B
BMSODM
Guest
Still waiting for your reply brother…
Dont forget about me, because I havent forgotten about you…
Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?
- Status
Dont forget about me, because I havent forgotten about you…
P
Protestant101
Guest
While you are waiting, why don’t you attempt an answer to this question about the following quote from your post above:Still waiting for your reply brother…
Dont forget about me, because I havent forgotten about you…
**
Where could this be found and proven in official Catholic writings?**
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Hi Protestant,
That quote was from me, not BM’s. I told you many months ago, I would never lie to you. That has always been the Catholic church’s “official” standing. There are many Bulls declairing that fact. The most famous In Coena Domini was a recurrent papal bull between 1363 and 1770, so called from its opening words (Latin “At the table of the Lord”, referring to the liturgical feast on which it was annually published in Rome: the feast of the Lord’s Supper), formerly issued annually on Holy Thursday, and later on Easter Monday. It was first published in 1363 under Pope Urban V. It was a statement of ecclesiastical censure against heresies, schisms, sacrilege, infringement of papal and ecclesiastical privileges, attacks on person and property, piracy, forgery and other crimes. For two or three hundred years it was varied from time to time, receiving its final form from Pope Urban VIII in 1627. Its publication was discontinued by Pope Clement XIV in 1770. Never has the church said that Protestants can be saved on their own. It just isn’t thought possible because of the distortion and corruption of Jesus’ teachings lead by the Devil. Even as recent as July 10, 2007 the Vatican once again proclaiming that the Catholic Church is the only true church restated it again. On that date the Vatican issued a document restating its belief that the Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. The 16-page document was prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a doctrinal watchdog that Pope Benedict used to head. Formulated as five questions and answers. Look it up, the document is titled “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church.”
It states that although Orthodox churches are true churches, they are “defective” because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope. “It follows that these separated churches and communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation,” it said. The document adds that Protestant denominations — called Christian Communities born out of the Reformation — are not true churches, but ecclesial communities." These ecclesial communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood … cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense," it said.
I like to call them all “counterfeit” to show their true status!
This document is similar to one written in 2000 by Our current Pope — who was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at the time — that sparked an angry reaction from Protestant groups. “I suspect there will be some reactions that are rather passionate,” said Raphaela Schmid, director of the Becket Institute, a group that advocates religious freedom. “I hope they will not be angry because we all try to understand about each other.” The document is issued by Benedict’s successor in doctrinal matters, Cardinal William Levada, and endorsed by the Pope, said Reuters.
The Teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church considers Protestants to be the “separated brethren” (Catechism, pp. 216, 226, sects. 817, 855) because of the foundational view that it is the Catholic Church which is the church that Jesus established, and not the Protestant denominations (including the “non-denominational” denominations). The Protestant Reformation is seen as merely a schismatic movement which created disunity in Christ’s church (the Catholic Church). In fact, at the time, the Catholic Church declared Martin Luther and John Calvin as heretics: Luther for dividing the church, and Calvin for his “heretical” views of sin and the total depravity of man. (Catechism, p. 103, sect. 406)
The Teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church therefore teaches that, as a consequence of this schism, Protestants are missing out on the many blessings that can only come only from active membership and participation in the Catholic Church, especially the sacraments.
In addition, they do not have the Teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church to guide them in properly interpreting the Bible, and to provide trustworthy guidance in discerning the truths of the faith, therefore they do not understand how to reach salvation.
Many of us Catholics are strongly committed to helping our Protestant brothers and sisters convert so they can come into the fullness and unity of the true expression of the Christian faith, which is the Catholic Church and obtain the salvation that Jesus earned for them by His death. His gift is available, Protestants must just accept it from His church.
I sincerely hope that answers your question Protestant101, so now answer BMSODM he is waiting. Tick…tock…tick…tock…
God Bless**
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Hi Hugh,
Well, Hugh, Only God can Judge! Probably is accurate and as definite as I could ever be. We do know what Jesus said:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt. 7 21-23
“Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” 2Co. 13 5
Jesus is speaking specifically to people who are devotedly religious - but who are deluded in thinking they are on the road to heaven when they are really on the broad road to hell. They are not unlike those in the last days who Paul says will hold a form of godliness but will deny its power! 2 Tim. 3:5. Jesus is confronting the Pharisees with self-deception. They claimed such religious tradition yet Jesus knew they were far from the Kingdom.
"Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 1 Corinthians 11: 27-29
See? Even Catholics who take true communion and are sinful or do not believe in the real presence are warned of their fate.
Self deception leads Protestants and others to believe in a false assurance for salvation. “Lord, Lord”… Matt. 7 21. They have experienced conviction without real conversion. The Rich young ruler asked the right question. He thought he was righteous because he claimed to have kept the commandments. Yet when Jesus told him to sell what he had and give to the poor it became obvious that he had not kept the first commandment - Thou shalt have no others gods before me. He was convicted and went away sorrowfully.
Sinners often are sorrowful but not repentant. “For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow. But
worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death.” 2 Co. 7-1
"For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Rom. 8 13-16
Self-deception is often the result of pride. “Look what we did in your name…” Jer. 49 16 states that the pride of our heart deceives us. Pride distorts truth with self justification. We excuse our sin and compromise the justice and holiness of God by assuming that the love of God overlooks our sin.
Through a faulty and presumptuous view of God’s grace,
some professed believers carelessly go through life oblivious
to and unconcerned about their sins. They say to themselves that God understands.
He doesn’t.
Protestants entire belief system is only a imitation representation of the real church. With distorted and corrupted teachings that may cause eternal damnation.
Why? because Jesus’ words expressly states and He commanded us to “Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood” multiple times in John 6 after one of the miracles when He multiplied the Loaves and Fishes to show us that it is also by a miracle that He can give us His real Body & Blood. Towards the end of the chapter many of Jesus’ own disciples (not the 12) left Him on this one issue. How can anyone truly call themselves a Christian who does not partake in the Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood?
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Pro. 14 2
God Bless**
B
BMSODM
Guest
Yep Tick Toc, Im waiting…
As much as most of us hate to admit it, RealCatholic is telling you exactly what the True Church teachings are…We as modern day Catholic’s are being misled from our own foundation. The Vatican II
being led by man not the Holy Spirit. But we must remember God is merciful and will look to the heart more often then not.
"Always remember, call Me, My children. I am your Mother, your Mother of peace, your Mother of grace. I am always your Mother, now and in the hereafter. When you come across the veil, My children, you will fully understand how your works of mercy and caring have brought you across the veil to Heaven." - Our Lady, June 18, 1988
There are many who will not be given the chance or have the Truth presented to them, but that doesn’t mean all will be cast away.
Look what our Mother says…
BEATIFIC VISION
“In the realms of Heaven there are many stages to reach perfection. The highest place in Heaven, My children, is the beatific vision of the Eternal Father. I mention this in fact to you, My children, because there is a prevalence of much error now in your world teachings.” - Our Lady, September 28, 1976
MANY ROOMS
“Do not judge your brothers and sisters who have not been converted… My Son has repeated over and over: remember always that My Father’s House there are many rooms in the Mansion, signifying faiths and creeds. However, the Eternal Father, the beatific vision, is reserved for the Roman Catholic following. This it has been deemed by the Eternal Father since the beginning of time.” - Our Lady, August 14, 1979
If you want to see the fullness of God the Father then you have to convert to the True Church. That is the only way you can make it to the upper room…But don’t think just because your catholic your safe. You must be an obedient catholic, one who gives his whole heart, mind, and soul to God and God alone. And if you do this God will give you the love to be able to Love your neighbor as yourself…
**ONE TRUE CHURCH
“My child and My children, you are all My children. I judge you not by color or race, and I do not judge you by your creed; however, should the knowledge of the One True Church be given to you, and the way to Heaven along the narrow road be given to you, you will follow it or you will be rejected.” - Our Lady, August 21, 1985 **
As much as most of us hate to admit it, RealCatholic is telling you exactly what the True Church teachings are…We as modern day Catholic’s are being misled from our own foundation. The Vatican II
being led by man not the Holy Spirit. But we must remember God is merciful and will look to the heart more often then not.
"Always remember, call Me, My children. I am your Mother, your Mother of peace, your Mother of grace. I am always your Mother, now and in the hereafter. When you come across the veil, My children, you will fully understand how your works of mercy and caring have brought you across the veil to Heaven." - Our Lady, June 18, 1988
There are many who will not be given the chance or have the Truth presented to them, but that doesn’t mean all will be cast away.
Look what our Mother says…
BEATIFIC VISION
“In the realms of Heaven there are many stages to reach perfection. The highest place in Heaven, My children, is the beatific vision of the Eternal Father. I mention this in fact to you, My children, because there is a prevalence of much error now in your world teachings.” - Our Lady, September 28, 1976
MANY ROOMS
“Do not judge your brothers and sisters who have not been converted… My Son has repeated over and over: remember always that My Father’s House there are many rooms in the Mansion, signifying faiths and creeds. However, the Eternal Father, the beatific vision, is reserved for the Roman Catholic following. This it has been deemed by the Eternal Father since the beginning of time.” - Our Lady, August 14, 1979
If you want to see the fullness of God the Father then you have to convert to the True Church. That is the only way you can make it to the upper room…But don’t think just because your catholic your safe. You must be an obedient catholic, one who gives his whole heart, mind, and soul to God and God alone. And if you do this God will give you the love to be able to Love your neighbor as yourself…
**ONE TRUE CHURCH
“My child and My children, you are all My children. I judge you not by color or race, and I do not judge you by your creed; however, should the knowledge of the One True Church be given to you, and the way to Heaven along the narrow road be given to you, you will follow it or you will be rejected.” - Our Lady, August 21, 1985 **
P
Protestant101
Guest
Yes, I think he is telling me what your Church’s teachings are on this question about not being saved unless you are Catholic. I appreciate some of the references given. But I will say the whole viewpoint of Catholics as expressed on this topic is a lot of hot air and hub-bub.Yep Tick Toc, Im waiting…
As much as most of us hate to admit it, RealCatholic is telling you exactly what the True Church teachings are…We as modern day Catholic’s are being misled from our own foundation.
If you want to see the fullness of God the Father then you have to convert to the True Church.
What is it you think you are waiting for?
B
BMSODM
Guest
I will cut and paste it again…
"Here is a link that will give you some proof that the Eucharist is The Body and Blood. But then again all the proof in the world does no one any good if they don’t have faith…"http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu116.htm
What do you do with the evidence presented?
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
Jn 6:35-71 - Eucharist promised
Mt 26:26ff (Mk 14:22ff., Lk 22:17ff.) - Eucharist instituted
1Cor 10:16 - Eucharist = participation in Christ’s body & blood
1 Cor 11:23-29 - receiving unworthily his body & blood
Ex 12:8, 46 - Paschal lamb had to be eaten
Jn 1:29 - Jesus called “Lamb of God”
1 Cor 5:7 - Jesus called "paschal lamb who has been sacrificed
Jn 4:31-34; Mt 16;5-12 - Jesus talking symbolically about food
1Cor 2:14-3:4 - explains what “the flesh” means in Jn 6:63
Ps 14:4; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Mic 3:3; 2Sm 23:15-17; Rv 17:6, 16 -
to symbolically eat & drink one’s body & blood = assault
G
GKC
Guest
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Hi BM,
Yep the clock keeps ticking …Tick Toc, we all wait, Warning do not hold your breath. One gut on another thread is waiting months with no reply from you know who!
Whwn I was a kid, we were told that non-catholics were going to Hell. I knew it couldn’t be so. The God that I worship couldn’t be that mean. I stil believe that He isn’t. However, Myself as an adult can see that the 61,000 groups can’t all be following Jesus’ true teachings when they don’t follow the original church’s teaching.
It seem arrogant and very judgmental to say thet Protestants aren’t necessarly saved but I can read it in the scriptures and see it in their actions. Also many Catholics are not saved but they don’t follow the CCs teachings. Many Protestants are more Catholic than many Cathoolics and don’t realize it. They mistakenly think we teach things such as we must pray to Mary and the Saints to be saved. They believe so many things that are just traditions that we practice are savation requirements. Even many Catholics may think they are also “requirements” for salvation rather than our expression of our faith. I have also wondered that if they do, does that make their salvation requirements more than God requires. Kind of like a self-imposed tax?
Anyway, We have to pray for the conversion of all sinners and a answer from Protestant101. Which will come first? Tick…Tock…Tick…Tock!
God Bless**
B
BMSODM
Guest
RealC***
I hope and pray protestant101 will look at the evidence without any bias veiw and let it present itself for what it is. I dont see how anyone can reject the hundreds of cases of real proof that Jesus is in the Eucharist. Even science cant disprove these miracles…
The biggest problem or deception in the teachings of these other denominations is that Jesus covered every sin we had and will ever have. He provided a key to entering the Kingdom but one must be willing not only to accept that key but wear the key as well. And one wears the key by abiding in Him and to abide in Him means to not only accept His teachings but obey the teachings themselves. The only way to know what the True teachings are is to look to the Church He instituded through the Apostles, the First Pope and the First Bishop’s. That is who holds the Key…These others are using a duplicate key and some are even using a credit card to gimmy the lock…
Look at what Jesus says about False Security…(OSAS)
**“You have a false security that all is forgiven. But is this not sheer insanity in sin to believe that you may offend your God and break His rules and enter? What manner of life would there be in your Kingdom of Heaven? All will enter by merit! Many shall enter through suffering and atonement and penance!” **- Jesus, February 10, 1976
I thank God that we are givin the grace to suffer and given the grace to atone for our sins as well as intercede for others. But most of all I thank God for purgatory, for this is a great grace otherwise almost all would perish. And it absoluety foolishness that protestants reject purgatory because there in the most need of it because they are rejecting to wear the key by rejecting the True Church…
I hope and pray protestant101 will look at the evidence without any bias veiw and let it present itself for what it is. I dont see how anyone can reject the hundreds of cases of real proof that Jesus is in the Eucharist. Even science cant disprove these miracles…
The biggest problem or deception in the teachings of these other denominations is that Jesus covered every sin we had and will ever have. He provided a key to entering the Kingdom but one must be willing not only to accept that key but wear the key as well. And one wears the key by abiding in Him and to abide in Him means to not only accept His teachings but obey the teachings themselves. The only way to know what the True teachings are is to look to the Church He instituded through the Apostles, the First Pope and the First Bishop’s. That is who holds the Key…These others are using a duplicate key and some are even using a credit card to gimmy the lock…
Look at what Jesus says about False Security…(OSAS)
**“You have a false security that all is forgiven. But is this not sheer insanity in sin to believe that you may offend your God and break His rules and enter? What manner of life would there be in your Kingdom of Heaven? All will enter by merit! Many shall enter through suffering and atonement and penance!” **- Jesus, February 10, 1976
I thank God that we are givin the grace to suffer and given the grace to atone for our sins as well as intercede for others. But most of all I thank God for purgatory, for this is a great grace otherwise almost all would perish. And it absoluety foolishness that protestants reject purgatory because there in the most need of it because they are rejecting to wear the key by rejecting the True Church…
P
Protestant101
Guest
The “miracles” you cite are not proof of anything. Almost every false religion and apostate church has “miracles” and “testimonies” by which they deceive the world, and get people off of God’s Word. Those “miracles” sound more like witchcraft and superstition to me. I don’t know if this is what you have been waiting for or not. Only time will tell…Tic tock tic tock tic tock…
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
I WAS JUST ASKING WHAT PART OF OUR LORDS DO YOU NOT BELIVE—"So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me,
B
BMSODM
Guest
You have rejected much proof in the text of the Holy Scriptures. You have rejected the very words of your Lord. I love you so I can say this with Love, you fool. Your pride has hindered the Holy Spirit from revealing the Truth…
Did not the staff of Moses turn into a serpent in the will of God? Did not the river in Egypt turn into blood in the will of God? And cannot God, in His will, come to you changing the bread and wine into the actual Presence, the real Presence, the factual Presence of His Body and Blood?
Jesus can turn water into wine but He can’t turn wine into Blood.
**“Your children are wandering. . . . their souls will be destroyed when they are not given the Bread of living life. This Bread will only be obtained in the sanctified House of My Son. Satan seeks to remove the Tabernacle from among you.” **- Our Lady, August 5, 1973
Cant you see the fruit of beleiving the Bread of Life is only symbolic? Its making the Body divide, the sheep are wandering into different pasters. There leaving the protection of the Good Shepard. Dont be a fool and think you can survive on your own because when you reject the Body and Blood you are leaving the paster…You are leaning on your own understanding…
**“I am the living bread which comes down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world” **- John 6: 51-52
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Protestant101
Guest
Jesus gave His blood on Calvary, “once for all;” (Heb.10:10) and it is blasphemy to try to perpetually reapply it by the supposed virtues of a human priest. Joh 6:51 is clearly symbolic. Jesus never once intended for Christians to literally eat His literal flesh for this is not how He gave His literal body to the world, for eternal life, as in Jo.6:51. Jesus gave His body on Calvary, not literally in a piece of bread, but literally on Calvary. The only context in which Christ gives His body to the world is on the cross of Calvary.
**
Our Lady, August 5, 1973**
This kind of quote, used as supposed “evidence” , 1st of all is not scriptural, and 2nd, can only come from a source which has gone completely apostate, and adopted the tenets of spiritualism to the fullest point where they actually believe that evil spirits, masquerading as “good” ones, are saints who are in reality dead and “know nothing.” (Eccl.9:5)
Jesus distinguishes Himself in vs. 6:50 as “the Living Bread that came down from heaven;” and he further states how that only by “eating” this Bread, we “shall live forever.” This “Living Bread” is not like the unleavened bread made by human hands. People still die after eating that bread!!
Jesus also said: “I am The Vine, Ye Are The Branches (Jo.15:5). Just like Jesus here is not a literal vine; neither is He literal Bread, when He says: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Joh 6:51. The only context in which Christ gives His body to the world is on the cross. (Jo.3:16, Heb.10). The Bible is clear: Heb 10:12: But this man, [meaning Jesus] after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever…"
One needs to consider how our Lord said that “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Luke 4:4
The life of Christ that gives life to the world is in His word. It was by His word that Jesus healed disease and cast out demons; by His word He stilled the sea, and raised the dead; and the people bore witness that His word was with power. He spoke the word of God, as He had spoken through all the prophets and teachers of the Old Testament. The whole Bible is a manifestation of Christ, and the Saviour desired to fix the faith of His followers on the word. When His visible presence should be withdrawn, the word must be their source of power. Like their Master, they were to live “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Matt. 4:4.
As our physical life is sustained by food, so our spiritual life is sustained by the word of God. And every soul is to receive life from God’s word for himself. As we must eat for ourselves in order to receive nourishment, so we must receive the word for ourselves. We are not to obtain it merely through the medium of another’s mind. We should carefully study the Bible, asking God for the aid of the Holy Spirit, that we may understand His word. We should take one verse, and concentrate the mind on the task of ascertaining the thought which God has put in that verse for us. We should dwell upon the thought until it becomes our own, and we know "what saith the Lord.
P
Protestant101
Guest
Catholics say: what does this verse say all by itself; while Christians say, what does the rest of the Bible have to say about it too? You have left quite a bit out by trying to limit God in quoting only this verse as the “full story.” You talk about having “the fullness of truth;” so where is it?
P
Protestant101
Guest
Before the current Pope was Pope, he was known as a hardliner; and in this he has not changed, despite some of his lofty sentiments. This alone proves that the so called unity he is duping the world with is really about submission to the Catholic Pope. Period.Hi Protestant,
Never has the church said that Protestants can be saved on their own. It just isn’t thought possible because of the distortion and corruption of Jesus’ teachings lead by the Devil. Even as recent as July 10, 2007 the Vatican once again proclaiming that the Catholic Church is the only true church restated it again. On that date the Vatican issued a document restating its belief that the Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. The 16-page document was prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a doctrinal watchdog that Pope Benedict used to head.
P
pneuma07
Guest
Dear Radical,
Code:
fine. I could tell: the whole of them. I mean isn’t His whole life a suitable preparation ? Would He not perform visible, touchable miracles as signs , in order to let us believe what He performs outside the realm of our senses ?Or I could cite one miracle in particular: Incarnation. They came to believe that man was……God. Didn’t they ? Now, what would they see, when looking at that man ? A man. Our physical eyes cannot “see God” . Even Thomas, when he was rebuked after confessing Jesus’ divinity, had seen plagues, a sign pointing to His divinity, certainly not divinity itself. Yet the Lord told him ( and us, I suppose) blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
If you and me follow a religion founded by Him who supposedly made such a statement. If you and me have come to accept this man (although it is impossible “seeing”, “touching” Incarnation) as God. (Am I right we did accept that ? Nothing less !) Then I really cannot grasp this necessity to brand as unacceptable or even folly, the possibility that this God-man did give us His flesh by giving us the consecrated bread.
I have described what I believe would be the natural response in two different realms. In the realm of the rational (the one that the apostles would have typically employed when attempting to understand a statement) the apostles would not just reference what they hear, but also reference what they saw and tasted in determining how to understand and make sense of the Lord’s words (figuratively vs. literally). Literal would be unthinkable given what they could observe. On the other hand, in the realm of the emotional, a RP view would be comforting and empowering in that it would lead the adherent to believe that he enjoyed a greater connection to God and benefited from the miraculous. (note the disciples already enjoyed the ability to interact directly to Jesus and to witness his miracles…they didn’t need to resort to an RP to gain those benefits).*
This distinction you’re building here has not to work between the Twelve and all the others. It is a distinction whose boundaries are to be understood. If we say the evangelists did not add any incidental non realist comment b/c people from different cultural backgrounds did not need them and it was sure they would understand the sentences in merely symbolic way, then we a have a somewhat odder situation.
I mean : realism in this view must have been unthinkable for the whole first generation ( or generations).
Then somewhere somehow a momentous shift took place, and RP started being “comforting and empowering”. IMHO the theory is becoming growingly complicate if we have to explain that within the flock, during say the III century or whenever, rationality was step by step substituted by emotions ( we’d suppose believers in any time had both of them to assess the message). Within any of the cultural environments of those centuries the unthinkable would become attractive.
Further the bishops could then add that the Eucharist was essential for salvation and that only they could provide a valid Eucharist…and that was a powerful tool that could be used to control the faithful.
If we consider that
“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, … Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.”
Are the very words of that Ignatius in that letter to Smyrneans you proposed to analyse in the first place, IMHO we can have a further complication here.
Because that is then a teaching of the very sub-apostolic Church . No product of late ancient corruption or deceitful Church. If you accept the authenticity of Ignatius’ letters, than rejecting the Episcopal function and this particular aspect within it does not seem so easy.
You propose Ignatius as supposed witness of the supposed original nature of NRP. Now, you are not imagining likely then this first post-apostolic generation leader ( even supposed to be writing these words on the road to martyrdom) was deceiving believers to gain for himself and his successors “a powerful tool that could be used to control the faithful”.
Isn’t there something much more profound in Ignatius’ “No bishop no Eucharist” ?
Moreover, if we assume church leaders were deceiving even from the very first post-apostolic generation we’re in a real mess. Whom can we trust then ( i do hope the answer is not going to be a classic “trust no man”), and why bothering having all these exegetical struggles of ours about ECFs ?
Bless you.
B
BMSODM
Guest
The Bible is clear if you have the whole Bible. You can’t rip things out of context. Hebrews was written because of the disobedient Jews that kept sacraficing animals in place of the Lamb on the Cross.
One needs to consider how our Lord said that “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Luke 4:4
AND So whats your point? Were do I say that man only lives by bread alone. Remember catholic’s teach Faith without works is dead…
As our physical life is sustained by food, so our spiritual life is sustained by the word of God.
And the Word became Flesh, and we eat that Flesh so our physical life will be in accord with our spiritual life.
**“Regardless of the state of the soul or the human body and its frailties in the body and the nature of man in the priesthood—regardless of how he disports himself upon earth, as a legally ordained priest, he will have the power through the Holy Spirit to bring My Son’s Body to you.” - Our Lady, February 10, 1978
**
- Status