Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[thirdn6]

**
Hi Third,

You got that idea from my post #130, didn’t you?

God Bless**:

:ehh:
Misfire! No, sir… honestly.
Recalibrate your guns. We’re on the same side.
God bless you, too.

(Went back to glance on your post…
What the … we quoted the same verse!
I was contemplating about the childhood of Jesus for a few days now when it occurred to me… honestly)

 

[pneuma07]

Hi. Truly good to hear from you again. …
Your argument assumes no expunging or editing on this matter occured, but it seems that the early and medieval church was not above doing such things. .

Dear Radical,

  then, since we are here, let's go on. It will be up to the moderator to split these lines, if necessary.  Anyway, I'll be looking forward to any new related thread of yours. :)

Every argument from silence has to look for the possibility of …an artificial silence. I fully agree.
But this cannot be streched without limits. Else, we could buy almost any sort of historical mith with the
“ erased evidence” theory.

Let’s see Tertullian. Not an irenist indeed: his expositions have a natural tendency towards confrontation, you’d say. You put him in the NRP field. Let’s assume this for now.
Wasn’t there any RP guy in his radar screens to argue with ? Or, he decided to abstain from any confrontation precisely with them, both as a Catholic ( may I say so ?) and a Montanist. He speaks too many times about the Eucharist to assume that was a marginal issue in his belief system.

Anyway, just an example. The whole issue assumes much, much more.

We’re not speaking about destroying or just forgetting works by heathens or notorious heresiarchs. What we need is that those works by any otherwise revered ECF who could deal with NRP versus RP ( or the other way, as well), was destroyed or forgotten or lost. That could be somehow possible.
What is more surprising, no quotation from those lost works appears survived anywhere. No more tracks of unmercifully checked and expunged passages relating to any such controversies in any other existing work by ECFs. And no copy lost in antiquity and rediscovered in modern centuries, to enlighten us about such a wide conspiracy.

It means the Church was not only 1) deliberately deceitful, and everywhere so. She was 2) extremely efficient. And she was 3) very, very lucky. I cannot believe she was any of the above.
You appear inclined to believe 1), but how could you bet on 2) plus 3) ?

(BTW In how many other cases did the Church destroy the evidence of controversies related to the innovations she had accepted ? )

That’s not all. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, having broken communion with Rome and Constatinople in the V century (and I understand the great manuscripts hunting did not take place before that century), that notwithstanding, had to be partners in the conspiracy. And major ones, since substantial amounts of ancient christian manuscripts come from their territories.
They too, (all of them), had to be deliberately deceitful , extremely efficient, and very, very lucky.

Moreover, while any confrontational work, or quotation, or passage was burnt, the very texts which in your view are indicative or even clear supports of the defeated party were carefully preserved. Why were they not considered embarassing at all ?

I may add: if the conspiracy deleted every and any evidence of controversies, were are at the very least friendly rebukes ? Victims of the conspiracy as well ?

I guess we have enough to feed some serious perplexities about the “destruction of evidence” counter-argument in our case.

And the Eucharist is central to the faith and liturgy of Apostolic Churches, not a matter to be forgotten to go after any other sort of controversies ( or rebukes).

If , nevertheless, any time you produce, say, a coptic or aramaic III or IV century treaty “Against the abominable innovation of those who claim Our Lord is eaten every day”, after due examinations, I will publicly recant on this.

Not to introduce more stuff here, but you may note that the first millennium differences in mainstream christianity you mention about the petrine principle, were precisely that: about the principle, its nature, its implications…. . Not controversies against or for the existence of the principle. ( I guess I cannot count on your agreement here )

You can and should expect variations about the explanation and development of a principle. That is by far another matter than controversies about the principle itself being there or not. Introducing a new principle is not a development. It is full innovation. That sort of innovation , in doctrinal elements, and not just eg mores, which threatens the depositum fidei, whose preservation is a major task of the Church. So if I had “created” a new principle, alien to Sacred Tradition, I would have been detected and fought.
Real Presence, according to your basic assumption, would precisely be such a principle.

While your guess about the geography of the early RP may be as reasonable as another one, I wonder what modern works of church history deal with this rise of RP and its features.

As for Ignatius you say he was (mistakenly) taken for a RP promoter. No wonder about that.
( A good many contemporary NRP christians see him like this. Some of them inferring his entire corpus is nothing but a forgery, albeit an ancient one, others seeming happy to see that we have proof that some NRP, ie his adversaries and targets, were already there around 100 AD).
You mean he was an involuntary source of the RP innovation (although I guess the NT would qualify for that status).

But I was not looking for involuntary sources, rather for whom was “really” RP.
Which ante-nicene ECFs, if any, according to your criteria and readings and of their works, would awarely accept and spread RP ? Who was the first one ?

Temperatures here today: High 0C, Low -3C.
Snow is about a foot thick.

Bless you.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

: Misfire! No, sir… honestly. Recalibrate your guns.

**
Hi Third,
No shot ~ just an observation! **

We’re on the same side. God bless you, too.

(Went back to glance on your post… What the … we quoted the same verse!

**Well, you said we are on the same side! And Great minds do think alike! **

I was contemplating about the childhood of Jesus for a few days now when it occurred to me… honestly.

** It just surprised me that you were kind of in line with what I wrote. Now I know you didn’t read my post first! :bighanky: I have read the Hidden books of the Bible, they have a lot of stories about Jesus’ childhood. many 'stories" I was told as a child seems to have came down in oral Tradition from them books! There is also some “weird” things like Jesus getting angry at another kid and touching Him and making Him die and making birds out oh clay and breathing on them and them coming alive and flying away! Things like that were probably why they weren’t accepted at inspired? **

Radical:
IIRC yesterday was high -7C, low -19C.

Here is a simple question in return. If I said that it wasn’t nearly cold enough to plug in the block heater, would the typical fellow from San Antonio know what I was talking about?

**
Hi Radical,

If by “Block heater” you are meaning engine block heater for vehicle you would realize that just because it was 70F here today that I have been in many Cold Countries. (27 years in Military in wirdwide assignments) and we are expecting 75-80 next week.
Our winter lasted 2 or 3 hours the other week! I almost put on a long sleeve shirt! I am a “displaced” Yankee from Phila. Penna .
Unfortunately, the typical fellow from san Antonio probably doesn’t understand English!**

pneuma07:
Temperatures here today: High 0C, Low -3C.
Snow is about a foot thick.
**
Hi pneuma,

Snow? Is that the cold, white stuff? Haven’t seen any in 18 years, I think that is what it was called.

I was wondering if anyone has ever told you that only are you verbose, redundant and superfluous, but you also tend to use more words than necessary.

I have 18 years of education if you count the 4 years in 5th and the 7 in 6th grade. You and Radical sound like you have even finished High school! Errr, could you speak in English some times? **

**
By the way guys the OP is ~ Re: Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?**
**
As a real Catholic, I do believe in the real presence and I even believe that some Protestant denominations also teach and believe that. However, I also know that only churches with “real” Apostolic succession actually have that real presence so necessary for salvation according to Jesus Himself!

God Bless
**

 

[NonCatholic]

HMGS1,

What does the number 666 stand for?

Surely it stands for Anti- christ. Truely those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are all Ant-christ leading up to the beast himself.

My point is in (John 6: 66) From this time on, many of his disciples broke away and would NOT REMAIN IN HIS COMPANY ANY LONGER…

**HMGS1, These men are considered anti- christs for they walked away and remained no longer with Jesus Christ, yes, that will be difined as an Ant-christ in Gods Book.

HMGS1, now why did these men leave?**

They Left because they could not believe in “Transubstantiation” For they said among themselves how can this man gives us HIS FLESH TO EAT and Drink His BLOOD. These men left Jesus Christ and became ANTI-cHRISTS

Not by Consubstantiation, not by real presence by Pious Silence, not by real presence by Pneumatic Presence, or the phrase "do this in memory of me. Any of the above in this paragraph, these men would of accepted and never would of left Jesus Christ.

**Again, However these men knew EXACTLY that Jesus Christ meant and that is TRANSUBSTANTIATION, therefore they left Jesus and became Anti-christs, **

The word Transubstantiation perhaps was not a word back then, BUT! The definition of it was.

Back then there was not a word for Airplane, you get my point.

HMGS1, now is this a coincidence that we find this in (JOHN 6:66)**** or a GOD- INCIDENCE?

How the Holy Spirit Works as in (John 6:66) the Holy Spirit show us all that those who do not believe in the Body and Blood of Christ 'transubstantiation" are considered to be 666 in (John 6:66) this is not a coinicidence but a GOD INCIDENCE:thumbsup:

IF any one is considered as an anti-christ then that person will go to hell
**
We all must believe in Tansubstantiation With God all things are possible.**

Ufamtobie

666 is symbolic for man…that’s it.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Dear Radical,
… Let’s see Tertullian. Not an irenist indeed: his expositions have a natural tendency towards confrontation, you’d say. You put him in the NRP field. Let’s assume this for now…
**
Hi pneuma and Radical,

Lets not be so hasty to do that!. From quotations by Tertullian in “This is My Body: Eucharist in the Early Fathers”

Click here:Early Fathers **
we see the following evidence Tertullian believed –

(1) The Eucharist is REALLY the body and blood of Christ (we shall deal exhaustively with the term “figure” below)

(2) The “Body of the Lord” and not mere “bread” was RESERVED for later

(3) The Mass or Eucharistic service was called a SACRIFICE

(4) The Mass was OFFERED for our DEPARTED loved ones

Question: Could an Luther, Calvin, Zwingli or any of the Reformers say “AMEN” to each of these points? NO! Only Catholics and Orthodox can! Again, the point is not whether Tertullian used the specific term transubstantiation but whether the Catholic position is compatible with his statements on the Eucharist. Indeed, it is! So radical, you must conceed that Terullian was RP,correct?

 

[NonCatholic]

This seems mildly insulting. I make it my business to know exactly what my church believes on such a matter and no church that I attended ever flip-flopped on this issue or differed from my view. As such, I would tell my kid exactly what I believed

the truth would be that I am not unsure. I might explain to them the unfortunate view of certain Christian denominations …the view that Jesus is bodily present. I would, at the same time, explain that some of those denominations also possess the unfortunate view that they are the true church. In the process I would use scripture and history to demonstrate the error of those denominations…there is so much ammunition available for that purpose, the trick would be to keep the lesson short enough to not lose my child’s attention…after all, my child could see that it is just bread and wine and would likely start to think that a long winded explanation isn’t needed when the answer is so obvious.
nah,

Maybe this will help to make it short for the children. I can give the Catholic rebuttal later if you would like…send me a PM.

Romans 6:8 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Hebrews 7:25-27 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, {sound familiar?} for this ****He did once **for all when He offered up Himself. **

**The clear teaching above **is that the ONE sacrifice Christ made in the cross was the only sacrifice needed. At the Mass, Christ is sacrificed over and over and over …

**The result and the command **that Scripture gives us to follow.

**1 Corinthians 10:21-22 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. ** 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

666 is symbolic for man…that’s it.

**Hi Non,

No it is the number of A Man!

It has also been said to be symbolic for “www” like in world wide web. People say that in Hebrew www equals 666! So the internet is the Devil’s tool!

How do they get 666 from www? Neither, the Hebrew and Greek alphabet have separate characters or alphabets for numbers and letters. Letters are also used as numbers. So each letter is assigned a numerical value.

The Hebrew equivalent of our “w” is the letter “vav” or “waw”. The numerical value of vav is 6. So the English “www” transliterated into Hebrew is “vav vav vav”, which numerically is said to be 666.

Revelation 13:18 reads:

“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

Note that the number is NOT simply three SIXES or 6-6-6,

It is 600 + 60 + 6, or the number “Six hundred sixty and six”.

In Revelation 13:18 we’re told to “count the number of the beast”. How do we “count the number of the beast”?

In Revelation 14:11 the mark is referred to “the mark of his NAME”.
In Revelation 13:17, 15:2 it’s called “the number of his NAME”.

So the “mark” and “number” refer to his “name”.

As I mentioned, in the Greek and Hebrew languages there are no “numbers” such as 1, 2, 3, or 666. The Greek and Hebrew letters are also numbers. Gematria is the adding up or “counting” (Rev 13:18), the numerical equivalent of each letter in a word or name. This was fairly common in the days before alphabetic numbers.
For instance, on the walls of ancient Pompeii, someone wrote, “I love her whose number is 545”.

For instance, it’s common knowledge, and you may know that the name of Jesus in Greek equals 888

Grant Jeffrey writes in Prince of Darkness:

The number 666 indicates that the letters in the Greek form of the name of the Antichrist will add up to 666. There is a slim possibility that his name will equal 666 in the Hebrew language since the Antichrist will be Jewish. The numeric system does not work in English or in languages other than Greek or Hebrew, so it is useless to calculate the values of names in these modern languages. (Grant R. Jeffrey, Prince of Darkness, pp. 275, 277)

The “count the number of the beast” is the total of adding the letter/numerical value of his name. This “count” equals "Six hundred sixty and six’, not simply three 6’s or 666.

So if we apply the clear teaching of Revelation 13:18 to the Hebrew

“www”, we actually have 6+6+6 or 18 — not 666. But the Man’s neme will add up to 600+60+6 or 666. That is the sign of the Devil!**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

… At the Mass, Christ is sacrificed over and over and over …

**Hi Non,

We both know that is a lie! What foolishness!

Christ died only once for our sins! By Faith in Jesus and His teachings, when we attend Mass we are transported back in time to the actual death of Our lord" He doesn’t die again. To think so would be just as foolish as believing Jesus isn’t all powerful and able to preform miracles. Catholics, actually revisit His death! We are at the last supper with Him and at the foot of the cross as he dies! Unlike Protestants that may read about it, we actually experience it every time we attend Mass! Jesus gave His Body and Blood only once! And like with the bread and fish, He miraculously provides His Body and Blood to us so that we can obtain eternal life. He Gives life to our soul by our eating His body and by drinking His blood. To state otherwise is to foolishly limit the Power of Jesus and call Him a Liar!

Do you know that Catholics are forbidden to take Protestant communion? We were warned not to in the NT. It clearly states: " You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons." - 1 Corinthians 10:21-22

Yup, we were warned.

God Bless**

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Nice quick rebuttal, RealCath; but inadventantly calling Protestants “demons” (courtesy of Scripture) won’t further truth.

Good statement, otherwisw

 

[NonCatholic]

**Hi Non,

No it is the number of A Man!

It has also been said to be symbolic for “www” like in world wide web. People say that in Hebrew www equals 666! So the internet is the Devil’s tool!

How do they get 666 from www? Neither, the Hebrew and Greek alphabet have separate characters or alphabets for numbers and letters. Letters are also used as numbers. So each letter is assigned a numerical value.

The Hebrew equivalent of our “w” is the letter “vav” or “waw”. The numerical value of vav is 6. So the English “www” transliterated into Hebrew is “vav vav vav”, which numerically is said to be 666.

Revelation 13:18 reads:

“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man**; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

Note that the number is NOT simply three SIXES or 6-6-6,

It is 600 + 60 + 6, or the number “Six hundred sixty and six”.

In Revelation 13:18 we’re told to “count the number of the beast”. How do we “count the number of the beast”?

In Revelation 14:11 the mark is referred to “the mark of his NAME”.
In Revelation 13:17, 15:2 it’s called “the number of his NAME”.

So the “mark” and “number” refer to his “name”.

As I mentioned, in the Greek and Hebrew languages there are no “numbers” such as 1, 2, 3, or 666. The Greek and Hebrew letters are also numbers. Gematria is the adding up or “counting” (Rev 13:18), the numerical equivalent of each letter in a word or name. This was fairly common in the days before alphabetic numbers.
For instance, on the walls of ancient Pompeii, someone wrote, “I love her whose number is 545”.

For instance, it’s common knowledge, and you may know that the name of Jesus in Greek equals 888

Grant Jeffrey writes in Prince of Darkness:

The number 666 indicates that the letters in the Greek form of the name of the Antichrist will add up to 666. There is a slim possibility that his name will equal 666 in the Hebrew language since the Antichrist will be Jewish. The numeric system does not work in English or in languages other than Greek or Hebrew, so it is useless to calculate the values of names in these modern languages. (Grant R. Jeffrey, Prince of Darkness, pp. 275, 277)

The “count the number of the beast” is the total of adding the letter/numerical value of his name. This “count” equals "Six hundred sixty and six’, not simply three 6’s or 666.

So if we apply the clear teaching of Revelation 13:18 to the Hebrew

“www”, we actually have 6+6+6 or 18 — not 666. But the Man’s neme will add up to 600+60+6 or 666. That is the sign of the Devil!

Whatever…it’s a man. Go take a taxi in Israel sometime, they all have 666.

 

[NonCatholic]

NonCatholic;4640733:

… At the Mass, Christ is sacrificed over and over and over …

**Hi Non,

We both know that is a lie! What foolishness!

Christ died only once for our sins! By Faith in Jesus and His teachings, when we attend Mass we are transported back in time to the actual death of Our lord"**

He doesn’t die again. To think so would be just as foolish as believing Jesus isn’t all powerful and able to preform miracles. Catholics, actually revisit His death! We are at the last supper with Him and at the foot of the cross as he dies! Unlike Protestants that may read about it, we actually experience it every time we attend Mass! Jesus gave His Body and Blood only once! And like with the bread and fish, He miraculously provides His Body and Blood to us so that we can obtain eternal life. He Gives life to our soul by our eating His body and by drinking His blood. To state otherwise is to foolishly limit the Power of Jesus and call Him a Liar!

Do you know that Catholics are forbidden to take Protestant communion? We were warned not to in the NT. It clearly states: " You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons." - 1 Corinthians 10:21-22

Yup, we were warned.

God Bless

Three things:

1. How much are tickets on the time machine…Oh my gosh!
2. You do not understand you own church’s teaching or got some wrong information.
3. Neither do you understand Scripture and you are unable.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Nice quick rebuttal, RealCath; but inadventantly calling Protestants “demons” (courtesy of Scripture) won’t further truth.

Good statement, otherwise

**
Hi Roam,

Inadvertantly? It was intentional! Why? Because It is the truth! Non foolishly twisted the truth and alledged that the Catholic Mass is the table of demons. Didn’t you read that? I just explained why he was wrong. History provides the proof.

Before 1517AD, there was one christian church, Sure It had several different sects. It still does , and they are still firmly together even today through apostolic succession united in Jesus One true body of christians called the Body of Christ.

500 years ago while some very good people attempted to right some wrong practices that Satan had introduced through human sinfulness into the church, Satan saw this as a change to further infect the christian church and through deception steal souls from the real church.

It worked. Foolishly, today there are over 33,000 counterfeit denominations, and non-denominational groups with 28,000 sub denominations, or various associations, conferences, conventions, communions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults ,unions, socials.

All 61,000 groups use parts of over 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas many of them in direct conflict with Jesus’ real Church. They currently use over 100 versions of corrupted, distorted, and altered copies of authentic scriptures. These provide them with errorious and fatal teachings. They learn and spread counterfeit beliefs attributed to Jesus. The don’t know the real interpretation of scriptures, when thy find out they convert to Catholicism. They must because it is Truth!
They all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They don’t agree with eachother on many things and keep dividing. Like a cancer. They all agree that the Catholic church is wrong. Now who is against Jesus? Remember that the Catholic church has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth even to save souls 500 years ago. Today, the RCC remains faithful to Jesus teachings.
The 61,000 false denominations teaching over 1,375 doctrines are like a cancerous growth on the body of Christ, growing, dividing and infecting the truth church!

The people aren’t demons because they are evil people. Many are really good God fearing people who believe they are saved. Many become better Christians than many people who claim to be Catholics. But, they are demons in the sense that they follow Satan’s churches false teachings and spread his lies mixed in with the real word of God.

“When the Devil quotes Scriptures, it’s not, really, to deceive, but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody
has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.” - Paul Goodman

Money can be 'copied" but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything! It is useless.

Christianity can be copied, 61,000 times or more. But if it doesn’t have t apostolic succession it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church so it is counterfeit. It might not be able to provide salvation!

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will
enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will
of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that
day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in
your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!’ Matt. 7 21-23

" Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the
faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is
in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Co 13-5

Jesus is speaking specifically to people who are devotedly
religious-but who are deluded in thinking they are on the
road to heaven when they are really on the broad road to
hell. They are not unlike those in the last days who Paul
says will hold a form of godliness but will deny its power Read 2 Tim 3:5. **[SIGN]
**coun ter feit **'kaunt-er-fit: to imitate or copy closely especially with intent to deceive.[/SIGN]
**
The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan.

The Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan’s counterfeit: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;. . .” Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.”

Only the Catholic Church offers the real communion. The Eucharist! In it, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually. He is “Completely” present. Our lord and God is in the Mass for real Christians to worship and eat just as He commanded to obtain eternal salvation. Only true believers understand that because the devil keeps his followers blinded to the truth!

We must pray for our Protestant brothers that they can all break free from Satan’s false churches and obtain eternal salvation by the grace in the RCC as Jesus wanted.

God Bless **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Realcatholicgk;4640810:

Three things:

1. How much are tickets on the time machine…Oh my gosh!

**All things are possible through Faith. The price is acknowledgement that Jesus paid the price for our sins, Matthew 10:32-33 and following His real church which he established. **

1. You do not understand you own church’s teaching or got some wrong information.

** Oh, but I do! What do you , an “expert” on my religion and her teachings think I say that isn’t true or taught by Jesus Himself and His real church? When did Jesus Lie? What exactly do you foolishly think I got wrong?

God provides the Church with the correct information and the correct interprertation of scriptures.
Do you want to read about problems with lies? How wrong information gets worse and worse? Here is some information for you:

Click on: Additional False Information Provided by the Devil uncovered by Protestant Church **

1. Neither do you understand Scripture and you are unable.

** I challenge you to prove that statement. because I do understand the real scriptures and I even understand a lot about the false scriptures. Plus, I am able to make complete coherent sentences that back up my knowledge and understanding!

I am glad to help you learn the truth. many cathilocs here will also. You are not alone, you are loved!

God Bless **

 

[BMSODM]

**
Hi Roam,

Inadvertantly? It was intentional! Why? Because It is the truth! Non foolishly twisted the truth and alledged that the Catholic Mass is the table of demons. Didn’t you read that? I just explained why he was wrong. History provides the proof.

Before 1517AD, there was one christian church, Sure It had several different sects. It still does , and they are still firmly together even today through apostolic succession united in Jesus One true body of christians called the Body of Christ.

500 years ago while some very good people attempted to right some wrong practices that Satan had introduced through human sinfulness into the church, Satan saw this as a change to further infect the christian church and through deception steal souls from the real church.

It worked. Foolishly, today there are over 33,000 counterfeit denominations, and non-denominational groups with 28,000 sub denominations, or various associations, conferences, conventions, communions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults ,unions, socials.

All 61,000 groups use parts of over 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas many of them in direct conflict with Jesus’ real Church. They currently use over 100 versions of corrupted, distorted, and altered copies of authentic scriptures. These provide them with errorious and fatal teachings. They learn and spread counterfeit beliefs attributed to Jesus. The don’t know the real interpretation of scriptures, when thy find out they convert to Catholicism. They must because it is Truth!
They all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They don’t agree with eachother on many things and keep dividing. Like a cancer. They all agree that the Catholic church is wrong. Now who is against Jesus? Remember that the Catholic church has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth even to save souls 500 years ago. Today, the RCC remains faithful to Jesus teachings.
The 61,000 false denominations teaching over 1,375 doctrines are like a cancerous growth on the body of Christ, growing, dividing and infecting the truth church!

The people aren’t demons because they are evil people. Many are really good God fearing people who believe they are saved. Many become better Christians than many people who claim to be Catholics. But, they are demons in the sense that they follow Satan’s churches false teachings and spread his lies mixed in with the real word of God.

“When the Devil quotes Scriptures, it’s not, really, to deceive, but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody
has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.” - Paul Goodman

Money can be 'copied" but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything! It is useless.

Christianity can be copied, 61,000 times or more. But if it doesn’t have t apostolic succession it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church so it is counterfeit. It might not be able to provide salvation!

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will
enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will
of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that
day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in
your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!’ Matt. 7 21-23

" Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the
faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is
in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Co 13-5

Only the Catholic Church offers the real communion. The Eucharist! In it, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually. He is “Completely” present. Our lord and God is in the Mass for real Christians to worship and eat just as He commanded to obtain eternal salvation. Only true believers understand that because the devil keeps his followers blinded to the truth!

We must pray for our Protestant brothers that they can all break free from Satan’s false churches and obtain eternal salvation by the grace in the RCC as Jesus wanted.

God Bless **

Hello again my brother***

While you are right about so much of what you said, we cant forget that God judges the heart of the soul. Praise be to God! He is so merciful and even though protestants have been decieved by satan in his attempt to divide the Body of Christ God has turned these crooked doctrines into branches off the True Vine. By His Grace they do produce fruit and they arent demons. There are demons that are diverting the truth and twisting the minds but the souls who seek the righteous will be fed. We must remember there is a large part of catholics who IMO are far more worse off because they being luchwarm and receiving the Real Presence are truelly playing with fire. These protestants who truelly love Know not what they are doing, but these catholics wont be able to make that claim…

I will say this thou, a protestant wont achieve what a devote catholic will in understanding, they dont have the Living Bread and they dont have the Blessed Mother and they dont use the Saints and Angels as tools that were given by God. Its like a carpenter trying to build a work of art with just a hammer and screwdriver. Thye would be far more successful with a whole bag of specialties
tools. The doctrines are more about growth then salvation, if used correctly…

Blessings***

 

[BMSODM]

Maybe this will help to make it short for the children. I can give the Catholic rebuttal later if you would like…send me a PM.

My Brother, your understanding is what is falling short…

Romans 6:8 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

The catholic church doesnt teach that Jesus dies more then once. When they celebrate the Sacrafice of the Mass that doesnt mean they kill Him over and over. It means that we jion Him at the supper and we sit at the cross with Him. We know from scripture that God isnt bound by time and through God we aren’t as well. We join Him in Spirit and Truth.

Paul is teaching the Romans that its no longer necessary to offer up animals over and over as a sacrafice, we now have the true purified Blood without spot or blemish.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

I dont know how this verse is relivent?

Hebrews 7:25-27 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, {sound familiar?} for this ****He did once ****for all when He offered up Himself.

Now you know why the Hebrews were told this, they countinued to keep offering animal sacrafices in place of Jesus. A big no no. They will make His sacrafice void by doing this. My friend your being deceived on the correct context of these Holy Scriptures.

**The clear teaching above is that the ONE sacrifice Christ made in the cross was the only sacrifice needed. ** At the Mass, Christ is sacrificed over and over and over …

Totally a false teaching, be careful of what you say we can commit murder with our words.

**The result and the command **that Scripture gives us to follow.

**1 Corinthians 10:21-22 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. ** 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

Again out of context, these words are to teach us that we shouldnt become partakers in what we know is wrong and a house divided can’t stand. We shouldnt sit and eat with what we know is evil and then sit and eat with what we know is righteous. And I dont mean we shouldnt sit with the sinners, we are just not suppose to partake in the sin itself…

Why dont you answer me what Paul means in this verse…“Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”

How can we be guilty to the point of going to hell of something like having Jesus Blood on our hands if it isnt really His Blood?

 

[NonCatholic]

Again out of context, these words are to teach us that we shouldnt become partakers in what we know is wrong and a house divided can’t stand. We shouldnt sit and eat with what we know is evil and then sit and eat with what we know is righteous. And I dont mean we shouldnt sit with the sinners, we are just not suppose to partake in the sin itself…

Why dont you answer me what Paul means in this verse…“Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”

How can we be guilty to the point of going to hell of something like having Jesus Blood on our hands if it isnt really His Blood?

Do you really want me to answer this for you? Please

 

[BMSODM]

Do you really want me to answer this for you? Please

Yes humor me…

Please explain to me how I can go to hell for unworthily receiving a symbol of something? If its not the real thing then how can I be guilty of it?
Remember, the sentence is life, without parole. Were is the justice in getting life for doing something against a symbol of a man. If there is no actual victim?

Again, Like I said before, if I kill a picture (a symbol) of the president with a knife could I be tryed and convicted and sent to prison for life?

I realize that there is nothing common about common sense but come on brother. Were is the justice in this?

Blessings***

 

[Robbinson]

Hello again my brother***

While you are right about so much of what you said, we cant forget that God judges the heart of the soul. Praise be to God! He is so merciful and even though protestants have been decieved by satan in his attempt to divide the Body of Christ God has turned these crooked doctrines into branches off the True Vine. By His Grace they do produce fruit and they arent demons. There are demons that are diverting the truth and twisting the minds but the souls who seek the righteous will be fed. We must remember there is a large part of catholics who IMO are far more worse off because they being luchwarm and receiving the Real Presence are truelly playing with fire. These protestants who truelly love Know not what they are doing, but these catholics wont be able to make that claim…

I will say this thou, a protestant wont achieve what a devote catholic will in understanding, they dont have the Living Bread and they dont have the Blessed Mother and they dont use the Saints and Angels as tools that were given by God. Its like a carpenter trying to build a work of art with just a hammer and screwdriver. Thye would be far more successful with a whole bag of specialties
tools. The doctrines are more about growth then salvation, if used correctly…

Blessings***

Blessings,l

Brian

 

[phil8888]

Depends on which one you ask, as with so many things. Many don’t, to be sure.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

Does GKC mean GK Chesterton, because he was Catholic.

 

[GKC]

Does GKC mean GK Chesterton, because he was Catholic.

No kidding. Yep, it means just that. A man who was nominally an Anglo-Catholic, until he converted in 1922 (though he had pretty much decided on doing so, by 1909), and a man whose life I have studied and whose works (and critical works on whom) I have read and collected for over 45 years. Got just about everything he wrote, as published under covers in his name (no more than 2 exceptions) by now.

But thanks for for the information.

GKC