Protestants: Are people in heaven aware of what happens here?

[andzy]

These are not rhetorical questions. What the problem is that those that try to answer my questions are not really doing so. Much of what is given as an answer is an assertion and not an answer. Take Sacred Tradition. When i ask for specific examples, much of what i get is --look at the catechism and not examples and why this is a Sacred Tradition. Secondly, i’m seeing more and more mind reading going on instead of a dialogue. Some repetition has to go on since different people engage.

So don’t pretend that you know something about me that you don’t. I don’t do it to you so don’t do it to me.

FYI: I’m not pretending to know anything about you. In fact, I admit that I don’t know anything about you (other than that you’ve described yourself as a Protestant). And I am not mind reading, but post reading, as Guanophore said.
I stand by my point: if your questions aren’t rhetorical, then please indicate when you don’t fully understand or don’t accept the answers. Otherwise it’s frustrating when someone keeps asking the same questions as if no answer has been given to them. (And even when engaging different people on different threads, I think there are more appropriate forms of asking questions that have been discussed before, e.g., “would you say that…” or “I’ve been told that…” or “I believe that… because… even though some have said that…” instead of repeat the same question over and over.)
Also, you have to understand that you cannot get truly in-depth answers to all of your questions/discussions on this forum. A forum can only give you more or less the surface of the issue. That’s why you might be directed to look at Catechism, etc. (for apparently answers given to you don’t satisfy you). If you’re really interested in exploring what and why the Catholic Church teach, you have to be willing to study some theology. Are you?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Yup. An angel is not a physically dead saint in heaven. If I had an angel in front of me I would probably speak to it also. But since I do not, I don’t talk to angels either. I’m sort of a silent type and like to have a warm fuzzy that somebody is actually listening before I talk to him/her.

Thanks for you story about your prayer group! And I won’t rehash what I already said, but I don’t think the Zechariah passage is teaching us that it is ok to ask for an angel’s intecession only if that angel manifests himself physically to us, do you? I think that misses the point…the people didn’t go directly to God! And that’s why I said it is in Scripture. As well, in the Psalms, the Psalmist is indeed directly addressing angels and “heavenly hosts”. He refers to them as “you.” So why would you conclude that they can ideed hear us but instead you said it “Doesn’t say ask them to intercede for you”. So we can ask them to give praise with us, but somehow they aren’t to intercede for us, even though they can hear us?? Do you see what I am saying? That’s plenty good reason for me to utilize the wonderful gifts God has given us! Including the angels!

And I am not criticizing you for not praying through angels or saints. You should have faith in it first. I think it is fantastic if you pray to Christ!!!

 

[justasking4]

andzy;2824282]FYI: I’m not pretending to know anything about you. In fact, I admit that I don’t know anything about you (other than that you’ve described yourself as a Protestant). And I am not mind reading, but post reading, as Guanophore said.

Questioning people’ motives is a form of mind reading. If you don’t udnerstand something i’ve posted then ask for a clarification.

I stand by my point: if your questions aren’t rhetorical, then please indicate when you don’t fully understand or don’t accept the answers. Otherwise it’s frustrating when someone keeps asking the same questions as if no answer has been given to them. (And even when engaging different people on different threads, I think there are more appropriate forms of asking questions that have been discussed before, e.g., “would you say that…” or “I’ve been told that…” or “I believe that… because… even though some have said that…” instead of repeat the same question over and over.)

As i’ve said previously, if you don’t understand something then ask for a clarification. Also many of the answers given shows a lack of depth of the catholic faith itself. If a person doesn’t know the answer then say so or i’ll look in to it. Just because one answer has been given doesn’t mean its adequate or that other questions and comments are not brought up. After all this is a discussion.

Also, you have to understand that you cannot get truly in-depth answers to all of your questions/discussions on this forum. A forum can only give you more or less the surface of the issue. That’s why you might be directed to look at Catechism, etc. (for apparently answers given to you don’t satisfy you). If you’re really interested in exploring what and why the Catholic Church teach, you have to be willing to study some theology. Are you?

Yes. Catholicism is quite complex. On the other hand for the most part what i see here are just surface level responses and when pressed further i start getting a lot of personal attacks instead of dealing with the issues. I find it quite appalling in how a lot catholics engage and contend for their faith here.

 

[Marc1152]

Before my wife died, we had always talked about doing something specific ( I will spare you the exact details) to let the other one know that they had survivied death. Well by golly, she did it not long after her death. I prayed to her and asked her to do it again to be certain and it happened again a few days later ( our pre-agreed upon sign) .

Sounds to me like she has retained her awareness

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2823906]Let’s not mix up our apples with our oranges, shall we? When Jesus rose, the BODIES of the saints were raised, and seen in the city. The body of Samuel did not appear to Saul. Do you believe the Bodies of Moses and Elijah were present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration?

Yes

Do you think the saints that John saw in Revelation were embodied?

Good question. What John is having a vision of future events is he not?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

…that are Biblical.

Do you want me to list the Scriptures that say Jesus died.

If Jesus died being God the Son, the heavenly saints have also died.

James 2:26 defines death as simply seperation of body and soul or spirit. In the gospels we know that Jesus gave up his spirit, thus seperating it from his body. In short, Jesus died, but he did not cease to exist.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Before my wife died, we had always talked about doing something specific ( I will spare you the exact details) to let the other one know that they had survivied death. Well by golly, she did it not long after her death. I prayed to her and asked her to do it again to be certain and it happened again a few days later ( our pre-agreed upon sign) .

Sounds to me like she has retained her awareness

or some demon was paying attention to what you agreed on.

beside, prairieghosts.com/houdini.html

 

[Marc1152]

or some demon was paying attention to what you agreed on.

beside, prairieghosts.com/houdini.html

Or…There is an afterlife and survival of death.

Place your bets…

If I bet there is one and prepare, no harm done if there isnt anything… If you bet there is nothing and are wrong… youre screwed.

 

[Tweety]

Mark1152,

Maybe, just maybe.… GOD made it happen!!!

For me it is not hard to believe that God allowed your wife to fulfil her promise to you.

I am so happy that you got your sign.

Praise Jesus! and God’s peace to you.

 

[Benadam]

In his Epistles St Paul revealed that conscious awareness outside of the body was a part of his view. When he wrote about a man who went up to the third heaven outside of the body or in he didn’t know. This man who many believe was Paul himself when left for dead, experienced sights and sounds while in the body or out, Paul explained, he didn’t know. St Paul would not have had to question whether it was experienced inside the body or not unless he believed that parted souls are conscious, aware, and able to experience the reality presented to them.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

or some demon was paying attention to what you agreed on.

beside, prairieghosts.com/houdini.html

Or an angel.

 

[mozart-250]

And I am not criticizing you for not praying through angels or saints. You should have faith in it first. I think it is fantastic if you pray to Christ!!!

This may be Protestant heresy but I have concluded that properly understood your praying through angels and saints falls into the category of “disputed things” mentioned in Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8 (disputed thing may not be the right term but it is what I am used to).

What a disputed thing is is something:

• Not condemned in Scripture
• Some Christians have no problem with practicing
• Other Christians have good reason not to practice

An example of a disputed thing might be drinking alcohol in moderation. Now I personally don’t for a number of reasons, but I do realize it is not condemned in Scripture unless you cross certain lines and I have no problems with Christians that do. Similarly I have my reasons for not praying through saints and angels, but if I understand you correctly, I can’t see it condemned in Scripture (maybe I’m dense and Scripturally illiterate) unless you cross certain lines.

With disputed things, St. Paul seems to be (if you read the passages) more interested in maintaining the unity of the Spirit and getting both sides to accept each other than resolving the issue in question.

Again, this may be Protestant heresy, but it is what I believe.

So carry on.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have my reasons for not praying through saints and angels, but if I understand you correctly, I can’t see it condemned in Scripture (maybe I’m dense and Scripturally illiterate) unless you cross certain lines.

By now I would hope you would have seen it exemplified in Scripture…but if you don’t see it, I commend you for your prayer life to Christ!

 

[guanophore]

FYI: I’m not pretending to know anything about you. In fact, I admit that I don’t know anything about you (other than that you’ve described yourself as a Protestant). And I am not mind reading, but post reading, as Guanophore said.
I stand by my point: if your questions aren’t rhetorical, then please indicate when you don’t fully understand or don’t accept the answers. Otherwise it’s frustrating when someone keeps asking the same questions as if no answer has been given to them. (And even when engaging different people on different threads, I think there are more appropriate forms of asking questions that have been discussed before, e.g., “would you say that…” or “I’ve been told that…” or “I believe that… because… even though some have said that…” instead of repeat the same question over and over.)
Also, you have to understand that you cannot get truly in-depth answers to all of your questions/discussions on this forum. A forum can only give you more or less the surface of the issue. That’s why you might be directed to look at Catechism, etc. (for apparently answers given to you don’t satisfy you). If you’re really interested in exploring what and why the Catholic Church teach, you have to be willing to study some theology. Are you?

I believe he is doing some study, but his goal is to get us to abandon Catholicism, which is full of the “speculations of men”. Observe this quote from another thread:
"guanophore:

Maybe a better question would be, what do YOU do, when you think false doctrines and teachers have crept into the Church?

Confront them and expose them.

 

[sharonh28]

I was taught that the saints can intercede for us in our requests to God the Father. In Scripture Jesus tells us to ask the Father in His name. We do think of the saints as our “friends”. By their sainthood status in the Catholic Church, they are known to be in heaven. Most of our “friendly” saints are known to us because of some great gift they were given and used on this earth for the glory of God. Therefore, when we invoke a saints name, it is usually in acknowledgement of his/her particular gift. St. Jude patron of lost causes, Mary, (even higher in the kingdom than the saints) as patron of so many things, mothers, Queen of heaven, Our Mother,…St. Anthony, patron of lost objects and on and on. In our church tradition these saints are KNOWN to be with God. So many, in other faiths, think that we are praying TO that particular saint and classify that as worship. We only WORSHIP God, We are always praying only to God to answer our prayers, but by invoking the name of a special friend, who is obviously with him in heaven, it seems to me we are invoking the gift he has given that particular saint and asking Him to, in acknowledgement of that particular saints gift, to use that gift in our lives. God answers our prayers, as only he has the power to do. Even the Saints with him in heaven do not have the power to answer our particular prayer. To my mind, say, if we are doing a novena to St. Joseph for a particular problem (St. Joseph being the patron of fathers, workers, a happy death) maybe needing a job is the prayer for which the novena is said, Maybe, when God answers He is saying that He is pleased that we are remembering His gift to the saint in our request to Him. And of course when God answers a prayer we might not like the answer even though we invoked the memory of that saint and his gift. Of course all inhabitants of the Kingdom of God are saints, we just don’t have all the names and sometimes their gifts are only known to God. This is kind of off the topic of whether they are aware or not of our prayers. I agree that the heavenly kingdom is beyond and outside of our human experience, our knowledge of time, our knowledge of spiritual awareness in His kingdom.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Or an angel.

Maybe, but what was the angel’s name?

 

[cyberjacques]

The communion of saints would suggest that people in heaven are aware of everything that goes on here. If we are able to ask them to pray for us, then they would have to perceive our request. It would also stand to reason that being in the full presence of God and partaking of His inheritence would grant you a knowledge and understanding of the universe the likes of which we cannot fathom. I can’t imagine that the knowledge of what is happening here would be excluded from that.

 

[justasking4]

The communion of saints would suggest that people in heaven are aware of everything that goes on here. If we are able to ask them to pray for us, then they would have to perceive our request. It would also stand to reason that being in the full presence of God and partaking of His inheritence would grant you a knowledge and understanding of the universe the likes of which we cannot fathom. I can’t imagine that the knowledge of what is happening here would be excluded from that.

The idea that people are aware of what is going on here is goes agains what Ecclesiastes 9:6-10 teaches:

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

It doesn’t get much clearer than this.

 

[Ginger2]

I think a better example is Lazarus and the rich man.

I personally don’t believe those in heaven are aware of what we are going thru.

How can it be heaven if they see terrible things happening to their loved ones and have no power to stop it?

Isn’t heaven a happy place? It would seem more like hell to have to watch a child suffer at the hands of a brutal murderer or die a slow painful death from cancer and not be able to hold him and comfort him.

To hear our family praying to us to ask God to intercede and then asking us why God did nothing.

I just don’t think heaven is like that.

 

[cyberjacques]

The idea that people are aware of what is going on here is goes agains what Ecclesiastes 9:6-10 teaches:

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

It doesn’t get much clearer than this.

But you forget, the saints aren’t dead, and they aren’t in Sheol. Sheol, depending on the context, can mean either purgatory or hell. The saints are in heaven. And they are not dead, they share in the eternal life of Jesus Christ. This passage is analagous to the New Testament passage (the exact one escapes me at the moment) that says that the wicked have had all the reward they will ever get right here on earth. When they die, that’s it for them, they have no second chance. Also, keep in mind that this was being told to ancient Israelites who had almost no concept of an afterlife at that time.