Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please let me help you understand historic Protestantism. Justification is a monogestic act. After conversion, sanctification is a synergistic act between God and man. We are called to obey through the power of the Spirit which we also choose to obey.

I asked you a simple question to help you understand the logical flaws in Protestantism, historic or contemporary.

Since you agree that obedience to the Spirit is something we choose, then you apparently understand that our cooperation with God’s grace is necessary for salvation.

Now you know why some people do go to heaven and others don’t.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Did I offend you in some personal manner; if so I apologize

I’m difficult to offend, and no, you have posted nothing remotely offensive.

However, your dogma is wrong and I have demonstrated the errors in your beliefs with just a few scriptures that you cannot address.

Do you agree with Paul that in terms of eternal life we will reap what we sow?

If so, then you must abandon Calvinism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I know that. However, Calvinist soteriology gives predestination a far more central role than it had ever had before. That is the truth behind the unfair distortion to which you refer. I don’t think I am guilty of that distortion. I know that there is a whole lot more to Reformed theology than predestination. But we are debating “monergism” and the classical Protestant doctrine of salvation. Predestination *is *central to the Reformed version of that doctrine.

Every version of historic Christian theology is about the glory of God. What makes Calvinism different is how they understand God’s glory and how they seek to promote and extol it. And that does lead Calvinists to put more of an emphasis on predestination than other Christians, even those (such as Augustinian/Thomist Catholics or Lutherans who follow Luther’s own views on this matter) who firmly believe in unconditional predestination.

I know he would. He did. Or rather, he didn’t really argue it. He just asserted it. He was very good at that. A great preacher, but that doesn’t make his arguments correct.

To claim that even Augustine was a Calvinist is hopelessly anachronistic. Augustine’s doctrine of baptism alone makes a sharp division between him and any version of Calvinism, even the most sacramental (because none of you can grant that baptism conveys regenerating grace, or you’d have to admit that not all the regenerate are elect and persevere).

Edwin

I know many Calvnists who believe John the Baptist was regenerate in his mother’s womb. So, we go beyond baptismal regeneration. I am not a die hard Calvinist. For me, all systematic theologies fall short. Most Calvinists would agree. However, I would say in comparision to other systematic theologies, Calvinism is the most biblical. Of course, that’s my opinion.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

I bet you are a Calvinist at heart. Let’s see
Do you pray for others that are lost? Why; God won’t influence their free-will.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I asked you a simple question to help you understand the logical flaws in Protestantism, historic or contemporary.

Since you agree that obedience to the Spirit is something we choose, then you apparently understand that our cooperation with God’s grace is necessary for salvation.

Now you know why some people do go to heaven and others don’t.

Your skipping over our theological distinctives in regards to justification and sanctification. For those who have been justified, we are enabled to obey through the power of the Spirit by choice. However, those who do not have the Spirit and only profess Christ cannot choose to obey God in a way that pleases Him. For those who are in the flesh (uncoverted) cannot please God. In Christianity, we have those who profess Christ and are not in Christ, and we have those who are in Christ. Jesus teaches that there are sheep and goats in the visible church. When the sheep do not obey, God disciplines them. When the goats disobey, God does not discipline them because they are not His adopted children.

Hebrews 12

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Your skipping over our theological distinctives in regards to justification and sanctification. .

I’m not skipping over anything, I’m ignoring meaningless semantic gymnastics meant to justify your dogma.

God’s grace enables us to follow him, but we can choose to reject it.

 

[RickHolland]

I’m difficult to offend, and no, you have posted nothing remotely offensive.

However, your dogma is wrong and I have demonstrated the errors in your beliefs with just a few scriptures that you cannot address.

Do you agree with Paul that in terms of eternal life we will reap what we sow?

If so, then you must abandon Calvinism.

I might agree if I misinterpret the passage as you seem to. Maybe 2ndAdam will fill you in?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’m not skipping over anything, I’m ignoring meaningless semantic gymnastics meant to justify your dogma.

God’s grace enables us to follow him, but we can choose to reject it.

Does Catholic theology make a distinction of the various kinds of grace?

 

[RickHolland]

1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

I deny that Calvinistic notion that God chooses some and rejects others.
God chooses all men, but some men reject his grace.

The you have just admitted you reject what God has said.

Mt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mt 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER ***His elect ***from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mr 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mr 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and ***will gather together His elect ***from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Lu 18:7 now, ***will not God bring about justice for His elect ***who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Mt 22:14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.”

Lu 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for ***your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. ***

Joh 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but {it is} that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

Ac 1:2 until the day when He was taken up {to heaven,} after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles*** whom He had chosen***.

Ac 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Ac 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, {that is,} to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Ro 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

1Co 1:27
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

1Co 1:28
and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,

Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because*** God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation ***through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1Ti 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of {His} chosen angels, to maintain these {principles} without bias, doing nothing in a {spirit of} partiality.

2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus {and} with {it} eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the ***faith of those chosen of God ***and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God’s} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him ***who has called you out of darkness ***into His marvelous light;

1Pe 5:13 She who is in Babylon, ***chosen together ***with you, sends you greetings, and {so does} my son, Mark.

2Jo 1:1
The elder to the ***chosen lady ***and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

2Jo 1:13 The children of ***your chosen ***sister greet you.

Re 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him {are the} called and chosen and faithful.”

There are quite a few more along the same lines. How long will you continue to deny the word of God?

 

[2nd_Adam]

2 Timothy 2:10

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Jesus prays for the Elect and not the world.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. - John17

 

[Contarini]

I know many Calvnists who believe John the Baptist was regenerate in his mother’s womb. So, we go beyond baptismal regeneration.

No, that’s not “beyond” baptismal regeneration. It’s in the other direction entirely.

My point is that baptismal regeneration makes it impossible for predestination to play the role in Catholic soteriology that it does in Calvinist soteriology. I keep harping on the perseverance issue because it’s the most obvious place where Augustine is not a Calvinist, but admittedly also because growing up Wesleyan in East Tennessee makes one very aware of “eternal security” as a church-dividing issue!

Edwin

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, that’s not “beyond” baptismal regeneration. It’s in the other direction entirely.

My point is that baptismal regeneration makes it impossible for predestination to play the role in Catholic soteriology that it does in Calvinist soteriology. I keep harping on the perseverance issue because it’s the most obvious place where Augustine is not a Calvinist, but admittedly also because growing up Wesleyan in East Tennessee makes one very aware of “eternal security” as a church-dividing issue!

Edwin

Please tell me about the life of John Wesley. Didn’t he freak out on a ship back to England due to lack of assurance or something. And on that journey, there were Calviinists on the ship who were at peace? Maybe John Wesley had much Catholic doctrine in his theology in comparison to the Puritians. How much of the debates between Wesley and Whitefield have you studied on these issues?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The you have just admitted you reject what God has said.

Mt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mt 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER ***His elect ***from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mr 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mr 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and ***will gather together His elect ***from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Lu 18:7 now, ***will not God bring about justice for His elect ***who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Mt 22:14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.”

Lu 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for ***your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. ***

Joh 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but {it is} that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

Ac 1:2 until the day when He was taken up {to heaven,} after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles*** whom He had chosen***.

Ac 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Ac 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, {that is,} to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Ro 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

1Co 1:27
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

1Co 1:28
and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,

Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because*** God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation ***through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1Ti 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of {His} chosen angels, to maintain these {principles} without bias, doing nothing in a {spirit of} partiality.

2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus {and} with {it} eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the ***faith of those chosen of God ***and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God’s} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him ***who has called you out of darkness ***into His marvelous light;

1Pe 5:13 She who is in Babylon, ***chosen together ***with you, sends you greetings, and {so does} my son, Mark.

2Jo 1:1
The elder to the ***chosen lady ***and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

2Jo 1:13 The children of ***your chosen ***sister greet you.

Re 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him {are the} called and chosen and faithful.”

There are quite a few more along the same lines. How long will you continue to deny the word of God?

God wants all men to be saved.

Obviously, at the end of our lives some go to heaven and some go to hell. But you know as well as I do that this is not relevant to our disagreement.

Matt 25

"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, **whatever you did not do **for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

2

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. - John17

Jesus is praying for his apostles. I suspect an intentional attempt to distort the clear meaning of the scriptures.

FYI: (in case you are just sincerely mistaken)

17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

These apostles are the Church. We are those who believe through THEIR message.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Does Catholic theology make a distinction of the various kinds of grace?

Yes.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

 

[debgab]

2ndAdam was proably much like I was; I couldn’t or had a hard time accepting the election and predestination and the paradox of free-will; but once embraced it gives a whole new level of appreciation and love for God that you didn’t even know existed. No wonder people are so eager for everyone to enjoy!
Reply With Quote

I’m having a hard time with it also, being raised catholic. Why would God allow free will, if we couldn’t choose or not choose him freely? Are you sure that just because you feel God’s call on your heart that you are automatically saved? Yes you have put on the pure garment and have been washed cleaned of your sins, because of Jesus’s sacrifice, but you are still in this world and in the same body which is dying every day, you aren’t living as a pure spirit as yet. Would the protestant mind-set automatically judge those who have not gotten God’s call, although have tried, that they will not be in eternity and so therefore not part of the elect? I would think if one believed that they were part of the elect, then they would feel secure in that knowledge, and very happy, but at the same time, very very sad that so many of those that they know and love won’t be going to the same place after death that they are. What then of those people? If God is Father, wouldn’t it make sense to ask the Father to also save your brother’s and sister’s? Doesn’t the Father want to give his children what they ask of Him? Catholic’s believe in prayer’s of petition for the soul’s of those that have died and also sacrifice to attain the hope of that soul going to heaven. I know Protestant’s don’t believe in purgatory, but it’s in the old testament somewhere that the Jew’s prayed for the dead. I know I’ve got a lot of rhetorical questions, but wanted you all to know I’m asking sincerely and without malice. This is a deep topic to me, and have just realized after reading this thread, how much this has been on my mind without exactly knowing what to call it.

 

[Contarini]

Please tell me about the life of John Wesley. Didn’t he freak out on a ship back to England due to lack of assurance or something. And on that journey, there were Calviinists on the ship who were at peace?

They weren’t Calvinists. They were Moravians. However, following his evangelical conversion experience (in the wake of the ship voyage to which you refer) Wesley did make common cause with evangelical Calvinists. In later years he took a more strongly “Arminian” position and came to believe that in the enthusiasm of his early evangelicalism he had “leaned too much toward Calvinism.”

Maybe John Wesley had much Catholic doctrine in his theology in comparison to the Puritians.

Wesley was certainly a weird and wonderful mixture of Puritanism and high-church Anglicanism.

How much of the debates between Wesley and Whitefield have you studied on these issues?

I’ve read some of Wesley’s letters to Whitefield in my youth, and I started on Fletcher’s *Checks to Antinomianism,*which conservative Wesleyans see as the classic defense of Wesleyanism against Calvinism (though admittedly–and Fletcher admitted this himself–Fletcher was attacking an extreme version of Calvinism which most Calvinists did not support; but he did so in defense of Wesley’s move away from Calvinism and toward what looked to many evangelical Calvinists perilously like Catholicism). Then I became very interested in Calvinist theology and read Edwards, dipped into the Puritans, and eventually decided to study the Reformation in grad school. I found Calvinist theology a lot deeper and more convincing than Wesleyan/Arminian theology, but I also had the obvious problems with some Calvinist claims. As I got deeper into the Church Fathers, and in particular as I studied how the theology of the Reformers compared to that of Augustine and the pre-Reformation tradition generally, I eventually came to see Calvinism as a relatively shallow, simplistic, almost caricatured version of the Augustinian tradition. So my current rather hostile stance is the result of a long journey, which began when I realized that Calvinism made more sense and had more to it than the versions of Arminian theology I’d been taught. Now I have a very high regard fo the Greek Fathers and on that basis would defend Wesley more vigorously. From my perspective he did his best with the theological resources he had in a very rationalistic age. In such an age about the deepest theologian the West could produce was Edwards. Which is nothing to sneeze at–but Edwards was still deeply shaped by the Enlightenment in ways that I think harmed his theology and in the long run made Calvinism something much less even than the religion of the Reformers (I am indebted to the 19th-century Anglican theologian F. D. Maurice for crystallizing this insight).

All of this sounds very breezy and dismissive because I’m trying to show you where I’m coming from without being too long-winded!

Edwin

 

[2nd_Adam]

2ndAdam was proably much like I was; I couldn’t or had a hard time accepting the election and predestination and the paradox of free-will; but once embraced it gives a whole new level of appreciation and love for God that you didn’t even know existed. No wonder people are so eager for everyone to enjoy!

I think you were addressing your post to Rick. However, I wanted to respond to it too. The Elect of God is only known by God, because God is the One who chooses the Elect as the bride of Christ. An Elect can come into faith later in life, even though an Elect rejected the gospel earlier in life. All Christians have friends and relatives who do not believe. It does not mean that they will not believe later in life, by the grace of God. An Elect tends to be the foolish things in the world, since God does this to humble rebellious mankind. Consider 1 Cor 1:

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

We are really not children of God until we have been born from above, and united to Christ through faith in the gospel of God. Through faith in Christ, we become adopted children, calling Abba Father. Before we believe in Christ, all humanity are really children of the devil, children of disobedience, children of wrath, and children of the darkness. We are actually moved from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light when we believe in the gospel… through the work of the Spirit.

Adam and Eve were born with free will, and without a sin nature. We were not born with the same free nature as Adam and Eve. We inherited the fallen sinful nature caused by the disobdience of Adam and Eve. Therefore, our will is in bondage to our sin nature, unable to please God. We have no desire for Christ and the light. In our fallen nature, we run from the light of Christ since our hearts are darkened. The Bible describes us as being in enmity with God for our sins against Him. Christ came to rescue us from our sins, and to reconcile us to God the Father… enabling us to be adopted into the family of God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

They weren’t Calvinists. They were Moravians. However, following his evangelical conversion experience (in the wake of the ship voyage to which you refer) Wesley did make common cause with evangelical Calvinists. In later years he took a more strongly “Arminian” position and came to believe that in the enthusiasm of his early evangelicalism he had “leaned too much toward Calvinism.”

Wesley was certainly a weird and wonderful mixture of Puritanism and high-church Anglicanism.

I’ve read some of Wesley’s letters to Whitefield in my youth, and I started on Fletcher’s *Checks to Antinomianism,*which conservative Wesleyans see as the classic defense of Wesleyanism against Calvinism (though admittedly–and Fletcher admitted this himself–Fletcher was attacking an extreme version of Calvinism which most Calvinists did not support; but he did so in defense of Wesley’s move away from Calvinism and toward what looked to many evangelical Calvinists perilously like Catholicism). Then I became very interested in Calvinist theology and read Edwards, dipped into the Puritans, and eventually decided to study the Reformation in grad school. I found Calvinist theology a lot deeper and more convincing than Wesleyan/Arminian theology, but I also had the obvious problems with some Calvinist claims. As I got deeper into the Church Fathers, and in particular as I studied how the theology of the Reformers compared to that of Augustine and the pre-Reformation tradition generally, I eventually came to see Calvinism as a relatively shallow, simplistic, almost caricatured version of the Augustinian tradition. So my current rather hostile stance is the result of a long journey, which began when I realized that Calvinism made more sense and had more to it than the versions of Arminian theology I’d been taught. Now I have a very high regard fo the Greek Fathers and on that basis would defend Wesley more vigorously. From my perspective he did his best with the theological resources he had in a very rationalistic age. In such an age about the deepest theologian the West could produce was Edwards. Which is nothing to sneeze at–but Edwards was still deeply shaped by the Enlightenment in ways that I think harmed his theology and in the long run made Calvinism something much less even than the religion of the Reformers (I am indebted to the 19th-century Anglican theologian F. D. Maurice for crystallizing this insight).

All of this sounds very breezy and dismissive because I’m trying to show you where I’m coming from without being too long-winded!

Edwin

I always find your posting edifying and informative. You are a church historian, right? What do you think about Calvin’s Institutes? So, what prevents you from being Catholic in a nutshell? What do you think about the 2nd Great Awakening in which Charles Finney, Joseph Smith, and Cambell came from? I believe all of these men rejected justification by faith alone and imputation, correct?

 

[RickHolland]

No, that’s not “beyond” baptismal regeneration. It’s in the other direction entirely.

My point is that baptismal regeneration makes it impossible for predestination to play the role in Catholic soteriology that it does in Calvinist soteriology. I keep harping on the perseverance issue because it’s the most obvious place where Augustine is not a Calvinist, but admittedly also because growing up Wesleyan in East Tennessee makes one very aware of “eternal security” as a church-dividing issue!

Edwin

Johnson City, Kingsport or Bristol?