Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[NonCatholic]

**Protestant version: “Gather together, shake hands, twist and corrupt the true words of Jesus, shake hands, sing some songs, have a pot luck and go home” I know that Jesus shows up because of the two or more in my name but where is the “worship”? Oh yea, I forgot,:doh2: Maybe when you serve communion, monthly, annually, whenever. The term Communion is derived from Latin “communio” (sharing in common). The corresponding term in Greek is κοινωνία, which is often translated as “fellowship”. So you drink Grape juice and eat what? Orieo’s? in fellowship? Do you do this for some strange reason that you can’t quit remember, because your memory start fading? **

**
The Real Catholic Version:**" We call the consecrated bread “The Host”. This term comes from the Latin word ;hostia;, which actually means ‘victim’. You didn’t know that, did you Non? So intellectual
Catholics know that Jesus Christ is really present in the consecrated bread and wine on our altars. The Mass is offered at Jesus’ command as a re-presentation of the original sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross for each persons sins individually.
Therefore, Jesus is the victim of the sacrifice and we call the bread the host/victim to help us remember that it is no longer bread but the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ given to us to strengthen and help us on the journey to Heaven.

The word Eucharist comes from Late Latin ‘eucharistia’ and from Greek ‘eukharistia’ from ‘eukharistos’ grateful, thankful : eu-, eu- + kharizesthai, to show favor and from kharis, grace. . So by using that word we acknowledge our grateful thankfulness for being shown favor and given grace through the host.

The only minister of the Eucharist, that is, the one authorized to celebrate the rite and consecrate the Eucharist, is a validly ordained priest (either bishop or presbyter) acting in the person of Christ in persona Christi. In other words the priest celebrant represents Christ, who is the Head of the Church, and acts before God the Father in the name of the Church. In this aspect the priest is Jesus, and Jesus is the priest. The priest doesn’t have to command Jesus. Jesus commanded Him and us to do it!

Although the empirical appearances are not changed, the reality of the host is changed by the power of Jesus who conducts this miracle. The separate consecration of the bread and wine represents the separation of Jesus’ body from his blood at Calvary when His blood was shed for all of us and our salvation. The form is, as Jesus Himself commanded many times in the scriptures. Where? However, since he has risen, the Church teaches that his body and blood can no longer be truly separated. Where one is, the other must be. Therefore, although the priest (or minister) says “The body of Christ” when administering the host, and “The blood of Christ” when presenting the chalice, the communicant who receives either one receives Christ, whole and entire savior of the world and the High priest of the sacrifice down to and including his toenail.

If there is a sacrifice and a victim, then is there a death? If so, of whom…Jesus?

 

[two1176]

If Protestants believe that all you need for salvation is faith in Jesus, why do they attend services of Sunday? What exactly is the purpose? Why not stay home with the Bible and believe in Jesus, isn’t that enough? If we are no different in our actions than the rest of society, what good is our faith? No where in the Bible does it say faith alone. My brother and sister who are still Lutheran never go to church services because there is no reason to, after all, they are going to heaven no matter what. Jesus refers to hell more than anyone else in the Bible, if we can’t go to hell, why does He bring it up? Just to scare us? I don’t think so. I am a former protestant and I can’t answer these questions. God Bless.

The Catholic Church is persecuted more than any other religious institution, just like Jesus said we would be. Nobody really pays attention to left leaning protestant churches because they seem to go along with society’s relativism. The Catholic Church takes a lot of flak because She doesn’t make decisions based on popular opinion.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi Mabible,

***Death was introduced to the world because it was the consequence of disobedience to God…

**I agree! **

Life is restored to mankind though the sacrifice…

The act of eating the Body and Blood of Jesus is merely the method by which the redemption occurs.

Jesus said at the last supper to eat and drink in rembrance of Him, not to eat and drink to achieve eternal life.

WRONG! As I stated Jesus said "…Whoever eats (Greek: trogon ) me will live **because of me…Also the one who feeds (trogon) on my flesh will have life " John 6 :48-58. You should never call Jesus a liar!

The normal word in Greek for “eat” is Phagon.The author uses Trogon which literally means to “crunch” or “gnaw”. This is not a passive eat but an active chewing! It can not just a metaphor. The verb tense of Trogon implies continuous consumption. So it implies the need to continue to eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood.It wasn’t just a parable.

****When Jesus referred to his flesh that was given for us, he was forshadowing his physical death. He didn’t actually turn the bread into **skin **Flesh and tell the disciples to eat it.

Yes He did, Although the empirical appearances did not changed, the reality of the bread was changed by the power of Jesus who conducted this miracle, so we can join His apostles at the Last Supper and actually eat His flesh and drink His blood. He that doesn’t believe it doesn’t have life. PERIOD! My God doesn’t lie! .

Jesus spoke in the vernacular of the people. He witnessed to and taught them using stories that they could relate to.

But IF He was doing that in this case, it would have been in the form that He normally used. He clearly made it understood that He wasn’t speaking Metaphorically. Only Satan forces people to think that so he can retain their souls! That is one easy way to spot real non followers of Christ!

***To say that Jesus did not speak using analogies is completely incorrect. Consider the parables that he used to teach.

**Of Course He did! He constantly used analogies and parables! Who said He didn’t? Don’t lie! **

Do you think that he actually showed them a camel passing through the eye of needle? Of course not, it’s an analogy. This method of storytelling/teaching was how He reached out to the people so they would understand Him.

But, did you know that one of the nine gates of Jerusalem, at the time of Jesus was called, the Eye of the Needle? It was so small that camels loaded with merchandise couldn’t pass through it! Pedestrians only! Of course it was an analogy. But I think you also misunderstood that part of the Bible also. You need to be educated in scriptures to realize the truth. The RCC does that! Others teach the lies that they have been taught. It isn’t their fault it is the Devils.

****You should say “non-catholics” rather than protestants because Protestant refers to many different denominations and there are varied beliefs among them.
**
Yes, I could but there is a problem doing that! It would be a lie! To call them “non catholics” (Like Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism) would imply that there were more than one church established by Jesus. There was onlyt one 2,000 uyears ago. Counterfeit would be a much more accurate and correct term. But the 61,000 Protestants groups who share 1,375 different combinations of doctrines and dogmas with their only common thread being their belief that Jesus’ real church is wrong might object! To call them “non catholics” would imply that there were more than one correct church. Protestants, are heretic members of the Catholic church.weather they want to acknowledge it or not! They are not non-catholics. Iagree with you that they are following false and corrupt teachings rather than Jesus real truths! **

***It is both arrogant and judgemental to say that because some protestants do not believe that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ that their soul is in any danger.

Wow! I could never call Jesus Arrogant. However I do agreee His statement was judgemental when He said.to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:53-54 But afterall He is God if that is His Judgement who are we to agrue?

Bible is very specific about what is necessary for eternal life. it says in **Romans 10:8-13 **"

**Yes, It certainally is. So don’t make yourself or scriptures a false god. Pray on the parts that you misunderstand> Ask Jesus to show you the correct way. Prayer is the answer! Remember "If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine Only the Catholic church can tell you what is true and what is lies! And that is Jesus’ truth! **

Participation in a ritual does not get you eternal life. Believe that is does is what really puts someone’s soul in danger.

**But, It does IF Jesus sais it does, and He says that it does! He says you MUST eat to ontain eternal life. Everything else will come from the graces received by taking Jesus into your Body!

God Bless**

 

[GKC]

NonCatholic:
If there is a sacrifice and a victim, then is there a death? If so, of whom…Jesus?

Yes. You may recall it. It occurred on Calvary, a little less than 2000 years ago.

That Sacrifice. That Victim. That death. Re-presented, made present to us, as time and eternity meet.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[look3467]

If Protestants believe that all you need for salvation is faith in Jesus, why do they attend services of Sunday? What exactly is the purpose? Why not stay home with the Bible and believe in Jesus, isn’t that enough?>>>two1176

When a baby first learns to walk, does it than sit and not walk any more?

When we come to the saving knowledge of Christ, and are born again, we have just learned to walk in the spirit.

We all learn to walk, but not all walk in the spirit.

To walk in the spirit requires our born again experience, as Christ is born a babe in our hearts and begins to grow in us to wards our maturity.

We walk, stumble and fall many times, but He is always there to pick us up.

If we learned anything from our walk, we will have matured to a mature spiritual person, one who is not easily swayed by the winds of doctrines.

For we learn to be settled on the solid rock, upon whose faith is our strength for salvation, Jesus Christ.

Church/churches are like spiritual hospitals, where the spiritually sick,weak and lost go to find God.

For the spiritually mature believers, Jesus is our every sustenance, and the church/churches are our clinics for labor of love.

Friendship with spiritually minded folks is a source of group strength, but not necessarily individual strength, because each one of us is at a different level of faith.

One can stand alone, but if one does, one’s dependence on Christ is all there is, for there are no groups of strength to draw from.

I am an independent believer in Christ, secure in my beliefs, not easily rocked by every wind and doctrine, yet able to entertain any belief with all due respect and in the love of Christ.

My present understandings is due in part to life’s experiences with the varies beliefs and what God has taught me via knowledge of His Holy Word and His deemed revelations to me.

I share God when I can, I live as righteous as I can, love my neighbor as I can and worship God in heart wherever I am.

Yes, it is good to have fellowship amongst believers and therefore, it encourages us to participate in Church activities.

I am on this non-catholic thread because I want to share Christ, not religion, but Christ and in doing so, I persuade no one to leave their churches, but rather to remain and continue to worship God as they see fit.

We are first brothers and sister in Christ, then, if the proper Godly attitude is present, our differing beliefs are made as one, for God is one, and His spirit is one.

Let us therefore encourage one another and not discourage one another due to theological difference.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Robbinson]

When a baby first learns to walk, does it than sit and not walk any more?

When we come to the saving knowledge of Christ, and are born again, we have just learned to walk in the spirit.

We all learn to walk, but not all walk in the spirit.

To walk in the spirit requires our born again experience, as Christ is born a babe in our hearts and begins to grow in us to wards our maturity.

We walk, stumble and fall many times, but He is always there to pick us up.

If we learned anything from our walk, we will have matured to a mature spiritual person, one who is not easily swayed by the winds of doctrines.

For we learn to be settled on the solid rock, upon whose faith is our strength for salvation, Jesus Christ.

Church/churches are like spiritual hospitals, where the spiritually sick,weak and lost go to find God.

For the spiritually mature believers, Jesus is our every sustenance, and the church/churches are our clinics for labor of love.

Friendship with spiritually minded folks is a source of group strength, but not necessarily individual strength, because each one of us is at a different level of faith.

One can stand alone, but if one does, one’s dependence on Christ is all there is, for there are no groups of strength to draw from.

I am an independent believer in Christ, secure in my beliefs, not easily rocked by every wind and doctrine, yet able to entertain any belief with all due respect and in the love of Christ.

My present understandings is due in part to life’s experiences with the varies beliefs and what God has taught me via knowledge of His Holy Word and His deemed revelations to me.

I share God when I can, I live as righteous as I can, love my neighbor as I can and worship God in heart wherever I am.

Yes, it is good to have fellowship amongst believers and therefore, it encourages us to participate in Church activities.

I am on this non-catholic thread because I want to share Christ, not religion, but Christ and in doing so, I persuade no one to leave their churches, but rather to remain and continue to worship God as they see fit.

We are first brothers and sister in Christ, then, if the proper Godly attitude is present, our differing beliefs are made as one, for God is one, and His spirit is one.

Let us therefore encourage one another and not discourage one another due to theological difference.

Peace>>>AJ

Amen AJ, Amen.

The beauty of boards, like this, is they provide a forum where we can/should discuss theology and doctrine in love, with patience and for fellowship. I’ve learned some things on this board - and I hope my posts have been helpful to others.

No one on this board is likely to “convert” anyone - only God can do that. So we should stress our common bond in Christ (he who is not against us, is for us - someone magnificient and wonderful said words to that effect.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[two1176]

I know plenty of good protestants so I do not condemn them, I just feel bad for them for they do not really know what they are missing out on. When I was a Lutheran learning about Catholicism, I took a course on JPII’s encyclicals at that pretty much sold me on the truth of the Catholic faith. I have a problem when I see family members with little or no faith because they have been given an incomplete version of the faith. Our Faith has been revealed to us and we should accept it. I think grave errors occur when we tailor it to suit our own tastes. Doing so may make us feel good, but doing the right thing does not necessarily feel good. I am not seeking to convert anyone, I am just writing as someone who has experience as both a Protestant and a Catholic.
As an aside, I think that Christians should be on common ground when it comes to facing a true threat, secular progressive attempts to get rid of religion in the public sphere altogether. :knight2:

 

[look3467]

I know plenty of good protestants so I do not condemn them, I just feel bad for them for they do not really know what they are missing out on. When I was a Lutheran learning about Catholicism, I took a course on JPII’s encyclicals at that pretty much sold me on the truth of the Catholic faith. I have a problem when I see family members with little or no faith because they have been given an incomplete version of the faith. Our Faith has been revealed to us and we should accept it. I think grave errors occur when we tailor it to suit our own tastes. Doing so may make us feel good, but doing the right thing does not necessarily feel good. I am not seeking to convert anyone, I am just writing as someone who has experience as both a Protestant and a Catholic.

  As an aside, I think that Christians should be on common ground when it comes to facing a true threat, secular progressive attempts to get rid of religion in the public sphere altogether.  :knight2:

We are all responsible to ourselves!

If we do not seek to find the truth than we are left to what is.

For some, strength lies in a structured atmosphere, while others build on their inner strengths through trials and tribulations as in Romans 5.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[two1176]

We are all responsible to ourselves!

If we do not seek to find the truth than we are left to what is.

For some, strength lies in a structured atmosphere, while others build on their inner strengths through trials and tribulations as in Romans 5.

Peace>>>AJ

We are finite and fallible and what we choose may or may not be correct. A good feeling in our gut does not necessarily mean we are on the right path. We Americans love to go our own way without anyone telling us what to do or how to do it. People often carry this notion over into the religious sector. It is a shame when people try to determine eternal truth by their feelings or by popular opinion. Jesus did say, " I am the way" not "I am one of the ways". God Bless. :)

 

[Radical]

THe actual teachings you say. Do you mean the Bible, you know the one the Catholic Church put together.

Yep, the Bible, the compilation of writings that God used mere men (from within the church) to put together…but not the Bible of the RCC as it contains a few books that I don’t recognize as scripture.

The one the apostles(mere men) wrote.

Inspired mere men wrote it, and of course, most of those inspired writers were not apostles.

Because last I checked Jesus never wrote anything himself….

apart from the time it is said that he wrote on the ground, right?

…so unless you were there like the apostles and early church fathers how can this be? If we dont have mere men to rely on what do you have?

I have God himself. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory. The Holy Spirit is my guarantee of salvation and not the church (and not the RCC or any other denomination). The Holy Spirit ensured that the scriptures contain the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.

Thats the beauty of the Church its all filtered in some way through mere men, except these men I wouldnt say were mere. They were as devote as they come.

unless they were also inspired in what they did, mere men are always prone to error. In your first post on this thread you claimed you were both devote and in the wrong place.

So really what you have is your own understanding….

we all rely on our own understanding. You trust your own understanding that the RCC is the true church.

…and my friend its dangerous to lean on it.

as all rely on their own understanding (those called popes included) the real danger is not relying on that understanding, but relying on it with the attitude that one’s understanding is infallible. Now I see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; only later shall I see face to face.

The Pillar is the church and the Pillar is what holds up the Bible, not the other way around. Be careful not to put the cart in front of the horse (Im sorry another bad analogy… )

I take it that your are referring to 1 Tim 3:15 where the ekklesia/assembly of believers is said to be the pillar and ground of the truth. No doubt you know that Jesus is THE truth, he is the cornerstone of the ekklesia and the head of the ekklesia. It all rests completely on Christ. The ekklesia is the pillar and foundation of the truth b/c the ekklesia presents Christ to the world (as opposed to holding itself out to the world).

Since you brought up 1 Tim 3 and your conversion story I will share one of the reasons why I would not convert to Roman Catholicism. At the start of 1 Tim 3 Paul sets out the requirements for one to be an overseer of the church. Various bishops of Rome (particularly prior to the reformation) did not come anywhere near to meeting those requirements. A good number were downright terrible. St Francis is credited with saying, “Always proclaim the gospel. If necessary, use words.” I agree with Francis that actions proclaim and teach. By appointing downright terrible popes contrary to the provisions of 1 Tim 3 the church of Rome taught/proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands. By not removing such popes the church of Rome taught/proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands. Those sorts of things have convinced me that the RCC is not the one true church and I would not join it, b/c to do so would be an endorsement of that claim.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Amen AJ, Amen.

The beauty of boards, like this, is they provide a forum where we can/should discuss theology and doctrine in love, with patience and for fellowship. I’ve learned some things on this board - and I hope my posts have been helpful to others.

No one on this board is likely to “convert” anyone - only God can do that. So we should stress our common bond in Christ (he who is not against us, is for us - someone magnificient and wonderful said words to that effect.

Blessings,

Brian

**
Hi Brian,

Nice sentiment buddy. You are a real believer.:clapping: But allow me say a few things, if you don’t mind. I am busy working on a reply to Non-catholic’s post but felt drawn to reply to your’s first. You said: **
" So we should stress our common bond in Christ (he who is not against us, is for us - someone magnificient and wonderful said words to that effect.

**
You do realize that all 61,000 Protestant groups ARE against the Catholic church don’t you? I would agree that many of the good people may not be. Heaven knows there are a lot of God loving people in those false churches that realize, as we do that all people, are children of God. But they are feed false beliefs and lies. All their churches teach against the Catholic church. We do not teach against their false, counterfeit, corrupted, distorted beliefs and that is a “disservice” to them. Protestants deserve salvation just like members of the real church.How are they going to achieve it with out learning the truth?

Yes, we are Family, but some members are indanger of dying an eternal death!

Brian, Didn’t that same magnificient and wonderful person also said:

ONE: “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” John 5:39-40

TWO: " But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe" John 6:36

THREE: “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.” John 6:53-55

So Brian, lets pray for their conversion as you also said only God can convert people. We should pray for all Protestant’s salvation. If we can get the claws of Satan from the true believers they will also have the opportinity for eternal fellowship with Jesus, His Mother and all the Saints in Heaven.

**

two1176:

We are first brothers and sister in Christ, then, if the proper Godly attitude is present, our differing beliefs are made as one, for God is one, and His spirit is one. Let us therefore encourage one another and not discourage one another due to theological difference.

AND

I know plenty of good protestants so I do not condemn them

**
Hi Two,

There is only one way to Christ, Through the Catholic church established by Jesus 2,000 years ago. The theological differences you cavalierly mention are what will condemn the non-believers don’t you realize that?

By your acceptance of where they are, you are condeming them if you don’t help them find the true way to worship Jesus!

God Bless**

 

[look3467]

We are finite and fallible and what we choose may or may not be correct. A good feeling in our gut does not necessarily mean we are on the right path. We Americans love to go our own way without anyone telling us what to do or how to do it. People often carry this notion over into the religious sector. It is a shame when people try to determine eternal truth by their feelings or by popular opinion. Jesus did say, " I am the way" not “I am one of the ways”. God Bless.

Knowledge is processed in the brain but does have a spirit about it.
That spirit, being you is active in the things of God to discern right from wrong.

Knowledge of God is via the spirit, and there is where we receive communion with Him.

There is no material vehicle by which God can communicate to us with save our spirits.

The church, is a vehicle that helps us learn about God, but ultimately, it is our spirits that commune with God.

From that point is the new man, the new creature born from the dead.

Are we born from the dead yet?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Yep, the Bible, the compilation of writings that God used mere men (from within the church) to put together…but not the Bible of the RCC as it contains a few books that I don’t recognize as scripture.**But the one you do recognized were ALL approved by the RCC :whacky: **

** we all rely on our own understanding. You trust your own understanding that the RCC is the true church. We relly on the understanding of Jesus church, not our own beliefs. We don’t interpret the bible! Jesus does through His church**

as all rely on their own understanding (those called popes included) the real danger is not relying on that understanding, but relying on it with the attitude that one’s understanding is infallible.

The church’s understanding is Infalliable, The Pope’s isn’t, He is only human! Now I see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; only later shall I see face to face.

and you live in the shadow of that reflection
. St Francis is credited with saying, “Always proclaim the gospel. If necessary, use words.” I agree with Francis that actions proclaim and teach. By appointing downright terrible popes contrary to the provisions of 1 Tim 3 the church of Rome taught/proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands. By not removing such popes the church of Rome taught/proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands. Those sorts of things have convinced me that the RCC is not the one true church and I would not join it, b/c to do so would be an endorsement of that claim.

**Hi Radical,
It is 78F here today! Sorry I had to mention it!
St Fancis is one of my hero’s I love that quote. That is what we must do show people what it is to be a real christian by our actions not by reading a book and proclaiming it is Gods only truth:thumbsup:

The church of Rome never taught or proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands.That is a Protestant lie! It is indorced by the devil to keep people away from Jesus real church The church of Rome could not ignore scripture it was and is the author of scripture. It interprets Scripture unlike protests that constantly rewrite it! Protestant heresies have only bee around less than 500 years and are completely corrupt any useless for salvation alone. The RCC must help or the people could be lost. Those sorts of things have convinced me that only the RCC is the true church of Jesus and I would not leave it, b/c like the Apostles I would have no where to go! **

 

[two1176]

RealCatholicgk, you are mistaken in that you took someone’s else’s comments for mine. If you read the last couple of comments I have made you can see I am in agreement with you.

 

[BMSODM]

Yep, the Bible, the compilation of writings that God used mere men (from within the church) to put together…but not the Bible of the RCC as it contains a few books that I don’t recognize as scripture.

**Which books of the Old Testament did the Apostles accept as Scripture? Did they accept the 46 books as in the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible or the 39 books as in the King James version? The Septuagint was accepted among the Hellenistic sect of Judaism (of which St. Paul was a member) and this canon did indeed include the same Old Testament books as the present-day Catholic Bible. In addition, the entire New Testament was written in Greek (Hellenist) with the exception of the Gospel of St. Matthew, which was written in Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ). Over 85% of the quotes from the Old Testament that are used in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. The Palestinian Old Testament canon was not compiled until between 70-90 A.D. and then, it was done so by the non-Christian Jews in violent reaction to early Judeo-Christianity. The Palestinian canon was the one chosen by Martin Luther based on the acceptance of it by the 16th century German-Jewish community of Luther’s time. This canon excludes the seven books that were accepted by the Apostles as Scripture. Why was the canon of the Protestant Old Testament decided by Jews and not Christians? In addition, why did Luther attempt to eliminate the Book of St. James and the Book of Revelation? Is it because the first contradicted his dogma of “faith alone” as opposed to grace, faith and works “combined?” And the second book proving the Catholic Church’s stance on nothing “impure” entering into Heaven therefore “necessitating” purgation ?
**

The Holy Spirit is my guarantee of salvation and not the church (and not the RCC or any other denomination). The Holy Spirit ensured that the scriptures contain the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.

[BWhat did Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, state about the Bible? In his “Commentary On St. John,” he stated the following: “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we have received It from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of It at all.” Regardless of what non-Catholic Christians may think or say, according to secular, objective historians, the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture throughout the persecution of the Roman Empire and during the Dark Ages. All non-Catholic Christian denominations owe the existence of the Bible to the Catholic Church alone. Why did God choose the Catholic Church to preserve Scripture if It is not His Church?

Humm, I wonder why if there is only one Truth that there are so many different doctrines, because as far as I know every denomination claims to have the Holy Spirit…]

.

 

[BMSODM]

Since you brought up 1 Tim 3 and your conversion story I will share one of the reasons why I would not convert to Roman Catholicism. At the start of 1 Tim 3 Paul sets out the requirements for one to be an overseer of the church. Various bishops of Rome (particularly prior to the reformation) did not come anywhere near to meeting those requirements. A good number were downright terrible. St Francis is credited with saying, “Always proclaim the gospel. If necessary, use words.” I agree with Francis that actions proclaim and teach. By appointing downright terrible popes contrary to the provisions of 1 Tim 3 the church of Rome taught/proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands. By not removing such popes the church of Rome taught/proclaimed that it could ignore scripture/God’s commands. Those sorts of things have convinced me that the RCC is not the one true church and I would not join it, b/c to do so would be an endorsement of that claim.

**Is the Bible the “pillar of truth” in the Christian religion? No. According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the “pillar of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible. Some “Bible” Christians insist that a “pillar” (the Church) was created to “hold up” another structure (the Bible). They claim the Bible is the structure being held up according to this passage. Well, if that is the case, how did the early Church “hold up” the Bible for the first three to four hundred years when the Bible Itself didn’t even exist? Also, even if the Church is only a “pillar” holding up the Bible, doesn’t that mean that the Church is the interpreter of Scripture rather than the individual?

How can you quote St. Francis? What does it matter what he says? After all he is just another catholic that has been misled.
I mean so what, after all he only had the stigmata of the Lord. I dont see how he can be an example for you to follow. He preached everything catholic from the Blessed Mother to the Eucharist and the Passion of the Lords death. He preached it so much that he had the wounds of Christ in his hands and feet and head. I mean who cares about all the miracles he did, that dont prove nothing right? Who cares about all the healings that proves nothing right? I got news St. Francis followed those popes you so openly reject…**

 

[NonCatholic]

If there is a sacrifice and a victim, then is there a death? If so, of whom…Jesus?

Yes. You may recall it. It occurred on Calvary, a little less than 2000 years ago.

That Sacrifice. That Victim. That death. Re-presented, made present to us, as time and eternity meet.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

You do realize that logically and mathematically, that a recreation or maybe exact replica means more than one sacrifice, victim and death? Only the replica is never as good as the original. You can’t (well you can) say that it is the same exact one… there is neither blood nor cross, nor Roman soldiers, nor nails, nor thieves.

Thanks for answering the question; I thought I understood that the implication was a death, but wanted to make sure I had the RC teaching correct.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Hi Non, **

You do realize that logically and mathematically, that a recreation or maybe exact replica means more than one sacrifice, victim and death? Only the replica is never as good as the original.
**
Non, why do you attempt to limit God’s ability to do what He desires? There is no recreation nor exact replica. There was the one timeless sacrafice offered by Jesus for our sins. You do realize that logically ** God can do what He wants without your understanding don’t you? It is call a mystery for a good rreason. We can’t understand How God does it We are assured that He does. He wants to allow His followers to be at the foot of the cross as He dies for our sins. It is His right is it? This is no Hollywood production At every Mass we go back and join Jesus at the last supper and at Calvery as he attones for Our sins. He paid a price that He didn’t own, because we owen a price we couldn’t pay. He said in scripture that He would do that and demanded that we eaoh be able

You can’t (well you can) say that it is the same exact one… there is neither blood nor cross, nor Roman soldiers, nor nails, nor thieves.

** Yes we can because it is! There is Our Lord’s Body and Blood! There is the Holy sacrafice of the Mass. There is the mystery of our redemption. But, I guess, being Protestant you might not understand! ****

And mathematically it can be proved: Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, gave His real followers one church and left the HS to guide them - Good people, without God’s authority attempted to overthrow Jesus’ church and in the process got themselves controled by the Devil. They corrupted the real bible and distorted Jesus teachings and left to multiply and divide over and over again. So, 1 church 2,000 years old plus 61,000 counterfeit groups claiming to be part of that church.(which of course equal Zero) makes ON E TRUE CHURCH! **

Thanks for answering the question; I thought I understood that the implication was a death, but wanted to make sure I had the RC teaching correct.

**Not a problem! Our pleasure! Don’t Protestants teach Jesus died also? at least most of the 61,000 should It is hard to know with 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas to choose from. It could take years and to rersearch and by then there will be over 100,000 groups at least. II am so glad the catholic church has remained firm in our vbeliefs for 2,000 years. It is so much easier followign the true church!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

RealCatholicgk, you are mistaken in that you took someone’s else’s comments for mine. If you read the last couple of comments I have made you can see I am in agreement with you.

**
Hi two,

But two, Post # 206 was from you. I wasn’t against you just correcting what you had said. We owe it to our brothers to help they break away from Satan and his corrupted versions of the real church.

God Bless **

 

[look3467]

Protestants deserve salvation just like members of the real church.How are they going to achieve it with out learning the truth? >>>Realcatholicgk

Realcatholicgk, your zeal for the Catholic Church is admirable.

My point of view however, reflects the works of God in the salvation of mankind.
While yours reflects salvation of mankind by the Catholic church.

[Introduction]
The works of God are: Creation of the flesh (Adam+Eve)

[Fall]
The giving of intelligence and introduction of knowledge.

[Judgment]
After the fall.

[Death]
After judgment:

These four are Gods center piece in the whole bible.

Jesus, again uses the same center piece to recreate a new kingdom.

If one breaks the day Jesus was crucified into 4 quarters of a day, one can see those four things.

Jesus delivered mankind’s soul in one day, thus that one day encompasses the whole of the 7-day first creation to one 24 hour day.

If we can see it, we will realize that salvation is all Gods work and our works have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.

I can see where God gave us His word in print via human writers, but inspired to give us the necessary knowledge to receive so great a work of salvation.

It was all in His design: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

…“was made subject to vanity” first creation
…“who hath subjected [the same] in hope”…second creation

We can see Gods complete works in His first creation and in the second as well.

I said all that to point out that salvation is universal.

That’s what Jesus wanted us to understand when He said: Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Did not Jesus forgive His persecutors? Why?
Is it because He loved them?

If the answer to that is Yes, then His enemies and ours are precious in His site to.

That must also mean that salvation for mankind is purchased, by God, paid for and given to us as a free gift.

Does that not make us all brothers and sisters in Christ?

Hence: love one another, love our enemies:

Differing religious beliefs have nothing to do with salvation, but it does direct us to God.

If then,the heart of mankind is not changed, then God can not use us as instruments for good.

That is why I present the love of God as non divisional, but as a unifying love that has no borders.

I have no problem with any belief, only when that persons belief harbors hate.

That needs an attitude adjustment that only th love of God in us can make a difference.

Peace>>>AJ