Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[Matariel]

The Church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity.

As usual, quick reactionary statements with no evidence for your position. Where’d the Canon become established? Who established it? Where did they get their authority?

Christ established no such institution.

Again, emotional statements with no wieght behind them. Where is evidence for your position? Please provide it.

Here you go again showing your arrogance toward Scripture; you just can’t seem to help yourselves since the defense is lame.

“Arrogance toward Scripture”? The man-made Protestant sects would not even have it if our Church did not preserve Holy Scripture.

Is this mumbo-jumbo or hocus-pocus? I have great concern for the souls of the Catholics; my heart bleeds and mourns over all of you.

There is no need to mourn for those in the fullness of the Truth, given to us by God through His holy and undivided Catholic Church.

 

[hughi]

Then why are you discussing this with the fundamental evangelicals and protestants and others who know it is symbolic; shouldn’t they all be dead according your standard. Do you think before you post?

This is trampling over the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. Only the unregenerate mind can twist it as you and others do.

Dear NonCatholic:

I wonder how much sympathy you’d receive from the Greek or Russian Orthodox? You might find them far less welcoming and forgiving that Roman Catholics, for whom the Western influence of Humanism has been far more pervasive.

In this regard, I agree with Pope JP2. Without the Eastern Orthodox, the Chruch is breathing with only one, and not two lungs.

Their spirituality is often reduced, by some authorities, to the simple recitation of the “Jesus Prayer:”

“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner.”

Interestingly, their apologetics is also much more straightforward: oftentimes a simple dismissal of those they consider heretics. They just don’t have time for it.

So here’s my suggestion: log on to some of thier web sites (if you can find one) and have a field day.

 

[benedictus2]

The Church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity

So you refuse to read the link I gave? Why? Are you so afraid of the Truth? That truly baffles me.

You call it as you see it; I call it an obvious oversight and a ridiculous and arrogant statements I have seen all over this place concerning “where the Bible” came from.

Well then why don’t you refute it properly? Prove your point.

The fact that all you can come up with is sarcastic one liners means that you absolutely have no fact to support your argument. It is sad to see you re-hashing your arguments when it has been disproved time and again. If you are going to rebut us, then please address the points we raised.

I wish I could put the words of truth in your mouths

See, here is another one of your one liner that does not address the point you are answering. I think your fear is increasing. It is actually quite palpable.
Or else, someone else is answering on your behalf.

Calling the kettle black are you?
And yet another proof that you are losing ground. You are not coming up with any sensible argument at all. What is happening with you?

Christ established no such institution.

I am putting here a link to the History of the Church.
I doubt very much that enslaved by fear as you are you will even bother to read it.
But here it is anyway
The History of the Catholic Church (diagram)

Time line of the Catholic Church to 1 – 500 BC

Here you go again showing your arrogance toward Scripture; you just can’t seem to help yourselves since the defense is lame.
Are you so profoundly ignorant of Biblical history that you do not even know when the NT was written?
Here is that link again that you refused to read
Timeline of how the Bible came to us

Is this mumbo-jumbo or hocus-pocus? I have great concern for the souls of the Catholics; my heart bleeds and mourns over all of you.

Do you know how irrational you sound with this post.

You did not even ask me to prove this claim. W**hy is that? **I think you know deep in your heart that we speak the truth. But you would rather cling to the lie that you know because it is scary to admit that you are wrong.

If you have any guts, you will ask me to prove the truth of this claim and you will actually read my reply:
“Do you know that by believing the inerrancy of the Bible you are actually affirming (although you do not realize it) your belief in the Catholic Church?”

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Dear Non-Catholic:

I wonder how much sympathy you’d receive from the Greek or Eastern Orthodox? You might find them far less welcoming and forgiving that Roman Catholics. In this regard, I agree with Pope JP2. Without the Eastern Orthodox, the Chruch is breathing with only one, and not two lungs. Their spirituality is often reduced, by some authorities, to the simple recitation of the “Jesus Prayer:” “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner.”

**Hi Hugh,

I also agree, We both are the real church established by Jesus 2,000 years ago. The CC has 220 sects still united through the sacraments and the real teachings of Jesus! In 2007, the Vatican released a statement having very few misgivings about the validity of Orthodox Church, which had “true sacraments” and a genuine priesthood. But it was noted that their failure to acknowledge the Pope’s authority meant they suffered from a “defectus”, politely translated from Latin as “a wound”. They are however considered Christians in every sense of the word! They are our brethren!

Protestant churches however, in this declaration approved by Pope Benedict XVI, are considered mere “ecclesial communities” and their ministers effectively phonies with no right to give communion.
This statement should have left no doubt about the Pope’s eagerness to back traditional Roman Catholic practices and attitudes, even at the expense of causing offence to the blind followers of Satan. The view that Protestants cannot have real churches was first set out by Pope Benedict seven years ago when, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he headed the Vatican “ministry” for doctrine. A commentary attached to the latest text acknowledged that the 2000 document, Dominus Iesus, signed by PJPII did cause “no little distress”. But it also added: "It is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to [Protestant communities], given that they do not accept the theological notion of the Church in the Catholic sense and that they lack elements considered essential to the Catholic Church."The Pope’s old department, which issued the document, said its aim was to correct “erroneous or ambiguous” interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, which ended in 1965.
Quoting a text approved by the 2nd Vatican Council, it said Protestant churches, “because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood”, had not “preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery”. **

 

[NonCatholic]

** Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Notice in verse 20 “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” here Jesus expounds on the significance of His blood being shed as a promise of the New Covenant - notice He said “in My blood”, not “drink my blood**”.

Really???

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and** drink his blood,** you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and** drinks my blood has eternal life**, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my **blood is true drink. **Whoever eats my flesh and **drinks my blood **remains in me and I in him…

Non-Catholic --you might want to re-think that…

you might want to get your subject matter correct and your time line in order…these two things might, but won’t, help you get the context and thus the interpretation correct. John 6 has nothing to do with the Lords Supper…who told you that? Have you ever wondered if it was cannibalism? That was your God-given conscience putting that doubt in there. Did you know the OT prohibits eating of flesh and blood; would Jesus do or say something that was not scriptural? Would something invented by men do that?

 

[joe370]

**Originally Posted by benedictus2 View Post
And when did we ever say that God is not the author of Scripture?

Seems like a fair question. **

I wish I could put the words of truth in your mouths

**What are these words of truth? Surely truth can be found in the bible; These collection of books, as opposed to the bevy of pseudo-books, circulating for 100’s of years, that didn’t make it into the cannon --thanks to the C.C. (If not the C.C., then who?) --are the teachings of Jesus.

What, in the bible is referred to as, the pillar and foundation of truth?

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the** pillar and foundation of truth.**

If the"pillar" and “foundation” (the Church --as per scripture) was created to support our faith --our beliefs --, doesn’t that include the Bible. How did the early Church survive without the Bible, as we know it today, for the first three hundred years?

Furthermore, if the Church is the “pillar” supporting everything, vis-a-vis Jesus’ teachings, including the Bible, doesn’t that mean Jesus’ Apostolic Church is the interpreter of Scripture rather than the individual?

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Wasn’t the Holy Spirit sent to Jesus’ Apostolic Church at Pentecost, to holy men? They were certainly holy after their experience at Pentecost.

Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

By building His Apostolic Church, Jesus, through the intercession of the Holy Spirit, guiding Jesus’ Apostolic Church, manifested Himself to ALL; wouldn’t you agree?

Where in scripture does it say, scripture alone should be the pillar and foundation of truth? If you don’t believe scripture is our ultimate benchmark --what is? Is it another church, other than the C.C.; Am I missing something? **

 

[Church_Militant]

NC,

Why did you not answer me in post 660?

 

[benedictus2]

you might want to get your subject matter correct and your time line in order…these two things might, but won’t, help you get the context and thus the interpretation correct. John 6 has nothing to do with the Lords Supper…who told you that? Have you ever wondered if it was cannibalism? That was your God-given conscience putting that doubt in there. Did you know the OT prohibits eating of flesh and blood; would Jesus do or say something that was not scriptural? Would something invented by men do that?

And yet another thing that has been replied to and refuted several times.

You are beginning to sound like you’ve just come into this thread and have started posting without reading what has transpired.

Either you’ve suffered memory loss or you have someone else answering on your behalf.

 

[NonCatholic]

I have already refuted this point twice in this thread and the latest one I addressed to you on post 698.

I will try to locate all other refutations of this point in this thread.

Why bother…you believe in cannibalizing Jesus and I don’t. What more needs to be said between you and I on this topic? I am consistent with the teaching of Scripture and you are not. I have a supreme view of Scripture, you put it the same class as your Churches doctrines and traditions, which puts is a lower view of Scripture. I believe Christ dies once and for all; you do not.

 

[NonCatholic]

NC,

Why did you not answer me in post 660?

Have you ever been bombarded from all sides and overlooked something? Sorry I overlooked your post…I will go an d see it right now.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Do you have the Christian altar of which the author of Hebrews speaks? Most evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant buildings do not have altars, as far as I can see.

**Hi Matariel,

Welcome to the Truth! I am curious. What made you see the truth? I am a Cradle Catholic, not that it makes me any different. I am a Texan but not a cradle Texas. I say :I got here as soon as I could" because I love Texas I feel that away about converts. They got here as soon as they could because of love!
It is always interesting to hear a conversion story if you don’t mind sharing.

God Bless**

 

[benedictus2]

. Did you know the OT prohibits eating of flesh and blood; would Jesus do or say something that was not scriptural? Would something invented by men do that?

EXACTLY! That is why there is absolutely no doubt that the disciples who left knew He was not speaking metaphorically.

Jesus was a devout jew. Wouldn’t you think that he would at least say to them, " No you misunderstand me. I am not asking you to eat my flesh at all.".

 

[Cinette]

Then why are you discussing this with the fundamental evangelicals and protestants and others who know it is symbolic; shouldn’t they all be dead according your standard. Do you think before you post?

This is trampling over the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. Only the unregenerate mind can twist it as you and others do.

You wouldn’t last a single day as a Diplomat!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

This is a great question - I didn’t believe this - then came to believe it fully and it is this doctrine more than any other doctrine which started my journey toward the Catholic Church.

For those having difficulty accepting this teaching - you are not the first - John 6:30-70 includes a vivid description of many disciples of Christ who could not accept this teaching and left Jesus over it (and he let them leave) after jesus told them truly truly unless you eat my flesh and blood you have no “eternal life” When Jesus turned then to the apostles and asked if they would also leave - they said where would we go - you have the words of “eternal life” (what words? that we must literally partake of the blood and body of Christ).

This is echoed by Paul in Corinthians (twice) - where he says participation in the eucharist is "participation in the blood and body of Christ’ and again when he warns about not partaking of the Eucharist without “discerning the body”.

If this isn’t enough, the earliest writings of the church fathers (e.g,. Ignatious, a direct disciple of John - author of the gospel cited above) states that only the heretics deny the real presence in the Eucharist.

Finally - I found it interesting (and a little freightening) that John 6:66 (mark of the beast) is in fact the verse where the disciples left Jesus over the unwillingness or inability to believe in the literal presence in the Eucharist. That is something to think about.

Blessings,

Brian

Hi Brien, You know I realy usto when I was a child think I was eating Jesus body because thats what we were taught,but it made me sick and I usto be afraid of receiving because of that. Then after I left the faith I never gave it much thought untill just now.If there is scripture to back it up then i believe it,if Jesus said it i beleive it. Any more scripture on it? Nancy,Hi Gramps

 

[benedictus2]

Why bother…you believe in cannibalizing Jesus and I don’t. What more needs to be said between you and I on this topic?** I am consistent with the teaching of Scripture** and you are not. I have a supreme view of Scripture, you put it the same class as your Churches doctrines and traditions, which puts is a lower view of Scripture. I believe Christ dies once and for all; you do not.

We have shown that you are not consistent with scripture.

And you are showing your ignorance again about our belief because we never ever said that Christ dies all over again.

You do not have a supreme view of scripture. You have what is called bibliolatry.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Brien, You know I realy usto when I was a child think I was eating Jesus body because thats what we were taught,but it made me sick and I usto be afraid of receiving because of that. Then after I left the faith I never gave it much thought untill just now.If there is scripture to back it up then i believe it,if Jesus said it i beleive it. Any more scripture on it? Nancy,Hi Gramps

Read from the beginning of this thread and you will be enundated with scripture to back it up.

It is a pity that you did not know what your faith was all about.

 

[NonCatholic]

Really? Show me where it specifically says that.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Even though you see; yet you do not believe.

 

[Cinette]

**John 6:56-57

“Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood, abide** in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father so whoever eats me will live because of me.”

John 15:4-5

“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it *abides *in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.”

These words of Jesus are clear as crystal. It is recommended that one should meditate prayerfully on these words and not dismiss them.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Have you ever been bombarded from all sides and overlooked something? Sorry I overlooked your post…I will go an d see it right now.

**
Hi Non,

Yea, I have noticed! I pray for you buddy! But truthfully, isn’t it kind of cool having so many people actually worried about your soul? Can’t you feel the love?
You are loved, believe that and pray. The truth will come. The HS won’t allow a good person like you to continue to be lost to Satan and his false teachings.

I am positive that you realize, deep in the heart of your heart, that your beliefs do not “fill” the need that belief in Jesus places in our very soul. The emptiness you feel is the real hunger for the Body of Christ! Your soul is starving for His real presense to nourish it.

Prayer, it is the answer to all your questions. Ask the Blessed Mother to have her son fill your heart with desire for Him and the truth! He listens to his mother like every good son!

God Bless**

 

[Matariel]

Why bother…you believe in cannibalizing Jesus and I don’t.

It’s interesting that the Pagans persecuted the early Christians and accused them of cannibalism.

What more needs to be said between you and I on this topic? I am consistent with the teaching of Scripture and you are not.

So far you have not demonstrated that. This was just one of the reasons I am becoming Catholic, because it’s so obvious that Protestants have their head in the sand on this issue.

I have a supreme view of Scripture, you put it the same class as your Church’s doctrines and traditions, which puts is a lower view of Scripture.

No, Truth cannot contradict Truth.

I believe Christ dies once and for all; you do not.

Yes we do. Catholics believe Christ died once and for all.