Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[thecoach]

Could you please attend an RCIA class (finish it) before attempting to argue Catholic versus Protestant theology…

Yes, i suppose Catholics should study various Protestant theologies also… but i feel most Catholics on the forums have (more or less) done that…

I’m sorry, but it really rankles me when Protestants think they know Catholic theology and they so positively DO NOT!!

another source of information about the true Catholic faith can be found here at Catholic Answers…

I just don’t think it is right to attack something you do not understand…

In your one-sided opinion. Perhaps some of them actually have a better understanding of the Truth.

 

[Memaw]

In your one-sided opinion. Perhaps some of them actually have a better understanding of the Truth.

If thats true, then why do they disagree among themselves as to what is the truth?? 40,000 different denominations of them. Isn’t that what Pilot said to Jesus???, (What is truth??). To bad he didn’t listen to the TRUTH.

 

[JoeBlow]

Could you please attend an RCIA class (finish it) before attempting to argue Catholic versus Protestant theology…

Yes, i suppose Catholics should study various Protestant theologies also… but i feel most Catholics on the forums have (more or less) done that…

I’m sorry, but it really rankles me when Protestants think they know Catholic theology and they so positively DO NOT!!

another source of information about the true Catholic faith can be found here at Catholic Answers…

I just don’t think it is right to attack something you do not understand…

Sure. As long as the Catholics here will agree to stop telling us that OSAS means that you can sin all you like and that sola scriptura means that you can believe whatever you like, and the various other dishonest things you all say about us.

 

[thecoach]

If thats true, then why do they disagree among themselves as to what is the truth?? 40,000 different denominations of them. Isn’t that what Pilot said to Jesus???, (What is truth??). To bad he didn’t listen to the TRUTH.

Hmm, well lets see…you folks state that you are the original church, and that as time went on, the others, such as Orthodox split from you…therefore…who is it that got itself divided? Hmm?

 

[Memaw]

As for the first part of my statement; it can only be understood from this perspective. I was raised Catholic. My family went to mass and recieved the sacraments. This is Key because they did not live their faith. My father is twice divorsed (Catholic? I think not) However, he manipulated church law by insisting both his marriages we done civily. (Judging?) Yes because I saw and experienced his sin. How did being in Our Lords presence change his life? It did nothing for him. ( I am not arguing against the presence in the Eucharist) During his period of separation he had many affairs but still recieved the sacraments. As for me I received the sacraments but didn’t believe so they were voided for me in a sense. It wasn’t until I knew Jesus through his Holy Scriptures and in a developed prayer life that I could appreciate the sacraments and see the need for their grace. Keep in mind the aposltes knew Jesus in relationship long before they knew him in his Eucharist. Jesus didn’t ask his disciples to first have the Eucharist and then follow him but to follow him, live with him, know him and then gave them his Eucharsit so that when he departed he was always with them in the Holy Spirit and in body in the eucharist. There is a woman across the street from me who is from Germany originally. Her father is Italian. She refuses to go to mass though I’ve encouraged her to do so because of her experiences with the catholic church. She believes the priest are Evil. Her father works for the Mafia and he made all sorts of statements about how he paid of priest and extorted money etc… I tell her this is not the true church. The Catholic churches does not teach these things but she can’t differentiate between “real” Catholics and the ones who abused her. Many others with this similar stories. I’ve mentioned these things not to condemn. But to provide an understanding of what I am saying why people leave the chruch and this is a problem. Your right about the church teaches not to give sacraments to people who are outright sinning. My point was that they don’t search these people out (unless it is political as in the case of Carey) or it is overtly obvious. But the church is hoping that the grace of the sacraments will lead those to repentance.

I am going to try to respond to your many comments;

1. First of all if your father was married civilly and divorced civilly twice, than neither of his’ marriages’ were ever valid or Sacramental, according to Church law. There is no way he could ‘manipulate’ Church Law. If either of his marriages had been in the Catholic Church, it would be on his Baptismal record, (that info always goes beck to the Church he was baptized in). And to be married in the Catholic Church, you have to have a current Certificate of Baptism. and that info would be on it. If your Father received Holy Communion while being married outside the Church, than he was committing the sin of Sacrilege, and that is very serious. To receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord while in the state of mortal sin is very serious for whoever is doing it. The Church is NOT hoping that those who receive the Eucharist in the state of serious sin will be brought to repentance by the Grace of the Sacrament. The Church knows they receive NO Grace from the Sacrament but the are only sinning more and more seriously. Every time they do that it is another very serious sin on top of the others. NO Grace, just sin. It doesn’t matter if they are a lay person, a priest or a politician, it is a very serious situation.

2), I think you are really angry at your parents but you are taking it out on the Church and all Catholics that you think do not live up to your expectations. If thats the case, you will be very unhappy always because we are all part saint and part sinner. Thats why Our Lord gave us the Sacrament of Confession. God is ALL MERCIFUL to those who do repent and try again. We also have to nurture the virtue of forgiveness in our own soul, Forgive others as we would want to be forgiven. If I were you I would be soooo thankful that God has given me another opportunity to come back into the True Faith and just zero in on that and leave the rest up to God’s Mercy. You don’t have to “prove” anything to the rest of us Catholics, we pretty well understand human nature, just pray for everyone and ask God to touch them somehow in their life.
4) The Catholic Church doesn’t chase every Catholic down to see if they are sinning, we have a free will and we are responsible for our own actions and we do have to suffer the consequences of our sins. Hope thia helps, God Bless, Memaw.

 

[sambos671]

I am going to try to respond to your many comments;

1. First of all if your father was married civilly and divorced civilly twice, than neither of his’ marriages’ were ever valid or Sacramental, according to Church law. There is no way he could ‘manipulate’ Church Law. If either of his marriages had been in the Catholic Church, it would be on his Baptismal record, (that info always goes beck to the Church he was baptized in). And to be married in the Catholic Church, you have to have a current Certificate of Baptism. and that info would be on it. If your Father received Holy Communion while being married outside the Church, than he was committing the sin of Sacrilege, and that is very serious. To receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord while in the state of mortal sin is very serious for whoever is doing it. The Church is NOT hoping that those who receive the Eucharist in the state of serious sin will be brought to repentance by the Grace of the Sacrament. The Church knows they receive NO Grace from the Sacrament but the are only sinning more and more seriously. Every time they do that it is another very serious sin on top of the others. NO Grace, just sin. It doesn’t matter if they are a lay person, a priest or a politician, it is a very serious situation.

2), I think you are really angry at your parents but you are taking it out on the Church and all Catholics that you think do not live up to your expectations. If thats the case, you will be very unhappy always because we are all part saint and part sinner. Thats why Our Lord gave us the Sacrament of Confession. God is ALL MERCIFUL to those who do repent and try again. We also have to nurture the virtue of forgiveness in our own soul, Forgive others as we would want to be forgiven. If I were you I would be soooo thankful that God has given me another opportunity to come back into the True Faith and just zero in on that and leave the rest up to God’s Mercy. You don’t have to “prove” anything to the rest of us Catholics, we pretty well understand human nature, just pray for everyone and ask God to touch them somehow in their life.
4) The Catholic Church doesn’t chase every Catholic down to see if they are sinning, we have a free will and we are responsible for our own actions and we do have to suffer the consequences of our sins. Hope thia helps, God Bless, Memaw.

Where is point 3?

I left the church because of my parents ineffectual spirituality and thought it confered onto the whole church. I was mistaken but then again I was 15 and nothing… I’ll say it again…nothing lead me to think any differently at that time. There are 2 types of Catholics (though distracted would only say one are true catholics) Those who are faithful (though they may struggle with sin) and those that are secular (These don’t struggle with sin because it doesn’t matter to them). This could be said for all christianity. My family and my experiences are only with the latter rather than the former. If I had known any of the former I probably wouldn’t have left the Church. That is the problem I am mentioning. I’m not mentioning that catholics must be saints or any other other such statement. I admit that I’m wrong about the sacraments being given knowingly to people who are secular. But keep in mind my disscussion with a priest (studied in canonical law) has brought to my attention that priest sometimes allow for a gracious move when it comes to the sacraments in the hopes of someones salvation. Whether they make a practice of this or not I don’t know. I probably was angry at my family because of their horrid lifestyles. But they are Catholic. I am not and I’ve not been divorsed, and have maintained my family in the knowledge of God and the scriptures. My kids know more about the holy scriptures and Jesus and faith then I ever did as a Catholic going to perochial school. How is that? This is effective christianity. This is what the RCC wants as I’ve notted from the Catachism. Well, maybe the RCC has changed in the years since. But it was a problem then. I guess you guys are defensive. I’m not attaching the church teaching. I’m attacking practitioners (and I agree with distracted these aren’t the real catholics). Jesus said how will they know that you are my discipuli? How you love one another. No I know there won’t be a perfect church. I understand that. I’m coming from my experiences and note that I’m not the only one who has had these experiences. Yet I know you will imply that I am looking for a perfect church. Well, you’re wrong. I’m noting a problem as I see it. No more. It can only be dealt with by the HS and the "real"catholics to reach out to those (in their community) who are secular. I can already hear you guys thinking we already do. Ok, I’m sure you do and some others do but how wide spread is it? I don’t know plus I haven’t experienced it. And there are others like me in the same boat. This is my thought.

and, so fare thee well: Thou never shalt hear herald any more - Henry V

 

[piojunbabia]

I think Catholics these days dont need to study Protrestant Theology. They already knew it very well. They just dont realize they do. Schools and Universities teach Protestant Theology even Catholic schools and Universities do.

Ave Maria!

 

[Singinbeauty]

If thats true, then why do they disagree among themselves as to what is the truth?? 40,000 different denominations of them. Isn’t that what Pilot said to Jesus???, (What is truth??). To bad he didn’t listen to the TRUTH.

Now it’s 40,000???

Over exageration anyone?

And how do you know that Pilot didn’t listen to TRUTH? Do you know him personally? You know his heart and soul? You know of his life after Christ was crucified? Wow, that’s impressive… to say the least.

You have catholics who differ on what TRUTH is. Just head over to the Traditional Catholic forum.

 

[Memaw]

Now it’s 40,000???

Over exageration anyone?

And how do you know that Pilot didn’t listen to TRUTH? Do you know him personally? You know his heart and soul? You know of his life after Christ was crucified? Wow, that’s impressive… to say the least.

You have catholics who differ on what TRUTH is. Just head over to the Traditional Catholic forum.

He had Jesus Crucified didn’t he??? Do ‘u’ know of his life afterwards?? Wow thats impressive that you know so much, to say the least!!!
As for the 40,000, that comes from a protestant source my dear. and it keeps growing.
Catholics may differ, they have a free will, but the Church doesn’t!!!

 

[Memaw]

Sure. As long as the Catholics here will agree to stop telling us that OSAS means that you can sin all you like and that sola scriptura means that you can believe whatever you like, and the various other dishonest things you all say about us.

Sure as long as protestants stop telling us that OSAS it doesn’t really matter when you sin because Jesus has paid the price and we are in HIS hands and nothing can snatch us from Him. etc. I have been told that by many protestants. And when they stop interpreting the bible to suit themselves. Why do you think there are over 40,000 different protestant denominations?? Because they can’t agree on whose right. There is only one Catholic Church, over 2,000 years old, and Christ promised that HIS Church would never error. And it hasn’t.

 

[Memaw]

Hmm, well lets see…you folks state that you are the original church, and that as time went on, the others, such as Orthodox split from you…therefore…who is it that got itself divided? Hmm?

The Orthodox separated from the authority of the Pope but they are still Catholic in what they believe, the 7 Sacraments, Valid priesthood, and all Catholic teaching, We are NOT divided on Doctrine. BIG difference. The Catholic Church didn’t ‘get’ itself divided. As long as there is life on this earth, there will probably be schisms and heresies to contend with. BUT the TRUTH still stands!

 

[Molly2000z]

right… I may not know every single tenet of, say, Methodism… but i am not going to spout off about what they believe either…

Jesus said we would be 'hated by all" because of Him…

So… What church is the most hated in the world?? :coffeeread:

I think it’s a religion, not a church and I would say that right now members of the Moslem faith are having a pretty hard time of it.

In the past years it’s also been members of the Jewish faith.

Because of a few errant priests and Cardinals the Catholic have an image problem right now.

 

[Singinbeauty]

He had Jesus Crucified didn’t he??? Do ‘u’ know of his life afterwards?? Wow thats impressive that you know so much, to say the least!!!

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have known TRUTH afterwards and confessed Christ crucified. History books just don’t tell us one way or another. So before you go condemning him to eternal Hell I would wait to find out if he is there in Heaven when you get there. That was my point.

As for the 40,000, that comes from a protestant source my dear. and it keeps growing.

Back it up, source please. If you can’t provide the source, then don’t state it as if it is fact.

Catholics may differ, they have a free will, but the Church doesn’t!!!

So who is right? Traditional or other catholics? What about Orthodox? Even within the Catholic Faith there are varying beliefs all included and accepted under the Catholic umbrella…

 

[PerryJ]

It is much easier for a Protestant to understand Catholicism than vice versus. The reason being is that Protestantism is not a defined theology. It is an amalgamation of many different theologies with varying beliefs and doctrines. People within the Catholic faith may not agree with their faith; however, there is just one faith and one belief.

I have see posts that Protestant beliefs are very similar. That is not necessarily true. There are wide differences between denominations concerning predestination, justification, sanctification etc. As a former Protestant that studied his way to the Catholic faith these differences exist.

I believe it would be helpful for Protestants to state their denomination or at least their basic belief on the subject being discussed. Catholics on this forum are often defending challenges from various beliefs and points of view all at once. It also gives the Protestant the advantage of never having to defend their own faith.

 

[Peter_J]

It is much easier for a Protestant to understand Catholicism than vice versus. The reason being is that Protestantism is not a defined theology. It is an amalgamation of many different theologies with varying beliefs and doctrines. People within the Catholic faith may not agree with their faith; however, there is just one faith and one belief.

I have see posts that Protestant beliefs are very similar. That is not necessarily true. There are wide differences between denominations concerning predestination, justification, sanctification etc. As a former Protestant that studied his way to the Catholic faith these differences exist.

I believe it would be helpful for Protestants to state their denomination or at least their basic belief on the subject being discussed. Catholics on this forum are often defending challenges from various beliefs and points of view all at once. It also gives the Protestant the advantage of never having to defend their own faith.

Well said. I find it helps greatly if a discussion is focused on discussing either

• differences among small-c catholics (in particular, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans) or
• differences between small-c catholics and Evangelical Protestants

 

[Peter_J]

I have see posts that Protestant beliefs are very similar. That is not necessarily true. There are wide differences between denominations concerning predestination, justification, sanctification etc. As a former Protestant that studied his way to the Catholic faith these differences exist.

See also.

 

[Memaw]

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have known TRUTH afterwards and confessed Christ crucified. History books just don’t tell us one way or another. So before you go condemning him to eternal Hell I would wait to find out if he is there in Heaven when you get there. That was my point.

Back it up, source please. If you can’t provide the source, then don’t state it as if it is fact.

So who is right? Traditional or other catholics? What about Orthodox? Even within the Catholic Faith there are varying beliefs all included and accepted under the Catholic umbrella…

Where in the world did you get the idea I condemned Pilot to Hell??? I think I would settle down and take it easy if I were you. And PLEASE don’t put words in my mouth. I am capable of speaking for myself.

If you want the source of where the 40,000 came from you need to watch the “Journey Home” program where Marcus Grodi interviews people that have left protestant churches and came into the Catholic Church, they are the ones that have said that many times. Its on EWTN Catholic Cable network, on Monday nights, 7 pm CST. You might even learn about the reasons why they became Catholic. Many of them are protestant ministers from many different denominations. I am not the only one who has stated the 40,000 different denominations.

You are VERY wrong about varying beliefs in the Catholic Faith. ALL Catholics united with the POPE believe the same thing all over the world!!! The Doctrine is the same for ALL. Customs may vary, devotions may vary, but the Doctrine NEVER does. You really need to know what you are talking about before you make a statement like that. Orthodox believe the same as Roman Catholics do but they are in schism and are not under the authority of the Pope. BUT they have kept the Faith and valid priesthood, 7 Sacraments and the whole works.

 

[Memaw]

It is much easier for a Protestant to understand Catholicism than vice versus. The reason being is that Protestantism is not a defined theology. It is an amalgamation of many different theologies with varying beliefs and doctrines. People within the Catholic faith may not agree with their faith; however, there is just one faith and one belief.

I have see posts that Protestant beliefs are very similar. That is not necessarily true. There are wide differences between denominations concerning predestination, justification, sanctification etc. As a former Protestant that studied his way to the Catholic faith these differences exist.

I believe it would be helpful for Protestants to state their denomination or at least their basic belief on the subject being discussed. Catholics on this forum are often defending challenges from various beliefs and points of view all at once. It also gives the Protestant the advantage of never having to defend their own faith.

I agree, when you know the truth, it is hard to understand something that is misinterpreted or is in error. If someone tries to tell you that 2+2=5 and they bend over backwards trying to explain it to you, can you understand it???

 

[Singinbeauty]

Where in the world did you get the idea I condemned Pilot to Hell??? I think I would settle down and take it easy if I were you. And PLEASE don’t put words in my mouth. I am capable of speaking for myself.

What did you mean by the following then?

Isn’t that what Pilot said to Jesus???, (What is truth??). To bad he didn’t listen to the TRUTH.

If he didn’t listen to TRUTH then where would he be? Simple logic says Hell. So by you saying he didn’t listen what does logic dictate? I am not trying to put words in your mind. Just trying to show what you say leads me to believe where you are going with the thought. Maybe more information would not lead to someone misinterpreting what you are trying to say…

If you want the source of where the 40,000 came from you need to watch the “Journey Home” program where Marcus Grodi interviews people that have left protestant churches and came into the Catholic Church, they are the ones that have said that many times. Its on EWTN Catholic Cable network, on Monday nights, 7 pm CST. You might even learn about the reasons why they became Catholic. Many of them are protestant ministers from many different denominations. I am not the only one who has stated the 40,000 different denominations.

You make the assertion, show the proof. I don’t have to go looking for it. Burden of proof lies with you my dear since you are the person who states it as a fact.

By the way, you are taking this ‘information’ from people who have LEFT being protestant to being catholic. I would like this info from a protestant source. Please provide. Otherwise, stop spreading this around please…

You are VERY wrong about varying beliefs in the Catholic Faith. ALL Catholics united with the POPE believe the same thing all over the world!!! The Doctrine is the same for ALL. Customs may vary, devotions may vary, but the Doctrine NEVER does. You really need to know what you are talking about before you make a statement like that. Orthodox believe the same as Roman Catholics do but they are in schism and are not under the authority of the Pope. BUT they have kept the Faith and valid priesthood, 7 Sacraments and the whole works.

All you need to do is go to the Traditional Catholic forum on THIS site to see the varying beliefs. The Church is made up of its members, if they can’t agree how can it be ‘one’?

Wanna know the answer? Because the Body of Christ (protestant and catholic) are the Church. As a body we each perform a different function to move the Body through this broken world. Do hands do the same as the tongue? Does the liver do the same thing as a knee? No, each has another purpose and way of moving the Body. It is one, just performing different tasks but all moving in the same direction. To God… THIS is how we are ONE.

 

[PerryJ]

What did you mean by the following then?

If he didn’t listen to TRUTH then where would he be? Simple logic says Hell. So by you saying he didn’t listen what does logic dictate? I am not trying to put words in your mind. Just trying to show what you say leads me to believe where you are going with the thought. Maybe more information would not lead to someone misinterpreting what you are trying to say…

You make the assertion, show the proof. I don’t have to go looking for it. Burden of proof lies with you my dear since you are the person who states it as a fact.

By the way, you are taking this ‘information’ from people who have LEFT being protestant to being catholic. I would like this info from a protestant source. Please provide. Otherwise, stop spreading this around please…

All you need to do is go to the Traditional Catholic forum on THIS site to see the varying beliefs. The Church is made up of its members, if they can’t agree how can it be ‘one’?

Wanna know the answer? Because the Body of Christ (protestant and catholic) are the Church. As a body we each perform a different function to move the Body through this broken world. Do hands do the same as the tongue? Does the liver do the same thing as a knee? No, each has another purpose and way of moving the Body. It is one, just performing different tasks but all moving in the same direction. To God… THIS is how we are ONE.

I do not argue with the concept that Protestants and Catholics may make up the body of Christ. I would like to understand the analogy of the body parts better. As we have some Protestant denominations that believe in Total Depravity and some don’t. Some believe in free will and some don’t. Some support homosexual marriage and some don’t. Some believe in woman pastors and some don’t. The list goes on and on; however, I think you get my point. Even now we see churches splitting apart over doctrinal issues. Do you believe that there is one truth? Can God have many truths? I do not believe God has many truths. Your analogy sounds very positive; however, how does it work in the world if each Church supports it’s own truth?