Protestants: Are people in heaven aware of what happens here?

[justasking4]

If you ask rhetorical questions, please say so, otherwise people will attempt to explain to you things that have been explained to you multiple times before.
Or if you don’t understand the answers given to you, please ask for explanation instead of ignoring the answers and repeating the same questions over and over .
Or if you don’t agree with the answers given to you over and over again, please just say so and don’t pretend as if you sincerely want answers to your questions.
Thank you!

These are not rhetorical questions. What the problem is that those that try to answer my questions are not really doing so. Much of what is given as an answer is an assertion and not an answer. Take Sacred Tradition. When i ask for specific examples, much of what i get is --look at the catechism and not examples and why this is a Sacred Tradition. Secondly, i’m seeing more and more mind reading going on instead of a dialogue. Some repetition has to go on since different people engage.

So don’t pretend that you know something about me that you don’t. I don’t do it to you so don’t do it to me.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2820528]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
And where is this other “Divine Revelation” that you speak of? Please be specific so i don’t misunderstand you. Who outside of Scripture is getting this “Divine Revelation” about this? When did they receive it?
guanophore
John 15:15 “for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

Since Jesus revealed EVERYTHING to His apostles and sent the Holy Spirit to teach (explain) this revelation to the apostles
then the apostles knew everything in regards to salvation.

Therefore,

There is no teaching of scripture in the Old testament, and there is no teaching of scripture in the New Testament that adds to what the apostles learned from Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The apostles could not have learned any additional teachings when the New Testament was written, because that would have made Jesus a liar. If Jesus taught them everything, then there is no other doctrine they could learn from scripture.

The apostles handed down this full and living Gospel to their successors, the bishops of the Church. This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

Therefore since everything Jesus taught the apostles was handed down in Tradition TO EVERY GENERATION and this Tradition contains all the Church believes, then no teaching was “lost”, none was forgotten"

Therefore all doctrines that God has revealed have come through Jesus, who taught all to His apostles, who handed them all down in Tradition.

What then am i to make of doctrines that your church teaches that the apostles never taught? There is no Marian tradition of an her being immaculately conceived or assumed in the 1st-2nd century of the church.

guanophore
Not a single teaching of the Catholic Church, and not a single teaching of the Gospel, which is the source of all saving truth, comes from the bible.

Am to understand that you believe no teaching comes from the Bible? Please clarify.

 

[guanophore]

These are not rhetorical questions. What the problem is that those that try to answer my questions are not really doing so.

Oh, you got plenty of answers, you just didn’t like them!

Much of what is given as an answer is an assertion and not an answer.

You have to take into account that you have already made up your mind what the answer is, therefore, any response you get to the contrary will seem like a baseless assertion to you.

Take Sacred Tradition. When i ask for specific examples, much of what i get is --look at the catechism and not examples and why this is a Sacred Tradition.

Your mind is closed, so you cannot receive any instruction on this point. Furthermore, I now realize that you did not come here looking for answers, you came here with your mind already set against Catholicism, and you seem to want to show Catholics that what they believe is wrong by asking these questions.

Secondly, i’m seeing more and more mind reading going on instead of a dialogue. Some repetition has to go on since different people engage.

It is post reading, not mind reading. Your posts have clearly indicated that you think Sacred Tradition does not exist. Since a “list” is not produced for you, and “it isn’t in scripture” it does not exist. This is the world according to ja4.

So don’t pretend that you know something about me that you don’t. I don’t do it to you so don’t do it to me.

Oh, but you DO ja4! You have said that our beliefs are assumptions and speculations of men. You have said that only reading scripture will make a person a mature Christian. Therefore, since we do believe these things, you must know that we have been duped by pagan practices that crept into the church, and that we don’t realize our leaders are teaching false doctrines because we don’t use the Bible as our rule of faith.

What then am i to make of doctrines that your church teaches that the apostles never taught?

I think it is quite clear what you make of them, ja4. You have repeatedly informed us that they are speculations and have no evidence to support their validity.

There is no Marian tradition of an her being immaculately conceived or assumed in the 1st-2nd century of the church.

Since you don’t accept any of the Sacred Tradition as being valid at all, what difference would that make, even if it were true, which it is not?

Am to understand that you believe no teaching comes from the Bible? Please clarify.

The bible is a book. Books do not teach. Books contain information. You were taught by someone, outside of the biblical record, to disregard Catholic doctrine and Teaching as false.

Catholic Teaching comes from Jesus, not from the Bible. The Bible contains some of this teaching, as it has been divinely recorded under the inspiration of the HS.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The Transfiguration is not a prayer but an actual appearance of Moses etc.
guanophore
If your understanding of prayer is so small that it cannot contain a supernatural experience, then I guess you cannot grasp many types of prayer. The point is that during the transfiguration, Jesus was conversing with the “dead”, as you call them.

I checked out what the New American Bible said in its footnotes for anything like what you are claiming here. There is no mention of this event in real time being understood as a prayer. Do you have some other catholic sources that claim as you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
You don’t know this. No one knows the nature of the afterlife in reagrds to issues like this.
guanophore
Actually, those who have received the fullness of Divine Revelation know some very important things about the afterlife.

Are these popes and church fathers? If so do they claim their insights are of Divine revelation?

guanophore
One of them is that the saints are alive in heaven, and they can intercede for us here on earth.

Would happen to have the name of this person?

 

[guanophore]

I checked out what the New American Bible said in its footnotes for anything like what you are claiming here. There is no mention of this event in real time being understood as a prayer. Do you have some other catholic sources that claim as you do?

Don’t derail the thread, ja4. Read the title. “Are people in heaven aware”. In the passage about the Transfiguration, we read that two persons, whose bodies are no longer alive on earth, appear to Jesus and have a conversation with him that demonstrates they are aware of what is going on here. They were talking to Him “about his upcoming departure, which He was to accomplish in Jerusalem”. This seems to be clear evidence that persons who have passed on can and are aware of things here on earth.

Are these popes and church fathers? If so do they claim their insights are of Divine revelation?

Many of the saints have had divine revelations. Yes, they claim them to be from God. Some have had horrendious encounters with the devil and his minions also.

Would happen to have the name of this person?

Mary, the mother of Jesus, is alive in heaven, and intercedes for the saints on earth.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I checked out what the New American Bible said in its footnotes for anything like what you are claiming here. There is no mention of this event in real time being understood as a prayer. Do you have some other catholic sources that claim as you do?

guanophore
Don’t derail the thread, ja4. Read the title. “Are people in heaven aware”. In the passage about the Transfiguration, we read that two persons, whose bodies are no longer alive on earth, appear to Jesus and have a conversation with him that demonstrates they are aware of what is going on here. They were talking to Him “about his upcoming departure, which He was to accomplish in Jerusalem”. This seems to be clear evidence that persons who have passed on can and are aware of things here on earth.

Did you read what i wrote in context? i was showing you from a catholic source on this passage that showed it had nothing to do with prayer.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Am to understand that you believe no teaching comes from the Bible? Please clarify.

guanophore
The bible is a book. Books do not teach. Books contain information. You were taught by someone, outside of the biblical record, to disregard Catholic doctrine and Teaching as false.

Catholic Teaching comes from Jesus, not from the Bible. The Bible contains some of this teaching, as it has been divinely recorded under the inspiration of the HS.

So you are saying that the catholic church does not base any of its teachings on the Scriptures?

Secondly, where is the only place we find the original teachings of Jesus?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
These are not rhetorical questions. What the problem is that those that try to answer my questions are not really doing so.
guanophore;
Oh, you got plenty of answers, you just didn’t like them!

This is also true of you and others.

 

[guanophore]

Did you read what i wrote in context? i was showing you from a catholic source on this passage that showed it had nothing to do with prayer.

Yes, you are trying to derail the thread, which is about whether people who have passed on are aware. You were given two examples, one of Samuel and Saul, where Samuel tells Saul that he and his sons will be with him the next day (sure seems like he knew what was going on) and one about Jesus conversing with Elijah and Moses about his upcoming departure (sure seems like they knew what was going on).

I think you want to change the subject because you don’t want to admit that the Catholic position may be right.

 

[justasking4]

Yes, you are trying to derail the thread, which is about whether people who have passed on are aware. You were given two examples, one of Samuel and Saul, where Samuel tells Saul that he and his sons will be with him the next day (sure seems like he knew what was going on) and one about Jesus conversing with Elijah and Moses about his upcoming departure (sure seems like they knew what was going on).

I think you want to change the subject because you don’t want to admit that the Catholic position may be right.

Where do the scriptures say these events are the norm for the dead? Did Saul try to contact Samuel by prayer?

 

[guanophore]

Where do the scriptures say these events are the norm for the dead? Did Saul try to contact Samuel by prayer?

The topic, ja4, is about whether dead people are aware of what goes on here on earth. These examples demonstrate that they can be. Where do the scriptures indicate this is NOT the norm? Did Jesus try to contact Elijah and Moses by prayer? Those questions might be appropriate for a new thread. If you and the OP are both in agreement that it has been adequately demonstrated by scripture that the question has been answered in the affirmative, then I will succumb to your efforts to change the topic.

In the examples given, are persons who have passed on aware of earthly events? Yes, or No.

 

[justasking4]

The topic, ja4, is about whether dead people are aware of what goes on here on earth. These examples demonstrate that they can be. Where do the scriptures indicate this is NOT the norm? Did Jesus try to contact Elijah and Moses by prayer? Those questions might be appropriate for a new thread. If you and the OP are both in agreement that it has been adequately demonstrated by scripture that the question has been answered in the affirmative, then I will succumb to your efforts to change the topic.

In the examples given, are persons who have passed on aware of earthly events? Yes, or No.

No because they are asleep. It does not mean though that if God so wills He can cause them to awaken as He did when He raised the dead in the gospels. Those miracles are not the norm. People usually stay dead.

 

[agangbern]

Yes and no.

Because dead and death have common earthly meanings that none of us (saint and sinner) are exempt from.

And the Bible uses the words dead and death and that sense also (there are scriptures that say Jesus died for example).

“Common earthly meanings”. That’s good point as far as earthly people are concerned. Adam is the model of the earthy man, while Jesus is the model of the heavenly man. It is sufficient that the disciple would be like his teacher. Wherever Jesus is, there also would his disciples be. And since Jesus is aware of what is happening here, therefore his disciples who are with him in heaven now are also aware of what is happening here.

 

[mozart-250]

“Common earthly meanings”

…that are Biblical.

Do you want me to list the Scriptures that say Jesus died.

If Jesus died being God the Son, the heavenly saints have also died.

 

[mozart-250]

Then how could you be so sure the Saints in Heaven cannot hear you? at least for the Catholics, we know our praying to the Saints have been answered for thousands of years.

I don’t. As I said, the problem with this topic is people claiming they know and understand a whole lot more than what they actually know.

 

[guanophore]

No because they are asleep. It does not mean though that if God so wills He can cause them to awaken as He did when He raised the dead in the gospels. Those miracles are not the norm. People usually stay dead.

Let’s not mix up our apples with our oranges, shall we? When Jesus rose, the BODIES of the saints were raised, and seen in the city. The body of Samuel did not appear to Saul. Do you believe the Bodies of Moses and Elijah were present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration?

Do you think the saints that John saw in Revelation were embodied?

 

[mozart-250]

Introductory comment:

This evening I was at a Bible study/Home fellowship meeting at a friends house who lost a 20 something year old daughter about a year ago with 9 other folks (most of which did not have a Catholic bone in them). During the study, the subject turned to heaven. Needless to say, that is a topic my friends have thought quite a bit about our last year.

So I thought I would ask some questions to the group for feedback. To a person, they all agreed that the physical dead had some awareness of earth. Hebrews 12:1 was cited as a Scripture to support that position.

They hadn’t really thought about those in heaven praying for us, but to a person, they all agreed that was something they could see God doing. The leader of the study noted that those in heaven would be praying in perfect faith, something we don’t really do here.

At the end of the meeting we had prayer for the father who lost the daughter (who has not been well himself). During that prayer, the leader had a word of knowledge/prophecy (yes we are Charismatic) about his daughter being in heaven and praying for her dad concerning his heart for the Lord.

The whole evening seemed to give consolation and comfort to my friends. And the idea of Chrissy praying for her dad similarly was comforting.

Just saying.

Oh “The Yankees lose”.

Thanks mozart! If I understand you correctly, you suspect that the prayers offered in Revelation by the angel of heaven were prayed to God and God gave them to the angel? Not the other way around? It seems the angel was offering them to God.

That interpretation seems equally as credible as the other.

The problem with arguing about the Bible over the internet is that both sides think the Bible proves/disproves more than it actually does.

…which begs the question, then why involve the angel at all? Why even invite us dust-ridden humans to join Him if He can manage it? Answer: Because He loves us and wants to share His glory and holiness with us. If we deny the gifts He has given to His angels and Saints, we deny His love.

Agreed in principle. Not convinced that the gift of listening to every single prayer offered up all across the globe is one of the gifts He has given His angels and saints. Maybe I’m just being stubborn or something, but I like a good reason to believe something is true before I buy into it.

And…

The Psalmist directly addresses those in heaven and the angels more than once. For example:Psalm 103 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.

Yup. Doesn’t say ask them to intercede for you

And try Zechariah 1:11-16 to see how the people asked the angel directly for intercession, the angel goes to God, and the people receive mercy.

Yup. An angel is not a physically dead saint in heaven. If I had an angel in front of me I would probably speak to it also. But since I do not, I don’t talk to angels either. I’m sort of a silent type and like to have a warm fuzzy that somebody is actually listening before I talk to him/her.

I would suggest this: stating the angels and saints cannot receive our prayers is contrary to Scripture. I would also suggest it takes away from realizing God’s sharing love in His glory.

How can it be contrary to Scripture unless you can first prove it ins Scripture.

Proving something is Scriptural / Unscriptural is more daunting than it seems. Generally we all assume Scripture proves more than it actually does.

 

[water]

I don’t. As I said, the problem with this topic is people claiming they know and understand a whole lot more than what they actually know.

We only need to know one things that our prayers have heard and granted through the intercession of the Saints. The way we know it is similar to the way we know how to drive the car without knowing how it actually works.

Having a little faith will help.

 

[water]

If** I** can sit here, in my bedroom, and talk to people all over the world & know their replies, what makes you think that the God of the Universe doesn’t have something at least that good for His beloved chlidren, who have gone home to Heaven???

your answer gives me a smile.

 

[water]

I do believe STRONGLY that the people in Heaven are very much aware of what is going on here – on Earth. My husband passed away nearly 7 years ago and I go fairly often to the cemetery. My oldest son retired after spending 28 in the Army JAG Corps and was looking for another job. When I went to the cemetery I asked my husband to please talk to God and help him get Mike a job – believe it or not, my son called me the next day and told me he had TWO job offers!!! I do believe strongly that my husband did talk to God about his son.

Thanks for your faith.