Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus founded a Church, not an institution of man-made doctrines and dogmas. Huge difference.

He did. Why else did he gave the Apostles to Bind and Loose? and why did he say, if anyone does not listen to you, take it to the Church?

 

[cfrancis]

We tried having this discussion on another thread but it went south on the last question.
It has to back up before the African synods. I think I will try asking this and if it goes south again. I am sure I am to blame.

Was there authoratative scripture (OT) prior to Hippo and Carthage? If you believe that there was reconized scripture, even prior to Christ, by what authority?

Obviously I believe that the OT and NT teach that there was authoratative scripture. I need to know what you think. Understand I am referring to the OT not the NT to clarify. Thank you.

I guess my question would be, what was the OT canon in 2000BC? 1020 BC? 200 BC? 150 AD?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Jesus founded a Church, not an institution of man-made doctrines and dogmas. Huge difference.

Then you can see how the 30,000 denominations are man-made, but the Catholic church isn’t…unless you call Jesus the man.

 

[justasking4]

That’s just plain nonsense. The Church was set up with a hierarchy from the beginning.
Jesus told us that the Church is the final arbitor of truth (Matt. 18:15-18).

Jesus’ prayer for unity in John 17 assures us that he didn’t want faction - "denominations. St. Paul also warned against “denominations” (1 Cor. 1:11-15). Remember - denominations are man-made - God’s Church isn’t.

**There is *“ONE ***Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism;
ONE God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph. 4:5)

What is your definition of a denomination?

Secondly, did the apostles believe everything exactly alike?

 

[Rightlydivide]

I guess my question would be, what was the OT canon in 2000BC? 1020 BC? 200 BC? 150 AD?

The first question is:

"

Was there authoratative scripture (OT) prior to Hippo and Carthage? If you believe that there was reconized scripture, even prior to Christ, by what authority?"

The second question which either be a follow up on the authority component or it would your question. But first, the two questions come first. You would not answer the question of what that scripture was until you establish there was indeed scripture and by what authority. Both components.

First things first.

 

[elvisman]

What is your definition of a denomination?

Secondly, did the apostles believe everything exactly alike?

In the case of Christianity - a denomination is a group who share a name and a set of beliefs. In this case , it is a name that differs from the Catholic Church - so as to identify themselves with another set of beliefs than those of the Catholic Church. To give oneself a name (“nom”).

As far as we can tell, the Apostls were united in their beliefs. And, as we can see from the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, they gathered together and consulted with one another when there were questions. This is a direct result of Jesus’ promise of Authority and Truth.

 

[leg]

We tried having this discussion on another thread but it went south on the last question.
It has to back up before the African synods. I think I will try asking this and if it goes south again. I am sure I am to blame.

Was there authoratative scripture (OT) prior to Hippo and Carthage? If you believe that there was reconized scripture, even prior to Christ, by what authority?

Obviously I believe that the OT and NT teach that there was authoratative scripture. I need to know what you think. Understand I am referring to the OT not the NT to clarify. Thank you.

Did Christ order anything to be written? Was Christ aware of the Old Testament?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Did Christ order anything to be written? Was Christ aware of the Old Testament?

Of course!!

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

If by quoting extensively you mean aware, yes.

Now back to my question.

Were there authoratative scripture (OT) prior to Hippo and Carthage? If you believe that there was recognized scripture, even prior to Christ, by what authority?

 

[justasking4]

elvisman;4243168]That’s just plain nonsense. The Church was set up with a hierarchy from the beginning.
Jesus told us that the Church is the final arbitor of truth (Matt. 18:15-18).

This passage has nothing do with determining doctrines and such but its about church discipline.

Jesus’ prayer for unity in John 17 assures us that he didn’t want faction - "denominations. ****
What was the unity that Christ prayed for to be based on?

St. Paul also warned against “denominations” (1 Cor. 1:11-15

). Remember - denominations are man-made - God’s Church isn’t.

Can there be true unity if there is error? Of course no. That’s why the Reformation happen. The church was guilty of promoting error even by its own standards.

**There is *“ONE ***Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism;
ONE God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph. 4:5)

How can there be “one faith” when the Catholic church has added and subtracted from what the apostles taught?

 

[justasking4]

Did Christ order anything to be written? Was Christ aware of the Old Testament?

He did promise He would bring remembrance to His disciples of all that He Himself taught them. John 14:26.

Secondly, just as the Jews wrote down what the prophets said and considered it sacred Scripture the same would apply even more so with the teachings of the Lord Jesus.

 

[IamDust]

“How can there be “one faith” when the Catholic church has added and subtracted from what the apostles taught?”

Please enlighten us throughly of these “added and subtracted” beliefs. As far as my knowledge and understanding goes, the Church has never “added” or “invented” any doctrine, belief, or dogma that was not taught by Christ and his Apostles. If the Catholic Church starts making things up or starts “subtracting” beliefs, than I will be one confused soul.

Let’s take a brief look at one issue in which the Catholic Church has always held to - contraception. The CC has firmly rooted it’s position over 2000 years that contraeption is against the laws of God. Up until the 1930’s ALL Christians were united in the belief that contraception was wrong. THen, one protestant group decided that contraception was ok in certain circumstances, then the next group, and the next, and finally they ALL changed there doctrines and beliefs that contraception was ok to use whenever you please!

When it comes to being united under Christ, it was not the Catholic Church that continued to change doctrines and beliefs and make additions or subtractions to fit "the needs and beliefs’ of the people, it was any and every protestant church that I have known. If there is any Protestant church or any other christian church that has never changed doctrine or beliefs, I apologize for the blanket statement!

 

[justasking4]

IamDust;4250090]
justasking4

“How can there be “one faith” when the Catholic church has added and subtracted from what the apostles taught?”

IamDust
Please enlighten us throughly of these “added and subtracted” beliefs. As far as my knowledge and understanding goes, the Church has never “added” or “invented” any doctrine, belief, or dogma that was not taught by Christ and his Apostles. If the Catholic Church starts making things up or starts “subtracting” beliefs, than I will be one confused soul.

Take a look at the Marian doctrines for starters. You don’t see them taught in the NT.

Let’s take a brief look at one issue in which the Catholic Church has always held to - contraception. The CC has firmly rooted it’s position over 2000 years that contraeption is against the laws of God. Up until the 1930’s ALL Christians were united in the belief that contraception was wrong. THen, one protestant group decided that contraception was ok in certain circumstances, then the next group, and the next, and finally they ALL changed there doctrines and beliefs that contraception was ok to use whenever you please!

Where do we find anything about contraception in the Scriptures?

When it comes to being united under Christ, it was not the Catholic Church that continued to change doctrines and beliefs and make additions or subtractions to fit "the needs and beliefs’ of the people, it was any and every protestant church that I have known. If there is any Protestant church or any other christian church that has never changed doctrine or beliefs, I apologize for the blanket statement!

Portestant churches that i’m aware of do agree on core doctrines such as the deity of Christ and frogiveness through Him.
The Catholic church on the other hand has made celibacy a requirement for church leadership (denies I Timothy 3:1-13). There are other things that we could discuss but i think this enough for now.

 

[leg]

Take a look at the Marian doctrines for starters. You don’t see them taught in the NT.

Where do we find anything about contraception in the Scriptures?
.

we are not limited to sola scriptura and even in the Bible it says that it isn’t the only source, but you just seem to ignore that. Do you really think that Jesus came to give us a rule book? NO… He came to establish a Church… if he had just come to give us a book, why bother showing up? He could have sent Gabriel to deliver it like the Koran…but he didn’t, he came here and chose 12 followers and taught them then he sent them forth to all the ends of the earth, all without a book…in fact if it weren’t for the Catholics, there would be no Bible since we compiled it.

 

[leg]

We tried having this discussion on another thread but it went south on the last question.
It has to back up before the African synods. I think I will try asking this and if it goes south again. I am sure I am to blame.

Was there authoratative scripture (OT) prior to Hippo and Carthage? If you believe that there was reconized scripture, even prior to Christ, by what authority?

Obviously I believe that the OT and NT teach that there was authoratative scripture. I need to know what you think. Understand I am referring to the OT not the NT to clarify. Thank you.

Christ sent the Apostles to teach all things that He had taught them. In the last verse of his Gospel St. John tells us that not all is written in Scripture. If all is to be taught, and all is not set down in Scripture, part of Christian doctrine must be elsewhere. Where? St. Paul tells us clearly. “Brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our Epistle.” II. Thess. II, 14. “Hold the form of sound words whicn you have heard of me in faith.” II. Tim. I, 13. “The things thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.” II. Tim. II, 2. All Christians from the very beginning believed that Christian revelation was contained not only in Scripture, but also in tradition. Acts II, 42, tells us that “they were persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles,” that is, in the oral teaching of the Apostles which they taught to one another, and handed on to their children. Those who repudiate tradition have lost the complete doctrine of Christ

 

[Rightlydivide]

Christ sent the Apostles to teach all things that He had taught them. In the last verse of his Gospel St. John tells us that not all is written in Scripture. If all is to be taught, and all is not set down in Scripture, part of Christian doctrine must be elsewhere. Where? St. Paul tells us clearly. “Brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our Epistle.” II. Thess. II, 14. “Hold the form of sound words whicn you have heard of me in faith.” II. Tim. I, 13. “The things thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.” II. Tim. II, 2. All Christians from the very beginning believed that Christian revelation was contained not only in Scripture, but also in tradition. Acts II, 42, tells us that “they were persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles,” that is, in the oral teaching of the Apostles which they taught to one another, and handed on to their children. Those who repudiate tradition have lost the complete doctrine of Christ

while I enjoy your talking points, and it IS a good answer, it does not have a thing to do with what I asked.
I will wait around for someone to actually answer.

 

[SIA]

we are not limited to sola scriptura and even in the Bible it says that it isn’t the only source, but you just seem to ignore that. Do you really think that Jesus came to give us a rule book? NO… He came to establish a Church… if he had just come to give us a book, why bother showing up? He could have sent Gabriel to deliver it like the Koran…but he didn’t, he came here and chose 12 followers and taught them then he sent them forth to all the ends of the earth, all without a book…in fact if it weren’t for the Catholics, there would be no Bible since we compiled it.

You keep referring to Scripture alone and you know good and well that this is not the argument here. The Scriptures are where we find what Jesus taught and what God’s Holy Word is. Don’t go kicking the Bible around. Where else do you get this kind of authority given by God?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

If he did, then when why do some of your fore fathers ignore Church authority?

If he did not gave us an Church with authority, whom did Jesus handed his authority too? Did Church authority fell away when the last Apostle die?

How would it justifying adding 27 NT text in the Bible? Since the Holy Bible did not added the 27 NT text into the canon but rather local Synods of the Church.

good luck on this one.

to protestants there is no church there is only the Bible as the authority. which means anyone can pick up the Bible and begin to preach to everyone. because the Bible is what gives them authority.

good luck in get them to understand what the Church is.

 

[elvisman]

This passage has nothing do with determining doctrines and such but its about church discipline.

It has everything to do with authority AND discipline.
Who makes the final call? The CHURCH.

What was the unity that Christ prayed for to be based on?

It was based on LOVE - HIS love for US.
It is painfully clear that he wanted unity in his Church but that he KNEW that it would break off into erroneous, warring factions as it did during the Reformation because of free will.

Can there be true unity if there is error? Of course no. That’s why the Reformation happen. The church was guilty of promoting error even by its own standards.

The Reformation was a tragedy of epic proportions because prideful men chose to break away from Christ’s Church instead of fixing the problems from within.
The weak argument I always hear is that they were excommunicated and therefore started their own churches.

Please show me where in Scripture we are taught to leave the Church and start our own when we feel it is in error.
The prophets of the Old Testament never did this. They REMAINED in the Jewish faith and gave their lives for the truth. The Reformers were prideful cowards to this end.

How can there be “one faith” when the Catholic church has added and subtracted from what the apostles taught?

Oh - on the contrary, my confused friend!
The Catholic church has maintained and preserved what the Apostles taught. Any dogmas “added” later were only beliefs that the Church always held but felt it necessary to proclaim - usually in response to a particular heresy.

As for “subtracting” what the Apostles taught - show me ONE example.

 

[Tomster]

Take a look at the Marian doctrines for starters. You don’t see them taught in the NT.

Where do we find anything about contraception in the Scriptures?

Portestant churches that i’m aware of do agree on core doctrines such as the deity of Christ and frogiveness through Him.
The Catholic church on the other hand has made celibacy a requirement for church leadership (denies I Timothy 3:1-13). There are other things that we could discuss but i think this enough for now.

Take a good, close, hard look at what Protestantism has done with their own variations of Incarnational theology. No wonder there are so many denominations under the umbrella of Protestantism. But, since there is no authoritative body within Protestantism to straighten out the theological chaos, Protestantism will continue to mutate.

 

[RNRobert]

He did. Why else did he gave the Apostles to Bind and Loose? and why did he say, if anyone does not listen to you, take it to the Church?

A couple years ago I was debating a non-Catholic on these forums and I asked him (on a couple different threads) “whatever happened to apostolic authority?” and go no answer. I even started a separate thread on the topic and did not get a satisfactory answer.
We see from the book of Acts and the various epistles that the Apostles had authority not just to preach and teach, but to settle matters regarding church doctrine and discipline. Where can that authority be found 2,000 years later?