Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[benedictus2]

John 17:20-21 How you ever known anyone that was saved that did not have a personal relationship with Christ? If you honestly think this is not so or not important, than you are worse than I thought.

The verse you mention is Christ praying for unity among his followers (which by the way protestants have shot to pieces) in the same way that He is united with His Father. It does not in anyway say that we need a personal relationship with Christ to be saved.

All I am saying is, since you always hold up the Bible to be your guide, where in the Bible does it say that you need a personal relationship with Christ. You have not been able to give any verse to support that.

I believe that it is important to have a personal relationship with Christ but I can tell you now that I am sure that people have been saved even though they did not have a personal relationship with Christ for the simple reason that I do not think only Christians will go to heaven.

 

[NonCatholic]

But the flesh and blood scenario on the cross is not about eating and drinking his body and blood. John 6 and the last supper on the other hand do speak of eating and drinking his body and blood.

What do you think after he said This is my Body they did not eat the bread? John 6 and the institution of the Eucharist narrative go hand and hand.

The PRIMARY message of John 6 is salvation; that’s all I’m saying.

 

[NonCatholic]

The verse you mention is Christ praying for unity among his followers (which by the way protestants have shot to pieces) in the same way that He is united with His Father. It does not in anyway say that we need a personal relationship with Christ to be saved.

All I am saying is, since you always hold up the Bible to be your guide, where in the Bible does it say that you need a personal relationship with Christ. You have not been able to give any verse to support that.

I believe that it is important to have a personal relationship with Christ but I can tell you now that I am sure that people have been saved even though they did not have a personal relationship with Christ for the simple reason that I do not think only Christians will go to heaven.

Quote: “I am sure that people have been saved even though they did not have a personal relationship with Christ”

Then you don’t believe the Bible if you honestly believe that. The only exceptions to this that I can think of and it not something that one can be dogmatic about is children and the mentally impaired.

 

[benedictus2]

The PRIMARY message of John 6 is salvation; that’s all I’m saying.

And I have no issue with that. But John 6 does not merely talk about salvation. It gives the how of salvation. And the how is the eating and drinking of His Body and Blood.

 

[benedictus2]

Then you don’t believe the Bible is you honestly believe that. The only exceptions to this that I can think of and it not something that one can be dogmatic about is children and the mentally impaired.

There. You, yourself have given an exception. Need I say more?

 

[NonCatholic]

How so? You are the one making the Holy Spirit a liar. You and the 33,000 or so denominations with different takes on the Bible.

If you are convinced that you are guided by the Holy Spirit and another protestant with a different view to yours is convinced they are guided by the Holy Spirit, which one of you is really guided by the Holy Spirt since you can’t be both correct.

And if you are both guided by the Holy Spirit and yet came up with different interpretations then heavn help us because that means you have one mighty confused spirt.

I stand corrected, must be getting tired, I reread what you said 3-4 times you did not make the Holy Spirit a liar in the context I read it…sorry.

No one is infallible, including the Catholic church, on interpretation 100% of the time. If this were so then we would know that this was written by a finite mind, not an infinite mind. We can understand/interpret accurately most things. We is anyone who has the indwelling and is diligent and faithful to the Word.

 

[NonCatholic]

There. You, yourself have given an exception. Need I say more?

You must be getting tired as well, for I said I cannot be dogmatic about it, which I can’t. The implication is that the reason people go to hell is for rejecting Jesus or in the case of the bushman, the revelation given to them; a child or mentally impaired person cannot make that accept or reject decision. So I guess in a sense I have shown it in the negative sense…love thinking out loud.

 

[NonCatholic]

And I have no issue with that. But John 6 does not merely talk about salvation. It gives the how of salvation. And the how is the eating and drinking of His Body and Blood.

If you equate eating and drinking with believing and obeying, then I agree.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi SeventhDayAdventist101,

That’s the trouble - you keep wanting to “guess what” with matters of salvation.

**
The Trouble is Satan has you blinded to the truth! You keep wanting to ignore Jesus and His teachings**

Plenty of texts are being shown to forum members here that also show other things 'required for salvation" than the Lord’s Supper.

There are more things “required for salvation” they are inclusive not exclusive of eating Jesus’ flesh just as he commanded to have life!

Christ is always present through His Word, and through His Word Christians “feed” on Him even today.

**Does your bible have gnaw marks all over it and missing pages? You can read His words, you can absorb His word, you can’t “eat” His words! He never said “the scriptures are my body, eat them!” **

The word of the living God is not merely written, but spoken. The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears.

**I would not be surprised if you admitted you heard voices! Satan does that, or so I have been told! **

If we realized this, with what awe would we open God’s word, and with what earnestness would we search its precepts! The reading and contemplation of the Scriptures would be regarded as an audience with the Infinite One.

Yada, yada, yada…:coffeeread:

The Bible describes itself, quite fittingly, as “Food For The Soul;” whether or not Catholics like the idea!
**
No where does any scripture say that the Bible is food for the soul! That is perhaps the dumbest thing you have ever said, than again maybe not! Sending people to “your” site to prove your point was a real good touch! Boy, I’m a believer now! **

See Spiritual Food

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

SeventhDayAdventest101, What about John 5: 38-45 old buddy??? "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. “I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?"

Learn the truth it will free you from satan’s grip!

God Bless

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I stand corrected, must be getting tired, I reread what you said 3-4 times you did not make the Holy Spirit a liar in the context I read it…sorry.

Hi Non,
It is good when we admit we make mistakes. After all, unlike the catholic church, we aren’t protected from error by the Holy Spirit!

No one is infallible, including the Catholic church, on interpretation 100% of the time.

**See? You are wrong again, get some sleep! **

If this were so then we would know that this was written by a finite mind, not an infinite mind. We can understand/interpret accurately most things. We is anyone who has the indwelling and is diligent and faithful to the Word.

**We can understand our minds and what we think we read just like you did. The Holy Spirit. throught jesus’ real church must interptet the real truths. He does and Jesus’ followers believe and follows them. Others don’t believe and turn their backs on jesus and His teachings. We call them protestants and heretics. God calls them the lost sheep!

I pray that all the lost sheep are found and saved before they fall into the pit of fire that their current master has prepared for them! **

 

[benedictus2]

If you equate eating and drinking with believing and obeying, then I agree.

No I don’t equate eating and drinking with believing and obeying. But if you eat and drink His Body and Blood becuase you believe, then you are indeed obeying His command.

I also understand that this is something very hard for people to accept. To be able to accept it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

When Scott Hahn went to His first Mass the belief came. At the moment of consecratoin he just knew. He said to himself, “My Lord, it is really you.”. That kind of seeing he did not get from trying to fathom it himself. After years of believing it was symbolic, one day he just knew it was truly Christ.

And that is a gift. I don’t expect you to believe just because we say so. We can give you as much support from the Bible as we can (and I think we have done a very good job of that), the rest only the Holy Spirit can do.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The verse you mention is Christ praying for unity among his followers (which by the way protestants have shot to pieces) in the same way that He is united with His Father. It does not in anyway say that we need a personal relationship with Christ to be saved.

All I am saying is, since you always hold up the Bible to be your guide, where in the Bible does it say that you need a personal relationship with Christ. You have not been able to give any verse to support that.

I believe that it is important to have a personal relationship with Christ but I can tell you now that I am sure that people have been saved even though they did not have a personal relationship with Christ for the simple reason that I do not think only Christians will go to heaven.

**Hi Ben,

Of course, you are correct. However I feel compelled to add, That if someone becomes “aware” of the truth of Jesus and rejects that truth they can’t be saved.**

The non-churched people of the world are also eligible to enjoy eternal life “from Christ’s death, through the graces of the Catholic church alone”

Fallen away “Catholics” condemn themselves. Protestants who know of Jesus but reject His church, reject Him, thereby condemning themselves also! You can’t seperate Jesus from His church. He is rthe head we are His Body! You can’t possess Jesus without His real church. By Jesus’ own words, the church has His authority on earth, not one Protestant group does. They can speak all they want to, they can do all the counterfeit things they want, or like protestant101 even eat the bible, it can’t save them or their eternal souls from damnation! Only Jesus and his real teachings can do that! He verifies that in the Bible many times. We need to pray for them always.

I like your style!
God Bless

 

[benedictus2]

No one is infallible, including the Catholic church, on interpretation 100% of the time. If this were so then we would know that this was written by a finite mind, not an infinite mind. We can understand/interpret accurately most things. We is anyone who has the indwelling and is diligent and faithful to the Word.

But the Church is infallible. The guidance of the Holy spirit works both ways. Not only is the Church to preach what is true, the Holy Spirit also prevernts her from teaching what is false.

That is why on subjects like predestination, she affirms the pre-destination of the elect but she does not make any pronouncement on how this works. Theologians advance theories but these theories are not dogmas. The only dogman is the pre-destination of the elect.

Where she cannot make an infallible pronouncement, she remains silent.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

No I don’t equate eating and drinking with believing and obeying. But if you eat and drink His Body and Blood becuase you believe, then you are indeed obeying His command.

I also understand that this is something very hard for people to accept. To be able to accept it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

When Scott Hahn went to His first Mass the belief came. At the moment of consecratoin he just knew. He said to himself, “My Lord, it is really you.”. That kind of seeing he did not get from trying to fathom it himself. After years of believing it was symbolic, one day he just knew it was truly Christ.

And that is a gift. I don’t expect you to believe just because we say so. We can give you as much support from the Bible as we can (and I think we have done a very good job of that), the rest only the Holy Spirit can do.

 

[benedictus2]

Realcatholicgk:

**I like your style!
God Bless **

Thank you.

And I like the fact that you have Pope Benedict on your signature. I think he is amazingly brilliant. We are truly blessed to have him as our Pope.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

benedictus2:
Thank you.

And I like the fact that you have Pope Benedict on your signature.

**He speaks the truth! **

I think he is amazingly brilliant.

**Of course he is German! **

We are truly blessed to have him as our Pope.

**
Amen again! **

 

[Cinette]

A mystery by definition is something not yet revealed…Christ has revealed Himself…keep on being mysterious, which is part of your fascination and it might lead to destruction. I said it might, not it would, but might.

Now now NonCatholic behave yourself! - play nicely!

:tsktsk: :tsktsk: :tsktsk:

 

[Cinette]

Way to go! Pennies are finally dropping. Yes, there are **also other **things “required” for salvation but eating and drinking his blood is one of them. We are not saying that just because you received Christ in the Eucharist you are therefore assured of salvation.

Pray tell what is the spoken word of God that is separate to the written Word.

Could not agree with you more. So why do you refuse to listen to Jesus when he speaks.

Yes, yes, and another yes to that. And we have never ever, said otherwise. Scripture is indeed food for the soul. But Christ is very clear, that His body and His blood are true food and true drink indeed. And it will give you eternal life.

And where is that written? In the Bible.

Hi Benedictus -

It is what I said. At Sunday Mass we have the Liturgy of the Word where we have a passage from the OT, Psalms, Epistle and then the Gospel - all these passages are connected. The scripture provides spiritual food for the soul.

Then we have the Liturgy of the Eucharist which is the very Body and Blood of Jesus.

The Mass has its origin from the Apostles. That is why we are Apostolic and why we have Apostolic Succession.

We have never denied that the Scriptures are food for the soul.

 

[ufamtobie]

ufamtobie;4711106:

As I understood Non Catholic’s profile to mean is that he has no religion only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not that he belongs to a Church called None Personal relationship with Jesus Christ! LOL

Cinette,

With all due respect, Let me hear this from Non Catholic, Cause I want to know his understanding of it.

Oh by the way Cinette, i hav not open your private email as yet I will, when I get back.

God Bless

Ufam Tobie

 

[CradleRC]

This, to me, is the basis of Christian doctrine and why we as Catholic Christians possess the fullness of Christianity. In John 6:53ff (NAB), Jesus says “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you will not have life within you.” Furthermore, in John 13:20, Jesus says “Whoever receives the one I send (the priest) receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me (the Father).” In consecrating the Bread, Jesus put Himself in the Bread. Likewise, in consecrating the wine, the Lord put Himself in the wine. Reference Luke 22:14ff (NAB). In John 14:10ff, Jesus asks his disciples “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in meis doing his works.”
We believe that in saying “Do this in remembrance of Me”, our Lord not only instituted the Eucharist whereby the disciples consumed His precious Body and Blood, but also instituted the priesthood by and from whom we Catholic Christians today receive the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just as the Levites from Aaron on offered sacrifice for himself and for the prople of God, the priest today offers the Sacrifice of the Mass which is the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus acted because the Father is in Him, the priest acts in loca Christe because Jesus is in the priest and also in the gifts of bread and wine at the time of the consecration to substantially change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. Otherwise, why would our Lord command that we consume his Body and Blood without providing us a way to validly do it? He did provide us the Way as the Father provided the ram for sacrifice to Abraham instead of his first born son Isaac (see Genesis 22:13 NAB)