Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi Gramps,

**Now here please, be charitable realcatholic! **

I always attempt to be charitable! But, I will never sacrifice truth and justice to be charitable. That in itself wouldn’t be real charity.

Let’s not talk about other users in a derogatory manner.

** Gramps, please show me one place where you think I talked about another user in a degrotory manner! I would never do that intentionally! I would appreciate you showing me one degrotory thing directed at another poster! **

**
If every user did this, CAF would be a horrid place.**

**I so agree! We should never stand for that! I have often corrected people making personal attacks. That doesn’t do anything to convince the poor lost souls that their distorted, corrupted beliefs being taught to them by their counterfeit churches aren’t really Jesus’ real teachings.

We should try, in christian love, to save their souls! Not make personal attacks on them! Their phony beliefs can and should be identified and condemned! **

Play fair,

**Always my friend, always! But, I will never lie to them! Their eternal souls depend on knowing the Truth.

Fight for the truth, Gramps!

God Bless **

 

[grampben]

Realcatholicgk, you were talking about that user with another user. And you were saying things that weren’t exactly very nice.
I don’t mean to ‘tell you off’, I presume things were said in the heat of the moment.
Your comments about charity and truth are true, but noone will move to your way of thinking if you are uncharitable!

God bless.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
Hi Tqualey, **
Hi, Realcatholicgk,
**
Now… I would never accuse you of suddenly going ‘soft and mushy’ on someone… but, this last post of yous was something to read. **

**I love these people so much, I actually worry that sometimes I may confuse the truth with charity and force one of them not to know the truth! “It isn’t easy telling it like it is!” Many bleeding heart Catholics think that their “false” gentleness is appreciated! Satan doesn’t love anything more then meek and gentle souls. They taste the best I am sure! **

Yes, I am confident you are correct in that the Devil is going to get some souls. And, yes, I did happen to notice the apparent confusion in Protestant101’s statements … but, you know what? I think (that if he continues to open his heart to the saving Word of God) the Holy Spirit will lead Protestant101 to the Catholic Church.

**“continue”? You see him opeing his heart to the saving words of God? Tqualey, he interprets the bible “Himself” He acts as god, Remember what Saint Augustine said: “If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” **

**
No, I do not think this will be a direct route - mainly because he has just soooooooooo many bags that he is carrying. He will just need to put down one at a time - read the Bible after praying to the Holy Spirt. Read the Early Church Fathers that so many Protestants quote (which really surprises me to no end…) and then pray about what he has learned.**
That works for Catholics who hear the Truth in Mass. It can’t work very well for souls being feed false teachings and false beliefs! Remember Satan clouds their minds! **
**
The lyric about “…saved a wretch like me…” keeps going through my head. Besides, giving up on people is not in the contract - my understanding is that we are to pray for everyone.

**I always say that. I am amazed that God would even consider saving a wretch as me! I sure don’t deserve Jesus’ Gift. But I joyfully accept it and rejoice in God’s mercy and love. I pray the rosary and divine mercy chaplet daily for the end of abortion and the conversion of sinners. I also started a novena to St Judeespecially for protestant101. I never give up praying just arguing! **
**
Personally, this personal focus has more value to us then it does for the person we think we are praying for.

Stay cool… **

**Stay warm!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi Gramps,
**
Realcatholicgk, you were talking about that user with another user. And you were saying things that weren’t exactly very nice.

Gramps, Please, don’t keep making false or erronous statements! Show me a quote of me talking about other users in a derogatory manner, as I asked you to do. It is called cut and paste If I did show me!

I don’t mean to ‘tell you off’, I presume things were said in the heat of the moment.**
**I also don’t mean to “tell you off” I realize you actually think you know what you are talking about. You don’t as far as I can tell. Please prove me wrong or stop judging what I say! I never ever say anything in the heat of the moment. Although the love of Jesus and His truth burns like a fire inside me, it isn’t an angry fire or a judgmental anger unless they call Jesus a liar! Then I will get rightfully anger but still I never insult them!

I love the people who are lost as much as Jesus did. I never direct my derogatory remarks towards another person, rather towards their corrupt beliefs! One is against the TOS, the other isn’t! .**

Your comments about charity and truth are true, but no one will move to your way of thinking if you are uncharitable!

** Actually some have Gramps! And most of the ones that haven’t know that I am telling them the truth as I believe Jesus wanted it told. You have to listen to Fr Corapi “When the dust settles and the smoke of battle clears, you will either be a winner, or a loser.”

I want all of us to be winners and Satan to be the only loser! His followers must be told the truth! It is our responsibility as Christians who really do follow Jesus to attempt to save the souls who wrongly follow the false teachings of the counterfeit churches!

As I said, Please show one quote of me talking about another users in a derogatory manner, I am willing to apology if I accidently do such a thing. Otherwise. Please stop pushing this thread off subject.

[SIGN]**Jesus is really present in the Bread just like he said! ****[/SIGN]

God Bless

 

[benedictus2]

While you are pasting that in your “funny book,” you should also find a place to paste what you said about Jesus being everywhere. Of course; He is or can be “everywhere;” but He is not “in everything.” Which a piece of bread would have to be counted as.

When that piece of bread and that cup of wine is changed to His Body and Blood it is no longer a THING, because HE SAID SO.

I wonder why you are so afraid of the truth.

 

[benedictus2]

“Where two or three are gathered together in My name;” is a good start. When we go to Communion; we are gather together “in His name;” and so Jesus is present in the experience, according to the Bible."

True, but it is not in the “experience” that He is present, it is in the gathering. Regardless of whether we “experience” Him or not, He is present in the gathering because HE SAID SO. In the same manner, the bread and wine is His body and blood, BECAUSE HE SAID SO. We take Jesus seriously when He speaks.

That is why we must test our experience by God’s Word.

But the devil could just as easily be in the testing. The only guarantee that you cannot err in the testing is if you go by what the Catholic Church teaches, because it is to her that the fullness of truth is promised through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Correct. My experience would not determine any such thing; but my experience would be a good witness, or testimony to His presence in the experience of Communion, or in your case, Mass. Again; God’s Word would have to be the test of the experience.

True. But how can your experience be a good witness if we cannot even be sure that your experience is indeed from God. You cannot test it with God’s word becuase it is precisely the interpretation of God’s Word that is in question here. That begs the question don’t you think.

Even in the Catholic Church, there are many who claim visions and “experience” which after investigation by the Catholic Church was actually proved to be from the devil. The Catholic Church is the last word on whether “experience” is indeed authentic.

Read Ignatius of Loyola’s rules for the discernment of spirit and maybe you will come closer to the truth about your experience.

I fully believe the words of John 6, but I reject totally the Catholic interpretation thereof. Not accepting the Catholic position on this would not make me a “non-Christian.”

No you do not believe the words of John 6. It is one of the CLEAREST teachings and yet you try to twist it. I have shown you before that you cannot understand it figuratively. It is not the Catholic position you are rejecting. It is Christ.

I believe that God’s will, as expressed in His Word, determines His presence, but I guess that if we are truly “gathered in His name,” some would call that a way of “controlling” or “determining” His presence. But it’s true, my “ego” has nothing to do with it. You are correct, in saying that Jesus gives Himself to us as food whether we deserve it or not, as we see in the very sad case of Judas at The Last Supper.

It is not controlling Him at all if we believe He is there in our midst when we are gathered in His Name. It is simply taking Him at His Word that because He said He is, then He must be present. In the same way, becuase He said the bread is Him then we take Him at His Word again and believe the bread is INDEED HIM.

Well, I knew before I made these posts that your church sees me as apostate, heretic, and the like. By your own church’s definitions, I don’t really feel I am qualified to be called such things, however, your church is not united on such topics anyways so I am leaning towards what the Bible says on it all.

You are right. If you were never baptized as a Catholic you are not apostate or heretic. Just someone in the dark. It is God’s will that you be born in that millieu and He knows what He is on about, all that is according to His plan.

But think about this, it is also His will that you should come into CAF that you may learn the truth.

Remember this as you read your Bible. Jesus did not go around with a secretary in tow saying write this, write what I say and make a biography of me so that people will know what I have said. Rather He established a Church upon Peter. And that Church is the Catholic Church.

He did not leave us with just a love letter (the Bible). Rather He left us with a family (the Catholic Church) and within this family, the love letter (Bible) came to be written.

Who is the one rejecting clear Scripture now?

You missed my point. I am saying that the Scriptural proof you gave is not related to John 6. All your quotes are indeed good, just totally irrelevant to the matter at hand.

 

[NonCatholic]

Hi there Non catholic,

 

[NonCatholic]

Aahhh yes, the protestant’s inability to understand that Christ is God and therefore can be anywhere He wants to be at the same time if He so wishes. What sort of a God do you have in your head? Obvioiusly you have a very limited God and a limited God is not God at all.

**

So therefore you can say goodbye to heaven because you have not BEHELD Him?

Another Biblical sleight of hand. Matthew 7:13:14 has absolutely NO BEARING ON JOHN 6 AT ALL.

And you are right there, He is explaining it in a more pressing manner on verse 47-48. But wait, it gets EVEN MORE PRESSING from verse 53.
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
*54 *
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 **For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. **56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 **Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also **the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, **whoever eats this bread will live forever." **

And one of the most clear and yet you keep failing to comprehend

And you sir are included in the "many’ who did not get it. The support you gave for your position above is no support at all.

That is right. Because you are separated from the Church to whom He gave the promise of the Holy Spirit to lead her into all truth, therefore all your nterpretations are natural and completely bereft of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You’re interpretation is that of man because you lack faith. Jesus very early on has said that you will need to believe before you can accept what He is saying. But because you do not believe and do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you cannot believe.

But oh yes He is becuase HE TOLD US SO. HE TOLD US REPEATEDLY AND YOU KEEP IGNORING HIM. It is like He is talking to you but you persist in sticking your fingers in your ears so you won’t hear. You ease the pressure of your fingers just enough to head only those that YOU WANT TO HEAR.

I noticed that you conveniently did not quote his discourse about his flesh. Why is that? Afraid of Christ’s own words?

Why is there no Biblical account of anyone gnawing on Jesus; particularly the Apostles, yet they regularly mention the breaking of bread? Why does Hebrews state the priesthood is done away with; yet Catholics have a priesthood. Why is that God destroyed the tabernacle did away with the altar, but yet your church has one?

How has Jesus changed your life…what’s your story?

 

[benedictus2]

You have mis-stated what I said. I said He is not present in a piece of bread, but, thankfully, He is present in the experience. “Where two or three are gathered together in my name.”

A correction. He is not present in the “experience”. He is present in the gathering. The experience is not the gathering. And the only way you know He is present in the gathering is because HE SAID SO. Much like the way HE SAID SO in John 6.

 

[NonCatholic]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Christ is at the right hand of God until He comes again; therefore He is not present at communion in the literal sense because then, He would not be at the right hand of God.

So Jesus, who is the 2nd person of the Trinity, can only be at one place at the same time?
He is omnipresent; so no. I do believe Him when He said He was at the right hand of God. If you remember what Jesus said to the Apostles about leaving so that the “helper” would come.
Cinette;4696360:

Whenever two or more gather in my name there I am in their midst. So Jesus cannot be in the midst of your prayer group because he would have to leave the “right hand of the Father”

If you take your Eucharist example of a literal eating of Christ, then apply it to the above; then I can conclude you have literally seen Jesus or 2 or more believers have never been in your midst, therefore you have not seen Him, yet you have eaten Him. I’m getting sick thinking about it as I write.

That is a good one - I will paste this in my funny book!

Very mature and Christlike.

 

[benedictus2]

Why is there no Biblical account of anyone gnawing on Jesus; particularly the Apostles, yet they regularly mention the breaking of bread? Why does Hebrews state the priesthood is done away with; yet Catholics have a priesthood. Why is that God destroyed the tabernacle did away with the altar, but yet your church has one?

When they broke the bread and ate the bread they were “gnawing” on Jesus. Do you assume they just broke the bread and did not eat it?

As to the priesthood, that will take a rather long explanation. I will prepare one and post it later.

How has Jesus changed your life…what’s your story?

I have a few little landmarks in my spiritual growth but the biggest one was at a retreat whilst meditating on the prodigal son. That for me was totally life changing. That was when I came to know the utter undeservedness of Gods love for me and how completely unconditional it is.

I will write that up and email it to you (if you accept emails) as it is quite off topic and too long to post here. PM me if you would like me to email you my story.

 

[NonCatholic]

And I replied to this point on another thread. You actually did something that was very dishonest. You quoted scripture changing the words to support your point of view that the Word is the water of baptism that Paul speaks of. If I had not actually re-checked your quote I probably would have believed you too. Now I make it a habit to check your scriptural quotes just to be sure.

You made a serious accusation here, please provide the forum name and post#.

If you really believe in Scripture, you will allow it to speak for itself rather than gagging it and making it say what you want it to say.

Questions for you? When is the last time you read the Bible? How often do you read the Bible? How often do you actually study the Bible?

 

[latingirl]

Protestants:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”
- John 6:53-55

"Doth this offend you?” - John 6:61.

 

[benedictus2]

You made a serious accusation here, please provide the forum name and post#.

I will locate the thread. In the meantime it is about baptism when you substituted the word “of” for “and”. Very minor change but it actually changed the entire meaning of the verse.
The line was for you have been cleansed by water “and” his word but you said “water of his word”

Will try to locate that thread this evening…

Questions for you? When is the last time you read the Bible? How often do you read the Bible? How often do you actually study the Bible?

I don’t study the Bible. I read the Bible and allow it to speak to me. Although every now and again when a passage is difficult I do try to do a bit more research on it. I have 7 books of commentaries on the Bible but I don’t call it studying. Most of the time, I just meditate on the passage. I will respond again to this post and explain to you how I meditate on the Bible. My personal story about the prodigal son has a lot to do with this kind of reading the Bible.

Here is something that you need to understand about Catholics.

At every Mass daily, there are 3 readings from the Bible. One from OT or letters, one from Psalms and one from the Gospel.

On a Sunday, we have 4. One from OT, followed by Psalms, then Letteers, then the Gospel.

On Easter Vigil you have about 7.

So if you are a practicing Catholic, there is no getting away from hearing the word of God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Let me try my hand at this and see if these responses address the topic:

Why is there no Biblical account of anyone gnawing on Jesus; particularly the Apostles, yet they regularly mention the breaking of bread?

The mental picture I had when you asked this question was why didn’t one or more of the Apostles drop to their knees and begin to chew on Christ’s hands and feet? My guess is that they did not have any more of a clue then the Jews who were walking away from Christ. The Apostles were equally dumbfounded So, what is the difference between them and the group who walked away from Christ? Faith. They and other Jews were present when Christ multiplied the loaves - both of these groups saw what Christ did - yet, only the Apostles put their faith where it belonged - on the Son of God.

As my imagination continues… so, here I see the Apostles going up to Peter and asking him what is going on. Peter may have responded, “I don’t know about that - but, there is one thing that I do know: Christ has the words of eternal life!” This second part (John 6:68) was said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit… but, no one understood what Christ was talking about until He revealed what He meant at the Last Supper (Mark 14:22).

Now, this is where our belief in God being able to do all things - and especially the things that He Himself said, comes into practice. Here is Christ celebrating Passover - His last meal - with His friends. Christ knows He will be dead in less then 24 hours - so He is going to take this time to speak very clearly to them. Christ consecrates the common bread and tells the Apostles “This is my Body”. Christ in now, physically, holding Himself in His Own Hands - and gives it to the Apostles to eat (as in gnaw on). There is no natural explanation for this. All we have are the statements from Christ (and, by the way, that is all you have, too! ) Christ told His friends to “do this” as in repeat this process (consecrating common bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ). The Apostles were now directly given the power and authority - by God Himself - to, in fact, “do this”. And this would be the very beginning of the priesthood in the CC.

Why does Hebrews state the priesthood is done away with; yet Catholics have a priesthood.

As I understand Heb 10:11- “Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God; now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.”

The reference being made by Paul is that the old Jewish animal sacrifices did not remove sin. Christ’s sacrifice removed sin and His action pleased God very much.

Christ died once for all. The Catholic Priest at Mass in not ‘re-killing’ or ‘re-sacrificing’ Christ. Rather, the priest is following Christ’s directives to, “…do this in memory of Me…”. The Priest, in the person of Christ, is consecrating the common bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ - the Son of God.

Why is that God destroyed the tabernacle did away with the altar, but yet your church has one?

Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (Matt 16:19). Peter (and by extension, his successors the Popes - all the way to Benedict XVI) has the power and authority and responsibility to make what changes are necessary. The CC has determined that a tabernacle and an altar will be an essential part of a Catholic Chruch so that the un-bloodly sacrifice of the Mass can be celebrated.

Ultimtely, it really rests on faith.

Either one believes what Christ said - as plainly recorded in your own Bible - or, one believes something and/or someone else. What else is there?

There are plainly spoken words that if were used in a legal document like a Last Will and Testament - would be clearly followed. Opposing council wanting to void the Will would have to prove the Testator was not competent, was not quoted correctly or there was some kind of fraud. The other move would be to come up with another and quite different meaning to what was clearly written. And, this is where we stand. Read the words in your own Bible. Stop and pray for the Holy Spirit to open your heart.

God bless

 

[benedictus2]

You made a serious accusation here, please provide the forum name and post#.

Found the post.

The link below is to my reply to your post

I was wrong about the change from “and” to “of” in my previous post. It is actually “with” to "of’ but you will see that in my post.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4592627&postcount=114

 

[MDK]

Protestants:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”
- John 6:53-55

"Doth this offend you?” - John 6:61.

The Most Holy Eucharist is a beautiful, and incomparable gift from God, the gift of Himself. Here is where those who cannot accept the Eucharist which is the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Catholic Church, are described in the Bible… John 6:66 “As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.”

 

[ufamtobie]

Why is there no Biblical account of anyone gnawing on Jesus; particularly the Apostles, yet they regularly mention the breaking of bread? Why does Hebrews state the priesthood is done away with; yet Catholics have a priesthood. Why is that God destroyed the tabernacle did away with the altar, but yet your church has one?

I wrote this ealier to John 7

Non Catholic

Do you eat a live cow if you want a piece of steak?

What a cow does whether it knows it or not he is sacrificing itself for us to Eat.

As with Jesus Christ, he knew exactly that he was sacrificing for us, in order for us to EAT and DRINK and be SAVED.

What does food do to our body’s when we EAT it?.. It nourishes us, keeps us alive.

What does DRINK do for our body’s it refreshes us, and keep us alive.

The above eat and drink is to maintains PHYSICAL LIFE in us.

BUT!!! we also need Nourishment for the Life of our SOULS and thats where the EUCHARIST the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity gives us. Jesus gives us Life for our Souls and Body

That is why Jesus tells us if we Do Not EAT or Drink His Body and Blood we have NO LIFE in us.

non catholic Please don’t go around eating and drinking a live cow if you want steak lol Let it be sacrificed first Like Jesus Christ, sacrificed himself for us, and only then can we begin to Eat and Drink of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Jesus Christ, is indeed I Solemnly Assure you! Truly, Truly say to you, Non catholic, that, Jesus Christ is indeed FOOD Jesus is indeed DRINK that Nourishes Us WITH ALL THAT IS NEEDED TO BE SAVED!

How has Jesus changed your life…what’s your story?

Non catholic, it is through the Holy Eucharist that Jesus Changed my life. Yes The Bible is good but the FOOD and DRINK is better it nourishes me with heavenly vitamins the Body and Blood of Christ, that brings life into my soul.

Non catholic, if a man was born deaf dumb and blind what use is the Bible? … Can someone read to him the bible?.. NO! for he can’t hear. Can he read the bible in braille? No! this man is severerly mentally disabled dumb. But can someone offer him The Body and Blood of Christ to eat? Yes!

This Man being deaf, dumb, and blind, he will not know or understand that he is Eating and Drinking Jesus’s Body and Blood but the Nourishment the word of the bible made Flesh that this man Eats and Drinks IS THERE that leads him to salvation. amen!

Non catholic, who is the one that is feeding the Eucharist to this Deaf, Dumb and Blind Man, above?.. it is Jesus Christ, Through the Catholic Church.

Many are deaf, dumb, and blind spiritually when it comes to the Holy Eucharist! And since they say, they can see, and hear, their sins remain.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Cinette]

The Most Holy Eucharist is a beautiful, and incomparable gift from God, the gift of Himself. Here is where those who cannot accept the Eucharist which is the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Catholic Church, are described in the Bible… John 6:66 “As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.”

I would like to put a question to those on this thread who do not believe in Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist - “Eat my flesh, drink my blood”.

Why did the Disciples withdraw and turned away and no longer walked with Jesus?

This is a serious question addressed to non-believers.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[Protestant101]

I would like to put a question to those on this thread who do not believe in Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist - “Eat my flesh, drink my blood”.

Why did the Disciples withdraw and turned away and no longer walked with Jesus?

This is a serious question addressed to non-believers.

Thank you
Cinette

Maybe the ones who walked away were the ones who wanted to call a piece of bread Jesus. There would certainly be lots of Bible support for such an idea. The idea that those who don’t support the Catholic interpretation of the Lord’s Supper is a presumption. Not a proven fact.