Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[distracted]

All I can say is thank God I am not a part of the RCC! Just look at the joy and power and life in the music of non RCC’s and put it up next to the sad sounds that emanate from the RCC and you will get one of many hints as to where the true life and power is. Turn your radio on and listen to the Christian music you love. Guess how much was produced by Roman Catholics??? There is a very crucial reason why that is the case. Life versus religion. Grace versus law. So…to answer your question at the title of this thread…looks like we have done you a HUGE favor–we’ve given you a great big, joyous hint as to where salvation is…where life is. Take the hint while you still have time on this earth. There is no second chance.

Like I’ve said before: You have to BE Catholic to understand being Catholic…

too bad you don’t understand and may never… you are missing out whether you think so or not… and i’m sure you don’t think so…

but anyway… I’ve been “protestant” more or less (tho cradle catholic)… I’ve been filled w/ the Spirit… I’ve been to those churches you speak of… all that hoopin’ and hollerin… Ok… so it wasn’t bad & sometimes i even think of going there again… but never for keeps…

I wouldn’t trade ALl the good things Protestantism has to offer for what i have… and besides, i CAN have all that stuff protestants have… and still be Catholic…

and the funny thing is… as often as i tell myself that i mabye should go to one of those non-Cath churches… i never actually get aroundto doing so… hmmm… i guess its because i have found the fullness of truth…

and also… all that “joy” and stuff gets kinda old if you don’t have a good solid foundation in absolute truth… in every way… (none of the puzzle pieces is missing…) It also gets old when you don’t have the Real Presence…

actually, i went to a non-Catholic church about maybe a yr ago… i couldn’t even stay more than a few minutes… not evne sure i can explain why exactly… just couldn’t…

i started feeling lonely… Someone wasn’t there…

 

[Louie1983]

Then why doesn’t the Pope refute these things, so that all know the truth? Why let the media ‘continue in their lies’? When the Pope does not respond, the general public begins believing, that ‘all Catholics are nuts’. It serves no purpose, to remain silent. Silence often says that all are in agreement with what others are saying.

You should be smart enough to know that certain media outlets have their agendas and don’t wan’t the pope and the church to be protrayed in a positive light.

The pope holds weekly audiences at the vatican where he preaches on the bible, the saints and their works, the teachings of the church, and he offeres guidance. But the media won’t publish it because they don’t care, they are too consumed with things like scandals, recession, war etc.

 

[distracted]

Tons of times. The problem is, since Vatican II a lot of Catholics don’t realize that you have to use all-caps if you want to convince anyone. (Or, if you really want to convince them, make it bold face and underlined as well. )

well, if a person is trying to get a message accross to someone else and that someone else is deaf… well, is it the messenger’s fault?

 

[distracted]

I How can I accept Catholicism, if I believe from my heart, that any ‘statues’, used within a church, are a sign of IDOLATRY? Why are statues necessary at all, in order to follow God’s Word? ?

In the Old Testament, God TOLD the Israelites to make statues of cherubim and other beings… to adorn the altar… the tabernacle…

It is idolatry to worship (as most people seem to these days)

MONEY

SEX

POWER

PRESTIGE

TV

Anything that is not in line with God’s Word…

I think it is time for us Christians to worry about THAT kind of true idolatry… not statues decorating the Church…

 

[Peter_J]

Another ‘item’, is the naming of men, ‘FATHER’ or ‘HOLY FATHER’, when scripture tells me to call no man FATHER (ie. spiritual Father).

(emphasis added)

So in short, you interpret that verse differently than Catholics do, but you agree with us that it should not be taken literally?

 

[Louie1983]

In the Old Testament, God TOLD the Israelites to make statues of cherubim and other beings… to adorn the altar… the tabernacle…

It is idolatry to worship (as most people seem to these days)

MONEY

SEX

POWER

PRESTIGE

TV

Anything that is not in line with God’s Word…

I think it is time for us Christians to worry about THAT kind of true idolatry… not statues decorating the Church…

True, i agree with you here.

But is also a lack of knowledge from non-catholic denominations to say that we worship statues.

It’s just helps with prayer, we are not worshipping a piece of wood. I wonder how many protestants/lutherans carry pictures of their loved one in their pockets…so does that mean they are worshipping the photo? or their loved ones? Obviously not.

 

[distracted]

True, i agree with you here.

But is also a lack of knowledge from non-catholic denominations to say that we worship statues.

It’s just helps with prayer, we are not worshipping a piece of wood.

I wonder how many protestants/lutherans carry pictures of their loved one in their pockets…so does that mean they are worshipping the photo? or their loved ones? Obviously not.

yeah, i’ve said such things before… but i don’t get anywhere… of course, lately i haven’t been dealing w/ people face to face… long story why not…

frankly the worshipping statues thing is a boring issue for me… I think protestants bring up that so called argument because, well, maybe they’ve run out of … valid ones???

 

[Louie1983]

yeah, i’ve said such things before… but i don’t get anywhere… of course, lately i haven’t been dealing w/ people face to face… long story why not…

frankly the worshipping statues thing is a boring issue for me… I think protestants bring up that so called argument because, well, maybe they’ve run out of … valid ones???

you are quite welcome to email me privately if you want to discuss about your long story?
I’m a good listener and that usually helps.

Yeah pretty boring for me to but we have to defend it, wouldn’t want them to get the wrong idea about the church now would we?

 

[Peter_J]

He told us, that we don’t know how to pray, and thus, gave us The Lord’s Prayer. There is no mention of Mary in this prayer. Why would I assume that Mary has any specific ‘powers’ in order to make intercession for us, when Jesus Christ, Himself, has not given us special instructions to deal with this topic?

Thorwald, this may help (or may not): we Catholics believe that praying to Mary is something that happened right from the beginning of the Church, even though it wasn’t called “praying to Mary”. That particular phrase for it become popular several centuries ago, owing mainly to the influence of St. Thomas Aquinas. Before that, it was just called “asking Mary for prayers” etc. (Needless to say, we still say “asking Mary for prayers” as well.)

That’s not to deny the merit of your point. Certainly we should not overlook the fact that Mary is not mentioned in Christ’s answer to the question “Teach us to pray.” But, on the other hand, I think it would be jumping-to-conclusions if we were to say “The Lord’s prayer doesn’t mention Mary, therefore we should stop praying to her.”

 

[Memaw]

I hear you! There are, however a lot of other doctrines and beliefs carried out by the Catholic church, that I have trouble believing in. The ‘miracles thing’, is just one more ‘thing’.

How can I accept Catholicism, if I believe from my heart, that any ‘statues’, used within a church, are a sign of IDOLATRY? Why are statues necessary at all, in order to follow God’s Word? Another ‘item’, is the naming of men, ‘FATHER’ or ‘HOLY FATHER’, when scripture tells me to call no man FATHER (ie. spiritual Father). Another, is the glorification of MARY. All Christians know the story of Jesus Christ’s birth. We have to realize, that Mary was the mother of CHRIST (The Son of Man…lower than the angels). She is not the mother of Jesus, as Lord of Hosts (begotten above the angels). Christ, Himself, always glorifies His Father, The Lord God Almighty. He told us, that we don’t know how to pray, and thus, gave us The Lord’s Prayer. There is no mention of Mary in this prayer. Why would I assume that Mary has any specific ‘powers’ in order to make intercession for us, when Jesus Christ, Himself, has not given us special instructions to deal with this topic?

Don’t you protestants ever get tired of beating the same ole drums. If you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, study her Doctrines. You will see how the Church has protected and taught what Christ himself taught 2000 years ago. You seem to be very interested in what the Catholic Church does NOT teach or believe, how about spending as much time and effort learning what the Catholic Church truly teaches. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Like I’ve said before: You have to BE Catholic to understand being Catholic…

too bad you don’t understand and may never… you are missing out whether you think so or not… and i’m sure you don’t think so…

but anyway… I’ve been “protestant” more or less (tho cradle catholic)… I’ve been filled w/ the Spirit… I’ve been to those churches you speak of… all that hoopin’ and hollerin… Ok… so it wasn’t bad & sometimes i even think of going there again… but never for keeps…

I wouldn’t trade ALl the good things Protestantism has to offer for what i have… and besides, i CAN have all that stuff protestants have… and still be Catholic…

and the funny thing is… as often as i tell myself that i mabye should go to one of those non-Cath churches… i never actually get aroundto doing so… hmmm… i guess its because i have found the fullness of truth…

and also… all that “joy” and stuff gets kinda old if you don’t have a good solid foundation in absolute truth… in every way… (none of the puzzle pieces is missing…) It also gets old when you don’t have the Real Presence…

actually, i went to a non-Catholic church about maybe a yr ago… i couldn’t even stay more than a few minutes… not evne sure i can explain why exactly… just couldn’t…

i started feeling lonely… Someone wasn’t there…

Every time I go to a non-catholic funeral, I feel profoundly sad. Not a single prayer for the soul of the loved one. Yet if you read in the obituaries, there are those who write to their dead loved ones as tho they can read the paper. Deep down in the heart of us all is the desire to communicate with our loved ones that are with God. Whether we admit it or not.

In the Catholic Church, we call that the Communion of Saints. Prayer is ‘talking to God’ We can pray, or ‘talk’ to our loved ones too and the Blessed Mother is at the top of that list. What do we do when we pray or ‘talk’ to Mary, we ask her for her prayers. Just as I might ask you for your prayers. The big difference being, she is right there with God and has a profound place in Heaven and her prayers are always in line with the Will of God. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Augie1530]

This posting can also be put on the other foot as well I have seen a lot of well meaning catholic brothers and sisters who get in the face of protestants and not even politely engage in dialog but bash them with their extreme fundamentalist opinion of TRUE CHURCH teachings on Catholicism . As JonNC mentioned read up on Lutheran Theology before you bash the Lutherans or any other protestant, And protestants read some books on Catholic Theology that are written by catholics as the ones the protestants write are usually biased and full of prejudice and doctrinal error. and vice versa. Go to the source of the information NOT second hand opinions . And when do get involved in a debate please remember to be polite and curteous as this may just win over a persons heart and mind to be willing and open to conversion . Dont scare them off with your attitude . peace

 

[firstmode]

Dear Singinbeauty,

My bad, its only a slam dunk about 97% of the time. I know there are Protestants out there who DO have a correct teaching about contraception.

I know that the Wisconsin Lutheran Evangelical Synod and a certiain few indepenant Baptists have the correct teaching. The
WELS are even more strict than Catholics. Even NFP is not allowed!

May I ask for a link that defines your church’s teachings about contraception?

I try to keep track of these churches so that I can keep them as references when discussing contraception with certain Protestants who deny the sinfulness of contraception.

Sorry for lumping you in with the others.

Assemblies of God:

Birth Control

This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church’s Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.

Does the Assemblies of God have a position on birth control?
The command of God to mankind first mentioned in the Bible is found in Genesis 1:28: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.” This was was a command of God to procreate. God created human sexuality as the means of filling the earth and having stewardship over the earth. In Bible days marriage and children were considered normal life experiences (Genesis 2:23,24). Barrenness was seen as a curse from God (Genesis 29:31; 1 Samuel 1:3-11; 2:5). A large family was viewed as a sign of God’s blessing (Psalm 127:3-5). Then as is still true in many societies around the world today, children provided the social security system for the parents.

Some within the Church believe the commanded function of sexual relations to produce children to fill the earth and to increase the Church is so important that they forbid the use of any birth control methods. They believe any sexual act, even by married couples, that does not have the potential to produce a child is wrong. Within the Assemblies of God this view is rare.

In the Assemblies of God we believe there are valid reasons for delaying, limiting, or not having children. There are those who realize they may need more time to mature before trying to raise children. There may be those who should never be a parent. Financial matters must also be considered. Some couples decide to wait until they have finished their schooling before having children. Living in a country in which the lives of the parents and children are in constant danger due to religious persecution might be reason to use birth control to await a safer time for starting or expanding a family.

Still the normal expectation is that most Christians will marry and bring children into this world to be raised in the love and admonition of the Lord. In the past various groups, such as the Shakers, have tried to form religious communities based on total abstinence from marriage and sex. These groups rarely last beyond one generation for obvious reasons.

CONCERNS:

The use of chemically induced or surgical abortion as a means of birth control is flatly rejected. The Assemblies of God has an official position opposing abortion. Any birth control method that functions to destroy a fertilized egg, rather than actually preventing conception, is considered unacceptable. Every couple should take this into account when selecting methods of birth control.

Having children requires that parents make a commitment to raising their children to be competent, committed members of their society. This requires sacrifice of time and money that could have been used by the parents for themselves. Unfortunately, there are too many parents in our materialistic, self-centered, society who are having children, but are unwilling to commit themselves to the sacrifices required to raise children well.

This is also an issue for Christian couples. While we in the church recognize the legitimacy of good family planning and the use of birth control, we need to strike a balance. We must look beyond our ambitions and seek God in making these personal decisions. This is not to say every Christian couple must have children. It is simply to recognize that God’s plan for our lives may or may not include children. And regardless of circumstances, whether planned or unplanned, wanted or unwanted . . . children are a gift of God to be cherished. As Psalm 139:13-16 makes clear, the Lord is concerned about each person from the womb. Any decision to have or not have children should be made carefully and prayerfully.

 

[Thorwald]

These things have been regurgitated so long you think the explination would get out to everyone by now! But being in a Charitable mood I’ll pass on my meager knowledge to you and let you judge for yourself.
Statues: I saw a nice statue of Abraham Lincoln at the monument area in Washington DC. Its a spectacular thing. Huge! Now I don’t know one person from any country or religion that claim that us Americans worship the statue of Lincoln or Lincoln himself. Why do we have a statue of him at our nation’s capital? Because he is an admired man and people respect him and his values. Simple no worship going on there. The statues and pictures in the church represent people and scenes in the bible. They lead us to remember certain passages in scripture help us think about those specific events. As far as the Saints they are people who lived faithful lives that inspire us to live like them. There is nothing about worship. This discussion was flushed out in the 6th ecuminical council. Just like picuters they help us to remember.
Calling Priest Father: Jesus statement was Hyperboli. Do you think he would prevent you from calling your biological father; father or Dad? Its a study of hermenutics. Of course Jesus wouldn’t stop you from doing that. Also having lived in third world countries there is a tradition in some that I have visited that you call the tribal elder “father” this is a term of respect. We call the founding men of the United States the Founding Fathers. See? We haven’t transgresed Jesus statement here.
Now your statement about Mary falls very close to a Nestorius view of Mary. The question I have for you is this: Is Jesus the Man separate than Jesus the Divine? How does the incarnation work? See in the discussion of Mary you must understand that everything a Catholic believes about Mary Stems from what a Catholic believes about Jesus. So Like Nestorius you think that Mary is Christokos. Well, what are the theological implications of that? Did Mary Just give birth to a simple Mortal that was possessed by the Word? Did Mary give birth to Jesus who is the same eternal Word from the begining as well as the man? In your mind, does Jesus have two natures? Is he fully divine and fully human at the same time? Or is his humanity apart from his divinity kind of live an avatar? See how this view become mired in all sorts of issues? The Catholic Church settled this issue long ago and agreed that Mary is Theotokos. Tell what are the implications of that with regard to Jesus? No one thinks Mary has powers other than that she has recieved the promise we hope for! And being a part of the body of Christ she prays for us as even I pray for you. You do not worship me yet I pray for you. You can speak to me and let me know what you want me to pray specifically for. It is God who heals. It is God who works in the hearts of men. Yet we are encouraged to pray diligently for each other? Is it because we have power? No. Its because God is allowing us to participate in his work that he initiated and completes. We’re just blessed to come along for the ride. Mary works in much the same way. We hope for the ressurection of the body. The promise that Jesus gave his followers. So again what we believe about Mary has everything to do with what we believe about Jesus. As far as the lord’s prayer and the hail mary its a nonsequitur. The words to Mary (save the 2nd part) is taken strait from scriptures. Between greetings of Gabriel and Elizabeth. And remember that anything that is set aside or apart for a specific use is “holy” Mary is Holy and she is the Theotokos.

I care nothing about ‘remembrance’ statues. These are carnal things. God falls into a totally different category. It is written, that He is a ‘jealous’ God. If Jesus did not instruct us to carry out the above-mentioned items (statues, Mary, etc.), then I will never participate or accept these rituals.

Aaaron’s two sons were killed by fire from heaven, when they ‘added’ incense to the offering on the alter. The reason for their deaths, was because The Lord had not told them to do so. I find the same logic in your beliefs. I do not believe that God accepts these additions to His Word. You only ‘think’ He does. I believe that this is why the Protestant Reformation took place. God had to bring Christianity back to The Word, the same way that Christ Himself, had to correct the teachings of the Israelites in their synagogues.

The Catholic religion, is a religion of the gentiles. The scriptures tell us, that ‘all Israel shall be saved’. I believe that God has taken care of the ‘true’ Israelites (lost tribes, etc.), and has used these same people to bring about the Reformation. All of the Word of God that we have, was given unto us via Israelites (“If He called them Gods, unto whom the Word of God…”). I doubt very much, that God would now use gentiles in order to ‘teach’ His chosen people. I suppose that Catholics believe that He may, but I believe, that they are in darkness.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Several thoughts come to mind.

1. I would take this post more seriously if the obligation you suggest to study Catholic theology were similarly imposed on Catholics.
2. I don’t “attack” Catholic theology–ever. I do point out things I disagree with or don’t understand. Far more often I point out errors about, or misrepresentations of the Protestant faith.
3. The level of knowledge of Protestant theology on here varies greatly, I do on occasion respond to posts by Catholics (my mistake perhaps) that clearly misrepresent Protestant theology (I’m ready to swear off this board for good if I see one more post complaining about “30,000 versions of the Protestant religion, or words to that effect”).

Are you talking about the more then 37,000 non-Cathloic denominations in the world today

 

[sambos671]

I care nothing about ‘remembrance’ statues. These are carnal things. God falls into a totally different category. It is written, that He is a ‘jealous’ God. If Jesus did not instruct us to carry out the above-mentioned items (statues, Mary, etc.), then I will never participate or accept these rituals.

Aaaron’s two sons were killed by fire from heaven, when they ‘added’ incense to the offering on the alter. The reason for their deaths, was because The Lord had not told them to do so. I find the same logic in your beliefs. I do not believe that God accepts these additions to His Word. You only ‘think’ He does. I believe that this is why the Protestant Reformation took place. God had to bring Christianity back to The Word, the same way that Christ Himself, had to correct the teachings of the Israelites in their synagogues.

The Catholic religion, is a religion of the gentiles. The scriptures tell us, that ‘all Israel shall be saved’. I believe that God has taken care of the ‘true’ Israelites (lost tribes, etc.), and has used these same people to bring about the Reformation. All of the Word of God that we have, was given unto us via Israelites (“If He called them Gods, unto whom the Word of God…”). I doubt very much, that God would now use gentiles in order to ‘teach’ His chosen people. I suppose that Catholics believe that He may, but I believe, that they are in darkness.

You’ve kind of jumped topics here that don’t really follow. Lets see Jesus didn’t specifically say “make statues to remember scriptures” Ok. Jesus also didn’t specifically say “make an alter call” Nor did Jesus say “you must say the sinners prayer to be saved” Following your example of Aaron’s sons these are also additions all protestants should have the same fate. Yet the argument falls short. And actually if you think about it the Aaron example favors Catholicism. God expressed exactly how he wanted to do the sacrifice. Ie “this is how you do it”. They didn’t do it exactly that way and payed the consequences. The area of statues or pictures (Icons) for rememberance is silent. We know the temple had all sorts of elaberate carvings pictures depicting angles and heavenly scenes. God was not displeasedd with these. This is what St. Basil says with regard to certain practices

The church preserves many beliefs and practices that are generally accepted… Some are taken from written teaching; others have been passed on to us…by tradition of the Apostles…For if we try to reject any customs that have no written authority, on the ground that they are relatively unimportant, we would **unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals. Or rather, we would make our public profession a mere formula **and nothing more.

Which in many protestant circles there is nothing more than plain simple symbolism yet when he regarded Moses ST. Basil said

Why didn’t mighty Moses open all the parts of the tabernacle to everyone?.. And from all these people, he chose only one to be admitted to the shrine…And even this one not always, but on only one day in the year…So that he might gaze on the Holy of Holies amazed at the strangeness and novelty of the sight. Moses was wise enough to know that familiarity breeds contempt, while the unusual and unfamiliar naturally arouse a keen interest

This is the Catholic view with regard to these things. Catholics have maintained the deposit of the Apostles both written and unwritten so as not to injure the gospel and make it merely a symbolic effort towards salvation.
Then you jumped to the Jews and the nation of Israel. (I don’t understand the connection but) Did you not learn from the scriptures that even we believers in the Lord are grafted in to the branch? That we are the inheritors of the promise? What do you think the parable about a rich man who threw a party and invited his family and friends that did not show,where, He then made the party available to everyone who would come; was about? Biblical Judaism and Israel passed in 70 AD. But God’s promise is everlasting to all who will believe. We are adopted heirs scripture is clear on this point. We can claim Abraham and David. Do you think there is another salvation apart from Jesus? What do you think the book of Galatians is about? Can the Jews fulfill the law?

 

[Thorwald]

To: Sambos671,
(I could not ‘quote’ your posting.)

I follow what you are saying, but I fear any ‘addition’ to The Bible, that I cannot trace back to its origin. I do not see any need to believe in the ‘validity’ of these additions, in order to receive salvation, and continue to grow as a Christian. The Bible itself, without additions, is difficult enough to follow. Power given unto satan, in order to allow him to ‘test our faith’, is mind-boggling. Satan knows all of our weaknesses, and uses these weaknesses, in order to lead us astray. I understand that satan can only tempt us to a certain point (set by God), but he sure uses this ‘maximum’ more oft than not.

I do not follow any of the so-called Protestant religions. I simply follow the KJV Bible (not the New Version) that is in my possession. I have also ‘scanned’ the RC Bible (incl. the additional books), on the internet.

If I am to believe in the Word of God, then I must believe in the following;

1. All references to the story of Jesus Christ, and what He has witnessed as being true.
2. All Israel shall be grafted back in and saved.
3. We will return to the days of Noah (It appears to me, that we are close to being there).
4. There are those that say they are jews, but are not.
5. That the temptations will become so strong, that even the ‘elect’ must be careful.

From the research that I have done (and assuming that I can believe what was written by others), it appears that ‘jews’ refers only to the tribes of Judah & Benjamin. Most of the emphasis, is of course, on the tribe of Judah. The other 10 tribes appear to be ‘the missing tribes of Israel’. They may be ‘missing’ per our understanding, but I doubt very much that they have ‘ceased to exist’.

I also know that ‘all’ who believe (gentiles included), can receive salvation. I do not believe, however, that gentiles will become ‘annointed’ in the same fashion as Israel was. If we assume that we are in the ‘end times’ (even Christ mentioned this), then can I assume that the ‘grafting-in’ of the Israelites, has already been taking place for some time? If it has, then who are they? Which nations or peoples found in the world today, that we assume are gentiles, are actually Israelites? E. Raymond Capt (re-interpreted the Assyrian Tablets) believes that these tribes actually flow into the throne of England. Is he right or wrong? If he is right, then perhaps the Protestant Reformation may be more than we think it is. Perhaps also, the Germanic tribes (also flowing into the same throne) and the holocaust, and the two world wars, may also have some other significant reason for occurring.

 

[sambos671]

To: Sambos671,
(I could not ‘quote’ your posting.)

I follow what you are saying, but I fear any ‘addition’ to The Bible, that I cannot trace back to its origin. I do not see any need to believe in the ‘validity’ of these additions, in order to receive salvation, and continue to grow as a Christian. The Bible itself, without additions, is difficult enough to follow. Power given unto satan, in order to allow him to ‘test our faith’, is mind-boggling. Satan knows all of our weaknesses, and uses these weaknesses, in order to lead us astray. I understand that satan can only tempt us to a certain point (set by God), but he sure uses this ‘maximum’ more oft than not.

I do not follow any of the so-called Protestant religions. I simply follow the KJV Bible (not the New Version) that is in my possession. I have also ‘scanned’ the RC Bible (incl. the additional books), on the internet.

If I am to believe in the Word of God, then I must believe in the following;

1. All references to the story of Jesus Christ, and what He has witnessed as being true.
2. All Israel shall be grafted back in and saved.
3. We will return to the days of Noah (It appears to me, that we are close to being there).
4. There are those that say they are jews, but are not.
5. That the temptations will become so strong, that even the ‘elect’ must be careful.

From the research that I have done (and assuming that I can believe what was written by others), it appears that ‘jews’ refers only to the tribes of Judah & Benjamin. Most of the emphasis, is of course, on the tribe of Judah. The other 10 tribes appear to be ‘the missing tribes of Israel’. They may be ‘missing’ per our understanding, but I doubt very much that they have ‘ceased to exist’.

I also know that ‘all’ who believe (gentiles included), can receive salvation. I do not believe, however, that gentiles will become ‘annointed’ in the same fashion as Israel was. If we assume that we are in the ‘end times’ (even Christ mentioned this), then can I assume that the ‘grafting-in’ of the Israelites, has already been taking place for some time? If it has, then who are they? Which nations or peoples found in the world today, that we assume are gentiles, are actually Israelites? E. Raymond Capt (re-interpreted the Assyrian Tablets) believes that these tribes actually flow into the throne of England. Is he right or wrong? If he is right, then perhaps the Protestant Reformation may be more than we think it is. Perhaps also, the Germanic tribes (also flowing into the same throne) and the holocaust, and the two world wars, may also have some other significant reason for occurring.

Be careful please when comparing the reformation to the end times. I could easily say

10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved

is reflective of what was happening at the time of the reformation. However, fortunately, I believe this verse has more to do with Early Christianity and Rome than the End Times. Yet it is not inconcievable that (as does most prophesy) it has a double meaning. Unfortunately E. Raymond Capt. has a very vivid imagination and put a lot of work into his theory. Unfortunate because many white supremisist groups use his work to show their superiority and election of God over the rest of the world. These groups are often hate filled and misguided. This is what happened with the “Lost Tribes” of Israel. As the Northern Kingdom was being established Jehraboam wanted to solidify his leadership and created high pagan places of worship making the Levites redundant. Levites not on board with that or worshiping Pagan gods moved south to Judah. A representative of every tribe of the North eventually made their way down to Judah. So by the time the Assyrians destroyed the Northern Kingdom and displaced its citizens to Media all tribes were represented in Judah. It is supposed that the displaced Israelites were intergrated in other societies though we have an interesting story where lions were killing the new pagan populace so the Emperor brought in a rabbi from the Jews taken out to teach the new people in the northing kingdom how to worship and honor God.

As noted in St Basils words we do an injustice not pass on all traditions passed on by the Apostles. And note you can follow the non-written traditions because someone throughout the ages have commented on them.

 

[Memaw]

This posting can also be put on the other foot as well I have seen a lot of well meaning catholic brothers and sisters who get in the face of protestants and not even politely engage in dialog but bash them with their extreme fundamentalist opinion of TRUE CHURCH teachings on Catholicism . As JonNC mentioned read up on Lutheran Theology before you bash the Lutherans or any other protestant, And protestants read some books on Catholic Theology that are written by catholics as the ones the protestants write are usually biased and full of prejudice and doctrinal error. and vice versa. Go to the source of the information NOT second hand opinions . And when do get involved in a debate please remember to be polite and curteous as this may just win over a persons heart and mind to be willing and open to conversion . Dont scare them off with your attitude . peace

Look who has an attitude. Stating the truth should not be scary as the TRUTH will set you free. Free from error. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Thorwald]

Be careful please when comparing the reformation to the end times. I could easily say is reflective of what was happening at the time of the reformation. However, fortunately, I believe this verse has more to do with Early Christianity and Rome than the End Times. Yet it is not inconcievable that (as does most prophesy) it has a double meaning. Unfortunately E. Raymond Capt. has a very vivid imagination and put a lot of work into his theory. Unfortunate because many white supremisist groups use his work to show their superiority and election of God over the rest of the world. These groups are often hate filled and misguided. This is what happened with the “Lost Tribes” of Israel. As the Northern Kingdom was being established Jehraboam wanted to solidify his leadership and created high pagan places of worship making the Levites redundant. Levites not on board with that or worshiping Pagan gods moved south to Judah. A representative of every tribe of the North eventually made their way down to Judah. So by the time the Assyrians destroyed the Northern Kingdom and displaced its citizens to Media all tribes were represented in Judah. It is supposed that the displaced Israelites were intergrated in other societies though we have an interesting story where lions were killing the new pagan populace so the Emperor brought in a rabbi from the Jews taken out to teach the new people in the northing kingdom how to worship and honor God.

As noted in St Basils words we do an injustice not pass on all traditions passed on by the Apostles. And note you can follow the non-written traditions because someone throughout the ages have commented on them.

Thank you for your response. There was one other point that I wanted to make, but could not remember it at the time of my previous posting. Here it is;

The scripture tells us that eventually, Israelites currently spread throughout the world, will return to their homeland. So great is this event, that it will bear celebration greater than the annual feast & celebration of the passover. Who are these Israelites, that will return home? Are we to assume, that it is referring only to those that are currently called ‘jews’ throughout the world, or does it encompass many nations & peoples that we currently believe are gentiles? Depending on one’s interpretation, knowledge, wisdom from God, etc., ‘understanding’ by various people could cover an infinite of possibilities. One thing is for certain, and that is, this event will take place.

When you take what I have written in my previous posting, add the above addition, and look at the current situation of the majority of current day jews still “waiting on their Messiah” (Ie. denying Christ as their saviour), it makes me wonder if there are in fact other Israelites that we assume are gentiles.