Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[NonCatholic]

Realcatholicgk:
Flat out wrong…John chapter six is the salvation message; not the Lords supper. Do a word study on the word remembrance and then look at the account of Luke, then I Corinthians - the areas speaking of the Lords Supper-pay close attention to what the Lord actually says and not what you imagine he says. In John 6 Christ explains before and after what the feeding of His flesh and blood mean. On top of that you have your Mass administered by a person who Christ did away with…Hebrews 7,8,9…there is no more priesthood; so one that exists in any religion is false. You can’t read Hebrews and walk away with anything else, unless you are very very blind to the Word of God. The whole idea of the Lords Supper is to remember the price He paid for sinners, reflect on Him and ourselves in relation to our standing before Him and others.

 

[NonCatholic]

Excerpt from John 6…

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

They don’t believe Jesus was speaking symbolically! They are disturbed by Jesus’ statement.

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him…

**How does one eat something symbolically? If I handed you a hamburger and told you to eat it symbolically, what would you do? If Jesus was referring, exclusivly to His Sacrifice at Calvary when He said: **

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Why didn’t He clarify, when His followers were walking away? Jesus even used the word gnaw in lieu of eat to drive His point home; that was the very reason why some walked away. Was their eternal salvation unimportant to Jesus?

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

**Why is “this saying” hard to accept?
**
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you…

**Why did it shock them? **

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

Jesus knew the people that would not believe him, in His day --that would betray Him --just as He does today; This really bothered me as a former Lutheran; I felt as though I was walking away from Jesus --betraying Him, just as some of His first followers did. It really ate away at me, metaphorically speaking. See how clear, talking in metaphor, could have been, if that was Jesus intention?

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

**Why did they walk away, even after witnessing miracles??? **

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

**If Peter, the Apostles and disciples, who didn’t walk away --BELIEVED, although not clearly yet; that would occur at Pentecost, when ALL would be made clear, thanks to the Holy Spirit -----why don’t you (all non believers in the true presence) --believe as well? Pretty cut and dried if you ask me!
**
**The word for eat is esthiÅ, but Jesus uses the word
phagein - to chew or gnaw —WHY, if He is reputedly speaking in metaphor. Why would Jesus use such graphic word? Makes no sense to me!
Sarx, a translation of this, can mean physical flesh, but is also used in the context, in the Bible, as mere human nature. However, “Flesh” --used in the figurative sense, refers to the **sin-prone aspect of human nature. ****Christ’s sarx? Really??? Yikes! Jesus Christ is not telling His family to figuratively nourish themselves on His sin-prone human nature --is He? He is telling them to nourish themselves on his life-giving flesh.

I couldn’t deny this simple extrapolation, as a former Lutheran; how can you justify your denial? Seriously, no sarcasm intended; I really want to understand?

I am all ears --what do you know, another obvious metaphor; nothing metaphorical about the words:

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

True food and true drink —need I say more…

Why does anyone walk away from Jesus? The same reason these people walked away…they didn’t believe, that why they came to the same silly conclusion that He was talking about literally eating Him.

John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But among you there are some who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him. 65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.”

Wake up and open you eyes and ears…Jesus is clear clear clear clear.

 

[NonCatholic]

For 1500 years Christians believed in the Real Presence. The Apostles did, those who were close to him, those who stepped into their shoes did. Despite Luther’s heresay he believed in the Real Presence. From Luther, Calvin, Zwingli’s break emanated the denominations, split after split after split. Down the road from us is the “Family Church” and you have the Saddleback Church (I wondered about tht name and then reached the conclusion that it could only be the name of a district or a town… These Churches are believers in the"symolic" presence.

When you enter a Catholic Mass you bless yourself with Holy Water to remember your Baptism. You enter the Church and genuflect - that little red light near the tabernacle signifies that the Blessed Sacrament (Jesus) is there. You proceed to make the sign of the cross and greet Jesus. There is silence out of reverence as the people file into the Church for Mass. Then the Mass begins. After the Entrance Antifon the Priest opens his arms and greets the congregation* “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”* We respond “And also with you” and there are prayers followed by the Penitential Rite when we examine our consciences after the Priest says “My brothers and sisters to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries let us call to mind our sins”. After a pause and silence we say the “I confess…” the Kyrie follows - Lord have Mercy, Christ have Mercy… “May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life”. Amen

Then we have the Gloria - often in song “Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on earth” and I am sure the Angels and Saints in Heaven join us as we sing this beautiful prayer…

The Liturgy of the Word follows…On Sundays we have Two readings (OT and Epistle) with the chanting of the Psalm in between - the singing of the Psalm is to beautiful and moving also… After the 2nd reading we have the Alleluia which is also sung. The Gospel follows and then the Homily. The Homily is a commentary/teaching on the passages read and their connectedness (the Priest never chooses the theme - it is in the Lectionary and our Missals and the same the world over). After the Homily there is the Creed “I believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen…”

The Prayer of the Faithful follows and the Reader will call out all the intentions and we respond “Receive our prayer”…

Now follows the Liturgy of the Eucharist.“Pray brethen, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the Almighty Father” says the priest and we respond Amen. We offer ourselves to God in the Offertary. There is the Preface and we all stand up and we pray “Holy, Holy, Holy God of Power and Might…”

Then there is the Eucharistic Prayer and the Consecration and then the Priest says: Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith and we have several responses, one being:

“*Lord, by your cross and resurrection you have set us free. You are the Saviour of the world” *

We say the Our Father and then the Priest says the prayer of Peace and opening is arms he says “Peace be with you” We respond and then we offer peace to each other.

The Rite of Communion follows and we receive the *Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins on the Cross (once and for all). *

We return to our bench, kneel and offer thanks.

The Priest says the final prayer and gives us a Blessing and says “Go in Peace to Love and Serve the Lord!”.

Amen.

This is our beautiful Mass which gives us light, love and grace.

May God Bless you all

Cinette

There is no indication the Apostles or any other Christian ate Christ because it does not exist because it was never meant be a cannibalization of Christ. Read the passages in Luke and 1 Corinthians and mediate on them…you will not see any eating of flesh or drinking of blood.

 

[Cinette]

There is no indication the Apostles or any other Christian ate Christ because it does not exist because it was never meant be a cannibalization of Christ. Read the passages in Luke and 1 Corinthians and mediate on them…you will not see any eating of flesh or drinking of blood.

***“If this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them”

---

Acts 5:38-39

The Catholic Church has stood the test of time. It goes back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles. The Bible you read was written and compiled by Catholics. Jesus kept his promise and no matter what you say, you cannot disprove this.

It is sad indeed to read your postings with their blatent denial of the truth. You have no idea now much it hurts to see the evidence of your denial and your twisted interpretation.

I can only hope and pray that you will open your heart and mind to the truth and that one day you will allow the Holy Spirit to come in and give you the gift of Faith, Wisdom, Understanding, Discernment…

Perhaps this thread should end right here and now and that you all go away and pray, meditate and reflect on what has been written here. There is compelling evidence of truth and only the Holy Spirit can open you up to the truth if you yield to Him.

May God bless you
Cinette

 

[MDK]

Flat out wrong…John chapter six is the salvation message; not the Lords supper. Do a word study on the word remembrance and then look at the account of Luke, then I Corinthians - the areas speaking of the Lords Supper-pay close attention to what the Lord actually says and not what you imagine he says. In John 6 Christ explains before and after what the feeding of His flesh and blood mean. On top of that you have your Mass administered by a person who Christ did away with…Hebrews 7,8,9…there is no more priesthood; so one that exists in any religion is false. You can’t read Hebrews and walk away with anything else, unless you are very very blind to the Word of God. The whole idea of the Lords Supper is to remember the price He paid for sinners, reflect on Him and ourselves in relation to our standing before Him and others.

For starters, St. Paul told the Hebrews that there is no more OT priesthood. It was done away with, so the New Covenant Priesthood could enter.

The priesthood of Aaron ended with the coming of Christ, as Christ’s priesthood fulfills and supersedes the Aaronic priesthood. Also, the entire people of God plays a priestly role in interceding for the world before God. A ministerial priesthood exists in the New Covenant structure of the Church, which is based on and flows from Christ’s own priesthood. The ministerial priesthood is shown in Scriptures established by Christ when He gives His Apostles authority to forgive sins in His Name, and at the last supper to do this in memory of Him.

 

[MDK]

Why does anyone walk away from Jesus? The same reason these people walked away…they didn’t believe, that why they came to the same silly conclusion that He was talking about literally eating Him.

John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But among you there are some who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him. 65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.”

Wake up and open you eyes and ears…Jesus is clear clear clear clear.

Do you say that Christ’s flesh is useless?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Flat out wrong…John chapter six is the salvation message; not the Lords supper. Do a word study on the word remembrance and then look at the account of Luke, then I Corinthians - the areas speaking of the Lords Supper-pay close attention to what the Lord actually says and not what you imagine he says. In John 6 Christ explains before and after what the feeding of His flesh and blood mean. On top of that you have your Mass administered by a person who Christ did away with…Hebrews 7,8,9…there is no more priesthood; so one that exists in any religion is false. You can’t read Hebrews and walk away with anything else, unless you are very very blind to the Word of God. The whole idea of the Lords Supper is to remember the price He paid for sinners, reflect on Him and ourselves in relation to our standing before Him and others.

FLAT OUT WRONG,AND I WILL PRAY FOR YOU, YOU CANNOT READ JOHN 6 AND WALK AWAY WITH ANYTHING ELSE UNLESS YOU ARE BLIND TO THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, MAY HE HAVE NERSY ON YOUR SOUL

 

[Bill_Pick]

flat Out Wrong,and I Will Pray For You, You Cannot Read John 6 And Walk Away With Anything Else Unless You Are Blind To The Words Of Our Lord Jesus Christ, May He Have Mercy On Your Soul

 

[Robertwilliam]

Here is the point that you said was “good:”…
This is a classic falsehood. Jesus wants us to do what He did and to have His experience that He had while here on earth. But how far do we carry this? I don’t see Catholics being “literal” when it comes to hanging oneself on the cross. Jesus is called a “Lion” in Rev.5:5, so why don’t you eat lion meat at Mass?

We are to be in the image of Christ, " I am crucified with Christ…"
" Buried with Him in Baptism…"
" I fill up that which is LACKING in the sufferings of Christ…"
" If we died with him, we shall also rise together with Him…"

 

[NonCatholic]

***“If this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them”

---

Acts 5:38-39

The Catholic Church has stood the test of time. It goes back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles. The Bible you read was written and compiled by Catholics. Jesus kept his promise and no matter what you say, you cannot disprove this.

It is sad indeed to read your postings with their blatent denial of the truth. You have no idea now much it hurts to see the evidence of your denial and your twisted interpretation.

I can only hope and pray that you will open your heart and mind to the truth and that one day you will allow the Holy Spirit to come in and give you the gift of Faith, Wisdom, Understanding, Discernment…

Perhaps this thread should end right here and now and that you all go away and pray, meditate and reflect on what has been written here. There is compelling evidence of truth and only the Holy Spirit can open you up to the truth if you yield to Him.

May God bless you
Cinette

Nice rebuttal? I have faith in God; not a religious organization. You and others arrogance concerning where the Bible came from would be laughable if not for the fact that you actually believe that.

I guess the Catholic Bible and the Bible(s) I have exactly the same books…no. Also, I guess Moses was a Catholic…no! I guess God is not the author of Scripture. Do you see the ignorance and arrogance in such statements? Unfortunately, you prove you don’t know the truth of God because you follow faith and tradition outside of God’s word.

Read Hebrews starting near the end of chapter 7, then all of 8 and 9; then meditate and see if it says anything about the ending of the priesthood.

Read Luke 22 and I Corinthians on the sections concerning the Lords Supper; look carefully at what Christ actually says in relation to eating of flesh and drinking of blood. o help you actually discern the truth, you may want to do a word search on exactly how the word “remembrance” is used throughout the New Testament.

searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=remembrance&section=2&translation=kjv&oq=remembrance&new=1&sr=1

Enjoy your study and I pray right now as I post this you will both see and hear the word of God speak to your heart…amen.

 

[NonCatholic]

FLAT OUT WRONG,AND I WILL PRAY FOR YOU, YOU CANNOT READ JOHN 6 AND WALK AWAY WITH ANYTHING ELSE UNLESS YOU ARE BLIND TO THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, MAY HE HAVE NERSY ON YOUR SOUL

Prove it from the Bible and not your traditions. Did you read Luke,
1Corinthians and Hebrews?..that is in the Bible Bill. Lets see…believers are saints and a “royal priesthood”, the qualifications for the shepherds include the idea of marriage and does not forbid, but rather encourages…your religion takes away this blessing. Why? History will tell you it is a tale of greed and corruption.

 

[Protestant101]

FLAT OUT WRONG,AND I WILL PRAY FOR YOU, YOU CANNOT READ JOHN 6 AND WALK AWAY WITH ANYTHING ELSE UNLESS YOU ARE BLIND TO THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, MAY HE HAVE NERSY ON YOUR SOUL

The key phrase in John 6, regarding the Lord’s Supper, is “in remembrance.” A phrase that is absent in most of the Catholic theology regarding this subject. (most, but not all).

No one is “blind” just because they have a different view than do Catholics on this. It remains to be proven too that the ones who walked away from Jesus in John 6, were NOT priests of the early Catholic Church. Protestants, since then, have remained with the way Jesus taught this subject: “in remembrance.” The symbolism is clear here and throughout the Bible.

 

[NonCatholic]

Do you say that Christ’s flesh is useless?

Can you read?

 

[benedictus2]

They did indeed have a personal relationship with Him.

Now that they are in heaven yes. But, please show chapter and verse where it says so in the the OT.

 

[Matariel]

The key phrase in John 6, regarding the Lord’s Supper, is “in remembrance.” A phrase that is absent in most of the Catholic theology regarding this subject. (most, but not all).

I don’t see where in John 6 it says “in rememberance”. Are you thinking of the Last Supper? And I don’t see how it is absent from the Church’s theology. A Sacrament is in rememberance, but it also fulfills what it is in rememberance of.

No one is “blind” just because they have a different view than do Catholics on this. It remains to be proven too that the ones who walked away from Jesus in John 6, were NOT priests of the early Catholic Church. Protestants, since then, have remained with the way Jesus taught this subject: “in remembrance.” The symbolism is clear here and throughout the Bible.

Not really. The Protestants’ untenable view of this and other passages (such as where St. Paul speaks of “decerning the Body and Blood of the Lord” in the Eucharist and being the Sacrament being a partaking of Christ, etc.) as well as there not being able to trace their memorialist view of this any further back than the humanist Zwingli, and their disregard of the early Christian’s views of this, all contributed me to concede that the Church is right on this. That’s why I’m joining the Church this Easter.

 

[benedictus2]

Very good points. You forgot to mention also that Satan believes in Jesus too. (see James 2:19).

Now, we are ready to ask the question: “What does that mean?”

Precisely my point. You are the one who brought up that believing in Him is the prerequisite to eternal life.

Now the ball is in your court.

What does this believing mean?

Is that all you can do, ask the same question I asked you?

Seems to me you don’t have any answer, hmmmm?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Prove it from the Bible and not your traditions. Did you read Luke,
1Corinthians and Hebrews?..that is in the Bible Bill. Lets see…believers are saints and a “royal priesthood”, the qualifications for the shepherds include the idea of marriage and does not forbid, but rather encourages…your religion takes away this blessing. Why? History will tell you it is a tale of greed and corruption.

NOT GOT AROUND TO READ ALL THREE CHAPTER YET BUT WORKING ON IT .I DID READ LUKE 22-19-20 AND HE WAS TALKING TO YET ANOTHER AUDIENCE I BELIEVE THE GENTILE AND I STILL CAN’T FIND THE WORD 'SYMBOLISM 'AND LUKE DID NOT SAY IT WAS NOT 'SYMBOLIC

 

[benedictus2]

One of the greatest misunderstandings of Christ and His salvation is when people start saying “we must be like Jesus.” Now, before you get out some more of your internet tomatoes to throw at me; just listen for a change.

It is not wrong for us to want to be like Jesus; and to seek His experience as our own. This is exactly what Jesus wants.

What Jesus wants is for us to believe in Him enough to do what He COMMANDED. And what was HIS COMMAND? Eat my body, drink my blood.

No amount of Bible twisting will make you wiggle out of that one.

That you want to disobey Jesus by not following his command is fine. Hey, you have free will after all.

One of the several reasons I dared to state here that I protest the Mass is because of thinking which says: “Jesus Christ is not telling His family to figuratively nourish themselves on His sin-prone human nature --is He?”

As always, you missed Joe’s point. What he is saying is that if we are to read “flesh” figuratively, the figurative meaning of “flesh” is sinful nature. So if Jesus said eat my flesh and we are to read that figuratively, then Jesus is saying eat my sinful nature.

Is that still too hard to comprehend?

This is a classic falsehood. Jesus wants us to do what He did and to have His experience that He had while here on earth. But how far do we carry this? I don’t see Catholics being "literal" when it comes to hanging oneself on the cross. Jesus is called a “Lion” in Rev.5:5, so why don’t you eat lion meat at Mass?

Aaah, but Jesus did not say eat the lion, did he? He said eat my flesh? And everyone knows the lion here is a metaphor just as every Jew knows that when he said eat my flesh, he meant it literally.

The classic falsehood is your interpretation.

When Jesus was here on earth; He did do one thing that we are supposed to also do. Jesus overcame, the exact same way He expects us to. Jesus overcame sin from His human strength perspective, by depending upon God and His Word to get Him through - just like we are to do. There was nothing “wrong” with Jesus’ “sin-prone” human nature. To suggest otherwise is heresy.

When Jesus was here on earth He did COMMAND ONE THING. EAT MY FLESH, DRINK MY BLOOD.

If you pull out those fingers from your ears, you will actually hear His Words.

Stop muzzling Jesus.

 

[benedictus2]

Flat out wrong…John chapter six is the salvation message; not the Lords supper. Do a word study on the word remembrance and then look at the account of Luke, then I Corinthians - the areas speaking of the Lords Supper-pay close attention to what the Lord actually says and not what you imagine he says.

Okay, you are now just re-hashing your argument which you have presented before and which we have already addressed.

Well how about Matthew 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, **“Take and eat; this is my body.” **27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "**Drink from it, all of you, **28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

In John 6 Christ explains before and after what the feeding of His flesh and blood mean.

Yes, John 6 is very clear about what the feeding of His flesh and blood meant. As I and others have show in previous post.

You on the other hand, every time you quote purposely exclude verses 52 to 58. These are the verses where he makes his audience understand exactly what he means. There is no letting up in the language, there is not letting up on the emphasis.

 

[MDK]

Can you read?

Yes, I can. Thank you for asking. What I read from many of your posts is a bit disturbing. Now, the person with their thinking cap on might determine that Christ was talking about His Flesh being more than just flesh. Christ is discussing that there is real life in His flesh, as it is not mere human flesh, but more in that He has the nature of God as well. So, when you try to use that Scripture passage to denigrate the idea of God’s flesh being present in the Eucharist, then you are denying Christ’s teaching. The teaching is that Christ’s flesh is more than just flesh, as there is life in it. If we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, we have life in us.