand that our Angels can and do communicate with them, since we know they behold both earth and heaven at the same time.

I believe the confusion has more to do with “proving” the Catholic position wrong than anything that touches on the reality of the situation.

The Protestant position simply ignores the 2,000 years of experience that confirms our belief, although when they happen upon it for themselves, well, that’s okay. I could write pages and pages of examples of each.

 

[AngelsAmongUs]

Funny you should bring that up. First the man in torment was not seeing his family on earth. He was simply remembering their state of life.

And, Luke 16 itself refutes the whole concept of sending the dead to earth to preach.

29"**Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ **

30" ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Actually I think if anything it blows your theory right out of the water and I’ll tell you why.

1. The rich man is not sleeping, at least not by the definition put forth. (this does not help your case)
2. Abraham isn’t sleeping either. (again not helpful to your case)
3. Lazarus is…guess what…not sleeping. (this doesn’t look good for you)
4. Abraham and Lazarus from where they sit seem awful knowledgeable about what is going on…even what is happening in the place that the rich man occupies. (hmm…maybe “unaware” wasn’t such a good word someone used earlier)
5. The rich man is crying out for Abraham to help his brothers still on earth…that is true. But don’t you think the lesson here is that once in the place of torment, it is too late for you to help anyone or for anyone to help you?
6. And since Abraham is talking to the rich man from beyond the graves then what godlike powers do they have? Or do you think they waited for God to look the other way first?

But of course you are entitled to your view. But I’ll stick with what the Church teaches about saints if it’s all the same to you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

i would disagree with that person. i believe they are aware and are praying. i might be in a minority view though amongst protestants, but in Revelation where the martyrs ask God how much longer… that seems to imply they have a concept of time. since God and heaven are outside of time (not bound by it), i would conclude their reference is the events happening here on earth.

That’s how I read the passage when I came across it.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I read a non-Catholic Christian’s post stating that people in heaven “have no knowledge of what happens on earth as you have none of heaven now.”

What do you think?

When I was a Protestant, it wasn’t something I thought about much until I was confronted with Catholic doctrines such as the Intercession of the Saints.

However, I did from time to time think about a great-grandmother and other people, and think “I want her to be happy about what I’m doing.” But I can’t recall it being based on any churchly education I had received.

 

[MarcoPolo]

When people are asleep they are unaware of the world around them.

justasking, I am sad to see that you continue to ignore how I explained the ancient’s use of the term “asleep” to simply mean they died. You continue to insist that the analogy is more literal, because after all, if you are asleep you can’t hear anyone. Others have contested even that, but if you wish to continue with your personal literal interpretation, I was wondering if you would tell us how other characteristics of sleep fit into the analogy.

If saints are just like people who are asleep in that they can’t hear us, then what about how people who are asleep toss and turn? What about people who are asleep who have nightmares or dreams? How does that play into the analogy of literally mimicking sleep?

How does snoring fit into your literal interpretation of “asleep”? Are the saints making noise in heaven even if they can’t hear us?

Or I suppose you could join me and understand that “asleep” in the passages you cited simply means those people died!

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Even when you are asleep, your mind is subconsciously assimilating information. Unfortunately, that has not proven to be an effective way to get through college

Does one’s soul ever sleep? I’ve sort of always understood sleep to be something that our physical body did, not something the soul did as well.

There is a term…“soul sleep”…but I really don’t know what it means, I’m just aware it is a term.

 

[Tweety]

Then you are simply contracting yourself. Either you have had experience of talking with the dead or you have not. You can believe that people in Hell, MI can hear you from Ann Arbor MI all you want, that does not make it so.

Daniel, i am not contradicting myself.

I said that from my belief and experience that i believe that people in heaven can be aware of what happens on earth. I never said (for the second time) that i talk with dead people.

To *talk with *another person usually involves that other person *talking back *to you when you speak to them.

Well Daniel, I have never experienced a dead person talking to me nor have i ever heard ‘voices’.

As for my personal experience which leads me to think the way i do, it is just that - my personal experience. Nowhere at anytime have i ever stated that i talk with dead people. There have been unexplainable things happen in my life and my home since a dear friend, my father and mother in law passed away.

God knows my heart and everything that happens in my life and home. HE knows what i mean, even if you don’t and that’s all that really matters to me.

 

[Zooey]

Then you are simply contracting yourself. Either you have had experience of talking with the dead or you have not. You can believe that people in Hell, MI can hear you from Ann Arbor MI all you want, that does not make it so.

[sign1] Oh, Piffle!! Pshaw!! Pfui!!! [/sign1]
If** I** can sit here, in my bedroom, and talk to people all over the world & know their replies, what makes you think that the God of the Universe doesn’t have something at least that good for His beloved chlidren, who have gone home to Heaven???

Ecc 9:6 plainly says that those who have died have no direct personal knowledge of what is happening in the lives of their loved ones “under the sun”, on earth.

Isaiah 33:16-17 clearly teaches that heaven is a **“land very far off” **and therefore those who live there do NOT know what is going on in your land. The very concept of a land being far off in scripture teaches the idea that those in very far off lands do not have personal knowledge of what is happening in your hood.

And you had this revelation, when???
Because it’s not in the Bible, laddie.
I think you know that, too, yean; you just don’t know when to cry uncle.

 

[guanophore]

Huh??? i’m almost afraid to ask where the apostles themselves taught that we should pray to those who have died? Chapter and verse please.

Fear not, ja4! I have come to understand that all these Catholic teachings are just the “speculations of men” in your mind, so it will not matter what any of us say. The Apostles taught and modeled that we should pray for one another. The Apostles taught that all who are in Christ are " alive forevermore" and that not even death can separate us from C’hrist. Connect the dots, if you dare!

And where is this other “Divine Revelation” that you speak of? Please be specific so i don’t misunderstand you. Who outside of Scripture is getting this “Divine Revelation” about this? When did they receive it?

John 15:15 “for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

Since Jesus revealed EVERYTHING to His apostles and sent the Holy Spirit to teach (explain) this revelation to the apostles
then the apostles knew everything in regards to salvation.

Therefore,

There is no teaching of scripture in the Old testament, and there is no teaching of scripture in the New Testament that adds to what the apostles learned from Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The apostles could not have learned any additional teachings when the New Testament was written, because that would have made Jesus a liar. If Jesus taught them everything, then there is no other doctrine they could learn from scripture.

The apostles handed down this full and living Gospel to their successors, the bishops of the Church. This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

Therefore since everything Jesus taught the apostles was handed down in Tradition TO EVERY GENERATION and this Tradition contains all the Church believes, then no teaching was “lost”, none was forgotten"

Therefore all doctrines that God has revealed have come through Jesus, who taught all to His apostles, who handed them all down in Tradition. Not a single teaching of the Catholic Church, and not a single teaching of the Gospel, which is the source of all saving truth, comes from the bible.

Who are the successors of the writers here that are telling you this? Is this the Sacred Tradition that i hear so much about?

As I have told you repeatedly, this is specifically defined in the Catholic Catechism. You can also look in the CAF library on Tradition.

Is your mind made up? If so, why are you here?

My mind is made up that you are not here to inquire about the Catholic faith. I believe you are here in an effort to “debunk” the faith of Catholics, so they will abandon the false “speculations of men” which they espouse, and join a Bible Church. I am here to learn, and do so daily.

The Transfiguration is not a prayer but an actual appearance of Moses etc.

If your understanding of prayer is so small that it cannot contain a supernatural experience, then I guess you cannot grasp many types of prayer. The point is that during the transfiguration, Jesus was conversing with the “dead”, as you call them.

You don’t know this. No one knows the nature of the afterlife in reagrds to issues like this.

Actually, those who have received the fullness of Divine Revelation know some very important things about the afterlife. One of them is that the saints are alive in heaven, and they can intercede for us here on earth.

 

[guanophore]

You are still back to square one on this since you have no idea what this was exactly.

On the contrary, the Apostolic teaching has been made very clear, and the Magesterium works tirelessly to continually clarify it in every age and culture.

All Grace and Truth came through Jesus, and was taught by Him orally to His Apostles. Later when the New Testament was written, certain parts of these teachings were written down in the form of salvation history. But, the Church knew every single teaching before a single word of the New Testament was written down.

Thus, to learn the Gospel, we must first learn these teachings the apostles handed down in Tradition, since these teachings are the word of God.

Since everything the Church believes is handed down in Tradition, then we must interpret scripture to conform to the Word of God handed down in this Tradition.

The apostles, and their successors, handed down this Tradition by their example, ways of worship etc, and by using words. They taught by organizing the Gospel they taught by teaching the articles of the Creed, Sacraments, Commandments and prayer.
Thus, the Catechisms, are simply a summary of the Gospel the apostles taught and preached.

Thus, the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is that Catholics learned their teachings directly from Jesus, from God himself.

Since the apostles learned everything directly from Jesus and the Holy Spirit and NOT from scripture, then we can say the “Catholic faith comes to us from the apostles”. That is one of the prayers of the mass. The Catholic faith does not come to us from scripture, though parts of many teachings can be found in scripture.

The Catholic faith, which comes to us from the apostles, when they preached the Gospel, means that the Gospel they preached and taught is the Catholic faith. The Gospel Jesus taught was the Catholic faith. When the Pope says everyone is to proclaim the Gospel, he means everyone is to profess the Catholic faith, by words and of course by example.

Since the primary duty of priests and bishops is the proclamation of the Gospel to all, this means their primary duty is the teaching and preaching of the Catholic faith to all.

The Church learned the entire Gospel directly from Jesus, directly from God himself, that is why the Church teachings seem so much more extensive than scripture. It is an error to think that the Christian faith derives all teachings from scripture. Those who have fallen into this error often think the Catholic Church is wacko for having so much that does not come from scripture.

You are right. Catholic teachings DON’T come from scripture. The come directly from Jesus, the fullness of revelation. He taught everything directly to the apostles who handed down everything the same way Jesus did, by Tradition. They did this by teaching how to worship, by their examples, and by organizing what they learned from Jesus and teaching this Gospel in the form of the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer.

But these men themselves don’t know. Is it not true that the catholic church itself admits it does not know with certainty who is in heaven?

Just like all the Catholic Church knows, it is given to us by revelation. God has revealed to us that certain persons are in heaven. About those we have not revelation, we don’t know.

This is not what i’m referring to. I’m referring to the context in which the writers of scripture write.

Well, of COURSE not! If you were to accept that the context of the NT is the Catholic Church, it would drastically change how you interpret it!

 

[andzy]

Chapter and verse please.

And where is this other “Divine Revelation” that you speak of? Please be specific so i don’t misunderstand you. Who outside of Scripture is getting this “Divine Revelation” about this? When did they receive it?

Who are the successors of the writers here that are telling you this? Is this the Sacred Tradition that i hear so much about?

If you ask rhetorical questions, please say so, otherwise people will attempt to explain to you things that have been explained to you multiple times before.
Or if you don’t understand the answers given to you, please ask for explanation instead of ignoring the answers and repeating the same questions over and over .
Or if you don’t agree with the answers given to you over and over again, please just say so and don’t pretend as if you sincerely want answers to your questions.
Thank you!

 

[MarcoPolo]

God clearly teaches that contacting the dead is destestable to him. God is not going to cause saints to sin by taking the place of the Holy Spirit, nor by taking the place of Jesus.

No they are not taking Jesus’ place. They glorify Him. To state what you did is to deny that Christ shares his holiness with us, and permits us to share in His Divine nature, and will give us characteristics of angels. It is not a substitution. Saints are but specks of dust without the permission of God. It is only in Him that any of us have holiness.Hebrews 12:10 God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.If you have been on the forums long enough, you should know by now that we do not worship saints nor substitute anyone for God. To say so is to bear false witness against the Church and Christ Himself.

p.s. people in heaven are not dead. They are more alive than you or I.

 

[mozart-250]

Just a couple of comments:

This thread is confusing at least three issues
(1) Whether the awareness physically dead (yes they are dead physically) saints have awareness (at least to some extent) concerning events on earth.
(2) Whether or not physically dead saints pray and intercede for physically alive saints on planet earth.
(3) Whether it is right and proper to ask physically dead saints to intercede for physically alive saints

If issues 1 and 2 are true (which they just might be), that does not mean issue 3 is true.

One comment on Deuteronomy 18:10-14 which seems to be the prooftext against calling up the dead. This passage is in the context of occult practices like child sacrifice, witchcraft, sorcery, and spiritualism. Now test this hypothesis by asking which practice is unlike the other: child sacrifice, witchcraft, sorcery, spiritualism, asking a dead saint in heaven to pray for you. Hmm. maybe in context “calling up the dead” means perhaps something different.

Now carry on, but please don’t abuse Scripture.