Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[NonCatholic]

Hey NC…

**
NonCatholic;4723197:

You are not separating the carnal from the spiritual, the mortal from the immortal.

**

I’m not sure what you are talking about! If I separate the carnal from the spiritual, then --I will be on target? I thought I did. To eat and drink is not to be understood carnally; Jesus earthly, corruptible body and blood were not to be consumed; are we in agreement vis-a-vis that point?

Once Jesus conquered death, and appeared to His Followers, and then Ascended into Heaven, His followers, finally, knew for certain, that He wasn’t speaking carnally —right? He was speaking spiritually; the spirit is life; we are commanded by Jesus to eat and drink His Glorified Body, in the form of bread and wine. Their “fathers” had to eat the bread, while wandering in the desert, to sustain their mortal, corruptible life, just as everyone is to eat the new bread that came down from heaven (Jesus) --to sustain their immortal, incorruptible bodies.

Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat…

Jesus’ followers believed their fathers, actually had to eat (ingest/digest) the bread in order to live.

…but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

They literally believed that Jesus was talking about bread, akin to the bread given to their fathers (ingested/digested).

…So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven…Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

Why did they grumble? What is the difference between eating manna, which can’t save, and eating the bread that comes down from heaven, which can save, so that one may eat of it and not die.

The word eat, in both instances, means exactly the same thing; that is the very reason why His followers are grumbling; they believe Him; you don’t; my sister doesn’t?

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

I know I would have been shocked, especially if I were a Jew; to use the word eat in a metaphorical sense, was to revile someone. If they were to interpret, eat, that way, they would be, even more confused, e.g. --Why is Jesus asking us to revile Him, as if He were our enemy. However, they don’t even consider the metaphorical interpretation of --“eat my flesh.” They clearly interpret, “eat my flesh,” in a literal sense --that is why they are grumbling. So, what does Jesus do, to set the record straight? He bolsters His convictions; He reiterates, that what they are thinking is in fact what He is saying:

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, **you have no life in you. **

Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood** has eternal life,** and I will raise him up on the last day.

For my** flesh is true food**, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will **live because of me. **This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

He doesn’t say, who ever feeds on the word of God; if He meant that, He would have said that --right? If His followers were to interpret it that way, why would they walk away from such a harmless teaching? Instead of grumbling, they would be celebrating the idea of metaphorically feeding on Jesus’ teachings, for His teachings would lead to eternal life; all would be ecstatic. Sadly, that’s not how the events transpired.

Again, you confuse the literal flesh and blood with the spiritual food that Jesus is…if Jesus wanted you to eat His flesh and drink His blood in a literal/carnal sense, then this would be throughout Scripture as part of the salvation message. But John 6:63 Jesus tell us the context of His message, which is consistent with His divine nature and the salvation message of Scripture. Not only that, but Jesus has two natures, the human and divine…the human nature, which is the literal flesh and blood is not omnipresent; therefore He could not be at all those Mass’s all the time.

In John 6, the fact that He compares the carnal/manna in the wilderness to Himself the true spiritual food from Heaven… should be another clue that He is not talking literal flesh and blood. This is why He says that those that ate the manna die, but those that eat the true spiritual food from heaven will never die. Romans 8 gives a good comparison to flesh versus spirit; I think James may do the same.

I would be concerned because all of you take the same stance the as the people that walked away because of unbelief; they did not believe Jesus and near the end of the message He clears away the crowd by “making it too hard to swallow” excuse the pun.

 

[NonCatholic]

**Everyone overlooks two things. 1) the term “eat”, euphemism… **

I’m not seeing the euphemism, and neither did the grumblers, I am afraid to say?

**…in the Jewish mind would be an intense understanding of something, to be immersed into it to the point where eating and drinking it day and night. Like we are told to do in learning the Bible, which most people do not. **

But, you seem to be missing one crucial point —and it is plain as day --Jesus’ followers --the grumblers, aren’t interpreting the words, (eat my flesh, drink my blood, whoever feeds on me…) – euphemistically; quite the contrary; they are grossed out!

**2) What is the way to salvation? a heart of repentance, believing on the Lord by faith through Christ. **

Yup and yup!

If you look at John 6 the terms of believe, coming to , behold are used, then Jesus already knows who will and won’t believe…

Yes, Jesus already knows who will not believe Him, when He says:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, **you have no life in you. **

That is the context…

**…and so he makes the statement even harder for them to believe…kind of like let’s get rid of all these unbelievers right now…
**

Really???

If Jesus was speaking euphemistically --His followers, including the Apostles, would be happy as a clams, for this teaching wouldn’t challenge their Jewish beliefs --right or wrong?

…so I’ll put it another way that they could never handle.

Why would Jesus intentionally obfuscate His followers? After all, He was there to redeem them; He loves them?

The remainder understood and believed and if for no other reason, Jesus tells us the manner in which He spoke…in spirit and truth.

The unbelievers didn’t get the euphemism, but the believers got it and nothing has changed in 2000 years. That’s why the believers didn’t say…hey Jesus…mind if I tap a vein and could I have your next toe nail clipping.

 

[Cinette]

joe370;4725928:

Hey NC…

**

Again, you confuse the literal flesh and blood with the spiritual food that Jesus is…if Jesus wanted you to eat His flesh and drink His blood in a literal/carnal sense, then this would be throughout Scripture as part of the salvation message. But John 6:63 Jesus tell us the context of His message, which is consistent with His divine nature and the salvation message of Scripture. Not only that, but Jesus has two natures, the human and divine…the human nature, which is the literal flesh and blood is not omnipresent; therefore He could not be at all those Mass’s all the time.

In John 6, the fact that He compares the carnal/manna in the wilderness to Himself the true spiritual food from Heaven… should be another clue that He is not talking literal flesh and blood. This is why He says that those that ate the manna die, but those that eat the true spiritual food from heaven will never die. Romans 8 gives a good comparison to flesh versus spirit; I think James may do the same.

I would be concerned because all of you take the same stance the as the people that walked away because of unbelief; they did not believe Jesus and near the end of the message He clears away the crowd by “making it too hard to swallow” excuse the pun.**

@&%$)*&: "&%$@:}+%

 

[Cinette]

NonCatholic:
The unbelievers didn’t get the euphemism, but the believers got it and nothing has changed in 2000 years. That’s why the believers didn’t say…hey Jesus…mind if I tap a vein and could I have your next toe nail clipping.

:bigyikes: Disgusting!:bigyikes:

 

[submittedjoy]

I believe that where two or three are gathered in his name then He is present. With or without communion. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[Peter_J]

But John 6:63 Jesus tell us the context of His message, which is consistent with His divine nature and the salvation message of Scripture.

You’ve probably heard this before, but I think you make too much out of that one verse.

Not only that, but Jesus has two natures, the human and divine…the human nature, which is the literal flesh and blood is not omnipresent; therefore He could not be at all those Mass’s all the time.

So then, when Christ walked on water, did he leave his human nature on the shore, since human nature can’t walk on water?

 

[Peter_J]

who count their Pope as superior in authority to the Bible;

Who? Only Catholics who are ignorant of what the Church teaches.

 

[Peter_J]

I believe that where two or three are gathered in his name then He is present. With or without communion. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[Cinette]

I believe that where two or three are gathered in his name then He is present. With or without communion. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I like your signature submittedjoy. Would like to add:

"Jesus answered “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit”. John 3:5.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Conversely, we have “Popeolatry” rife within catholicism, who count their Pope as superior in authority to the Bible; which by the way you cannot separate from Jesus.
**
Hi Protestant101, **

Keeping warm? No real Catholic counts the Pope superior in authority to the Bible. We do depend on him and the church to insure we aren’t corrupt in our thinging. If not we would thing Saturday was the right day to worship, and other foolish things like creation taking 7 days of 24 hours when there wasn’t any clock to set the time. All that type foolishness could corrupt our belief system. We might not even know to eat Jesus’ real body and blood! If not for the church and the Pope!

Jesus and His Word are one and the same parcel - a complete whole. He is present in His Word - through His Word.
**
Jesus is not present in any Bible. Are you starting a new cult? **

The only thing you have to really “prove” your point about John 6 is the Pope’s say so,

**
No actually Jesus said so 12 times, buddy. 12 times! Count! **

and under the circunstances you are forced to claim “church authority” to support your claims about Jesus being a piece of bread when the priest so decides at Mass.
We claim the authority given to His church through the apostles! We are one of the few churches that actually can do that!

Protestants claim Bible authority.

** Are you sure? With 61,000 groups it is hard to figure out exactly what they all claim, isn’t it? Your cult have 28, or is it more, claims now. About 20 of them are really way out side what jesus teaches in the bible! I know that real Protestants have over 1,375 different claims.

Catholics wrote the bible so you are saying Protestants now accept Catholic church’s authority? No, they and you accept the corrupt, distorted counterfeit beliefs and bible that Satan made. That is what false believers accept. And the real Protestants may get mad with your pretending to be a Protestant. Your cult isn’t 500 yeas old! Is it? Why don’t you throw Ellen G. White over on the side with the other false believers and come join the real church! **

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

[SIGN]Hi Benedictous[/SIGN]So I spelt it wrong dont forget to tell me how dumb I am. In REV:1;4 there are 7 Spirits and if you read on there are 7 angels of the 7 churches there is not one Spirit God has 7 Spirits, and when I come back from shopping I’ll give you more information but you should READ the BOOK.If you deny the Word of God then you deny God and the son of God.It is your soul that you should be worried about I do love you and I pray Holy Father God will open your eyes and clean them with heavenly salve so you can see and undeerstand Later Nancy

 

[Cinette]

[SIGN]Hi Benedictous[/SIGN]So I spelt it wrong dont forget to tell me how dumb I am. In REV:1;4 there are 7 Spirits and if you read on there are 7 angels of the 7 churches there is not one Spirit God has 7 Spirits, and when I come back from shopping I’ll give you more information but you should READ the BOOK.If you deny the Word of God then you deny God and the son of God.It is your soul that you should be worried about I do love you and I pray Holy Father God will open your eyes and clean them with heavenly salve so you can see and undeerstand Later Nancy

Nancy, did you read ALL the postings so that you can be fully up-to-date with the discussion as Benedictus recommended?

:nope: I don’t think so :nope:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

You know, it is one thing to state your beliefs (or, unbeliefs as the case may be) but, it really is quite another to dictate to God how He is to present the material He has presented. Truly, this is an astounding statement you have just made.

Again, you confuse the literal flesh and blood with the spiritual food that Jesus is…if Jesus wanted you to eat His flesh and drink His blood in a literal/carnal sense, then this would be throughout Scripture as part of the salvation message. But John 6:63 Jesus tell us the context of His message, which is consistent with His divine nature and the salvation message of Scripture.

Let’s take a closer look at John 6 and see how Christ presented His message. The teaching technique used here can be summarized in one word: repitition.

John 6: 1-15 - the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. Something outside of the natural course of events - something that can not be done today (just try asking any company you can find that you want to feed 5,000 men and an undetermined number of women and children in a out of the way place right now… it can’t be done.)

John 6: 16-23 - Jesus walks on the water. Again, something outside of the natural course of events - something that can be done today without special equipment. Jesus is showing that His Human Body is not confined to the limits of our natural experiences. Finally:

John 6: 24-71 - the Eucharistic Discourse. we will take a look at Jesus presenting His Plan and then restating, reinforcing and repeating for the benefit of everyone (and, that means us, too!)

When the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into boats and came to Capernaum looking for Jesus.
25
And when they found him across the sea they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26
Jesus answered them and said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled.
27
Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal."
28
So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?”
29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
30
So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?
31
16 Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32
****So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. ****
33
For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34
So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35
**Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. **
36
But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe.
37
Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
38
because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
39
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.
40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.”
41
The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,”
42
and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

…Continued pages 1 of 2

 

[tqualey]

…Continued page 2 of 2

NonCatholic’s statement:

Again, you confuse the literal flesh and blood with the spiritual food that Jesus is…if Jesus wanted you to eat His flesh and drink His blood in a literal/carnal sense, then this would be throughout Scripture as part of the salvation message.

Continuation from John 6: 43

43
Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring among yourselves.
44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.
45
It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.
46
Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.
47
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
48
**I am the bread of life.
49
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” **52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53
**Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” **59
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61
**Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. **67
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
71
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.

This is the entire 6th Chapter. The entire context includes this presentation ending with John 6: 71 and the actual delivery of the Promise as contained in the Last Supper Discourse where Matthew, Mark and Luke all record Christ’s words: “Take and eat THIS IS MY BODY” Remember Jesus has not risen from the dead - yet He is holding HIS BODY in HIS HANDS and giving it to His Apostles with very specific instructions.

No where else in the recorded Gospels does Jesus repeat Himself. Not only does He repeat Himself, He emphasizes and then re-emphasizes the fact that is presented in John 6: 53-59.

Christ draws a very clear and permanent line: you either stand with Christ and what He said - or - you walk away. Note, it is not recorded that anyone walked away from Christ because He compared Himself to a door, a vine, a sower, the son of a vineyard owner, a shepherd, etc. The Eucharistic Discourse is totally different. He was not trying to make anything sound good or pleasant - He went to great lengths to tell it like it is.

Each of us has a choice - believe in the words of Christ and that He is God and has Power over nature (as He demonstrated in the first two parts of John 6) or refuse to believe. It is really that cut and dry - because that is the way Christ presented this material to his listeners. Most walked. Note: Christ did not go running after them, saying something like, “Hold on, you guys misunderstood me.”

To present John 6 as a comedy, a misunderstanding, a farce or a fraud is wrong. Forget that the Jews were insturcted on the Passover Lamb: selection, killing, preparation - and - they ate it. Christ is the Lamb of God as announced by both Johns: John the Baptist upon seeing Christ at the Jordan River and John the Apostle in Revelation.

To present John 6: 63 (“The spirit gives life…”) as one statement to turn over the previous 8 statements about the Christ giving us His Flesh and Blood to eat and drink - is truly to lose the context of the statement. Christ is telling His listeners that they must elevate their thoughts and stop complaining that Christ is not doing things the way they want (like getting rid of Roman troops occupying Judea).

If you choose to not believe, that is your business - I and the others have chosen to believe and these are choices (among others) we will all have to answer for at our judgment.

God bless

 

[Cinette]

Tom!

Your presentation is beautiful and true. For anyone to turn their back on this irrefutable truth is tragic, I believe

Thank you and God bless you.

 

[NonCatholic]

Hi, NonCatholic,

You know, it is one thing to state your beliefs (or, unbeliefs as the case may be) but, it really is quite another to dictate to God how He is to present the material He has presented. Truly, this is an astounding statement you have just made.

Show me one time where Jesus’s body, in human form, was at more than one place at a time…all the examples you gave below only prove my point.

Let’s take a closer look at John 6 and see how Christ presented His message. The teaching technique used here can be summarized in one word: repetition.

Like the crowd that went away in disbelief, you do the same. The repetition you refer to is throughout Scripture because John 6 is the salvation message. Literal eating of Jesus is not. Only in the minds of the “many”.

John 6: 1-15 - the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. Something outside of the natural course of events - something that can not be done today (just try asking any company you can find that you want to feed 5,000 men and an undetermined number of women and children in a out of the way place right now… it can’t be done.)

John 6: 16-23 - Jesus walks on the water. Again, something outside of the natural course of events - something that can be done today without special equipment. Jesus is showing that His Human Body is not confined to the limits of our natural experiences. Finally:

John 6: 24-71 - the Eucharistic Discourse. we will take a look at Jesus presenting His Plan and then restating, reinforcing and repeating for the benefit of everyone (and, that means us, too!)

…Continued pages 1 of 2

 

[NonCatholic]

:bigyikes: Disgusting!:bigyikes:

I agree!

 

[NonCatholic]

If you choose to not believe, that is your business - I and the others have chosen to believe and these are choices (among others) we will all have to answer for at our judgment.

 

[NonCatholic]

Look at the results of the Poll; this is the “few” versus the “many”.

By the way; did I mention that John 6 has nothing to do with the Lords Supper; except the flesh and blood refer to the cross.

 

[Cinette]

I agree!

You know very well that I was referring to your presentation.

How you can speak like that of Jesus is beyond me.

It is :bigyikes: disgusting.:bigyikes: