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Peter_J
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BTW, for anyone who didn’t see it here is post #461 (just to set the record straight):
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Worthy5
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Moondweller, you have not yet shown how scripture is not subject to mutliple interpretations which would mean divine revelation cannot be know with certainty. What is your independent criterion to show this. Also what branch of Protestantism are you? God Bless
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Peter_J
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True, but I think we should give him a break – he did just admit that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach what he had previously claimed it did.
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1beleevr
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Zundrah: Congratulations on stepping out in faith, and following the calling of the Holy Spirit! Change is almost always somthing which invokes anxiety, fear, and of course risk and responsibility! But, the positive thing is, that we grow stronger in Him, when we step out, letting Him lead the way! May the Lord richly bless you and those who are dearest to you!!
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SHW
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That would be before the Schism.
This latest Schism happened in about 1472 A.D.Schism:
Some Eastern Church leaders were fighting amongst themselves (a power struggle) because of jealousy. There were four patriarchs and eventually one ended up with most of the power. When the pope tried to intervene, he was rebuffed. Name-calling, etc. by patriarchs against the pope incited hatred against him.
The Schismatic Church continues (in our own time period) its denial of the primacy of the pope even though it was their own jealousy which was the direct cause of this Schism in the first place.
However, now, in order to seemingly “justify” to themselves and to their flocks, the continuance of their own leadership, they have to deny the primacy and infallibility of the pope. Of course, God does not agree with them since He personally started the papacy (chief stewardship position/office), and He will judge them all according to His own thoughts and ways.
Now, some non-Catholic persons have decided that “revisionist” history is one of the best ways to justify appointing themselves as their own religious authority, so they claim that the Eastern Churches never accepted the primacy of the pope. This is false; the Eastern Churches all accepted the primacy of the pope until they wanted their own way.
Since Jesus personally gave Peter only and no one else the “keys of the kingdom of heaven,” no one can change his authority. It is God-given. This is an office of chief stewardship over all other stewards as I explained in a previous post. When an office becomes vacant, it must be filled. The “filling of a vacant office” in the hierarchy by a new person is called “apostolic succession.”
Paul claims to be a steward also, but he does not claim to be the chief steward.
1 Corinthians 4:1-4 “Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.”
Colossians 1:25 “of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,”
The reason that Peter’s name is listed first in the Bible when the names of the Apostles are listed is because it shows respect for his office as chief steward. This office is also similar to the “seat/chair of Moses” of the OT. Moses was the primary authority on earth of the OT, just as the pope is the primary authority on earth of the NT. The scribes and Pharisees succeeded Moses in the OT and they have God’s authority entrusted to them just as Moses did. Unfortunately, persons in authority can and do abuse their power and this causes great scandals. They still have God’s authority, however.
Matthew 23:2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;”
Proof of their legitimate authority from God is recognized by Jesus and taught by Him in the very next Scripture verse. He tells the people to obey the scribes and Pharisees (the hierarchy), but not to imitate their sinful personal actions:
Matthew 23:3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
More quotes from the Early Church Fathers about the Primacy of the Pope:
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SHW
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Continued:
The Church is hierarchical in nature just as the choirs of angels in heaven are also.
Paul claims that the apostles’ authority over the other Church members is from God:
2 Corinthians 10:8 “For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed—”
Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct."
Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”
Paul commands Titus, a new bishop to “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.” Titus 2:15
God appoints all authority.
Romans 13:1 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”
He appoints the Church hierarchy now (since the first Pentecost) in this manner:
2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”
This is an unbroken succession which goes back to the apostles themselves. According to God’s plan, no one is allowed to just pick up a Bible and then decide to be a preacher of it and call himself a bishop (or whatever) and claim authority from God to do so.
This is not how He personally set up His Church and persons proclaiming themselves bishops will never be acceptable to Him because the “laying on of hands” for the priesthood/bishopric must be done by persons who had it done to them previously by a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Jesus claims this for His own Church hierarchy:
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you (Church hierarchy) hears Me, he who rejects you (Church hierarchy) rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
It is prudent to take Jesus at His Word!
Which Church has the authority of Jesus on earth?
The one which has “the keeper of the keys of heaven” at its Head. The Catholic Church with its Pope as Chief Steward is Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic/universal, and Apostolic Church and “the gates of Hades will never prevail against this Church” because this is Jesus’ promise and He does not and cannot lie.
The Church is hierarchical in nature just as the choirs of angels in heaven are also.
Paul claims that the apostles’ authority over the other Church members is from God:
2 Corinthians 10:8 “For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed—”
Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct."
Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”
Paul commands Titus, a new bishop to “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.” Titus 2:15
God appoints all authority.
Romans 13:1 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”
He appoints the Church hierarchy now (since the first Pentecost) in this manner:
2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”
This is an unbroken succession which goes back to the apostles themselves. According to God’s plan, no one is allowed to just pick up a Bible and then decide to be a preacher of it and call himself a bishop (or whatever) and claim authority from God to do so.
This is not how He personally set up His Church and persons proclaiming themselves bishops will never be acceptable to Him because the “laying on of hands” for the priesthood/bishopric must be done by persons who had it done to them previously by a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Jesus claims this for His own Church hierarchy:
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you (Church hierarchy) hears Me, he who rejects you (Church hierarchy) rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
It is prudent to take Jesus at His Word!
Which Church has the authority of Jesus on earth?
The one which has “the keeper of the keys of heaven” at its Head. The Catholic Church with its Pope as Chief Steward is Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic/universal, and Apostolic Church and “the gates of Hades will never prevail against this Church” because this is Jesus’ promise and He does not and cannot lie.
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moondweller
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Your question is based on the false premise that simply because men have presented various interpretations of a Scriptural passage a true interpretation cannot be certain. But Paul wrote to Timothy:2 Tim 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."The burden, however, is upon you to provide proof that your teaching authority is truly “infallible.” IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility. You fully accept their interpretation because you accepted their assertion of infallibility.
Since I’ve been born again through faith in Christ alone, I have a non-denominational Protestant background. Both in formal education (theological) and church fellowship.
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humble_in_doubt
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I gotta a better way to use your free time. Try a good physics, critical thinking, logic, or biology course
It seems to me asking protestants to attend a Catholic catechism class is like me asking theists to read a good Nietzsche book
It seems to me asking protestants to attend a Catholic catechism class is like me asking theists to read a good Nietzsche book
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moondweller
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You’re such a child, Peter. I get the feeling you recently discovered the RC doctrine of “ex cathedra;” and like a child who when he first gets exposed to something new he thinks he’s the only one who’s ever known it. It’s delightful to watch, but only if they’re under the age of 12 or so. Beyond that you expect a little more wisdom from them.True, but I think we should give him a break – he did just admit that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach what he had previously claimed it did.
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humble_in_doubt
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hey moondweller … with regard to your signature. If someone only understands a little then by default they misunderstand a lot 
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moondweller
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Please quote the history book from which you acquired this view, and the name of the author. :tiphat:That would be before the Schism.
Schism:
Some Eastern Church leaders were fighting amongst themselves (a power struggle) because of jealousy. There were four patriarchs and eventually one ended up with most of the power. When the pope tried to intervene, he was rebuffed. Name-calling, etc. by patriarchs against the pope incited hatred against him.
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Peter_J
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Huh. More ad hominems. I wonder if anyone is surprised.
BTW, moondweller, what does the “c” in “bac” stand for?
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moondweller
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Not necessarily. One can understand the “little” that has been revealed to us concerning salvation and eternity, and in his correct understanding of it he is spared from misunderstanding A LOT.hey moondweller … with regard to your signature. If someone only understands a little then by default they misunderstand a lot
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humble_in_doubt
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oh OK … I guess I was referring to realityNot necessarily. One can understand the “little” that has been revealed to us concerning salvation and eternity, and in his correct understanding of it he is spared from misunderstanding A LOT.
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SHW
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The Catholic Church kept very good records once persecution ended and its hierarchy was not constantly in fear of death. Her dirty laundry is out there for all to see on the internet these days and some of it stinks to high heaven.
Yet, many persons who hate the Catholic Church still make up stories to slander her (the Church) for ulterior motives of their own.
[2 Peter 2:12, Jude 1:8-10]Condensed Catholic view of the Schism:
newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm
Condensed Former Orthodox, now Catholic in union with Rome view of the Schism:
byzcath.org/Faith-and-Worship/East-West-Dialogue-Page1.htm
However, what really matters is that this scandal still persists in the Church today.
This does not change the fact that Jesus established the “chief stewardship” position which we now call the pope/papacy (which means “papa” or “Father/Dad” on earth like “Abba” means our “Father/Dad” in heaven and this cannot be changed by any man or group of men on earth. This authority comes from God alone and the legitimate hierarchy only is authorized by God to appoint new members for apostolic succession just as Paul showed us in the Book of Titus as I posted in my previous email.
All those Orthodox Christians who are teaching that the Pope does not have God’s authority as chief steward are preaching “another gospel” and we know what Paul says about persons who do this: “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:9
Keep in mind that many people are ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own and so God will judge them according to His own justice and mercy.Truly ignorant persons are never condemned by God for this reason alone because God is Love.
This scandal will end before Jesus returns at His Second Coming because Jesus prayed:
John 17:18-23 “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. 20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.”
Since Jesus only prays His Father’s Will, then His prayer will be answered. [John 5:30] This schism will eventually be healed by/with God’s grace.
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moondweller
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You mean Darwin’s? Good luck on that. :tiphat: The reality is he died and is now facing the reality of it.oh OK … I guess I was referring to reality
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humble_in_doubt
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oh no … not the believe what you believe or I’ll burn in an eternal hell
Geesh … can’t you guys come up with new material? 
using ancient mythology as psychological extortion only works on a very small mind … and I have a really big head
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SHW
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Reality:oh OK … I guess I was referring to reality
Since you quote Einstein as your hero, perhaps you can relate to this quote also:
The test for me and others:
A. If I believe that there is a God, then I must find out what this God wants of me so that I can please this God, because I certainly do not want to face the consequences of not pleasing Him, when I die.
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B. If I do not believe that there is a God**, then I can do whatever I want, including writing “quote-worthy” letters denying God, because I fear no one since I believe death is the end for me.
So, faced with these two choices, I would personally choose A.
If I believed erroneously and there really is no God, then I die and that’s the end of me.
However, if I chose B (not to believe in God)., and then die and find out that I was wrong and so I now face the wrath, for eternity in hellfire, of this God, who had given me every chance to come to know Him, love Him, and serve Him on earth so that I could be happy with Him in heaven, then I was not the genius that I assumed I was. My foolishness has cost me the loss of eternal Paradise and has instead given me eternal hellfire with wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The real genius is not Einstein and others like him. Their lack of humility is their downfall. They have made themselves into gods who die!
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