Protestants: Do you REALLY believe Scripture??

[SIA]

Sia,

About purgatory, EVENTUALLY you will come to believe IT wether it be in this life, but DEFINITELY in the next LIFE: you will not only come to believe in it but you will also FEEL IT! Thats if you go there. thumbsup:

Ufamtobie

I pray that some day you will be led by the Holy Spirit into truth. The truth spoken of in Scripture, the truth of Christ who is our crystal fountain of faith and the purest realization of the faith and the truth which will set us all free. I pray that you will one day posess faith in Christ that will far surpass what the RCC would wish for you. then and only then will you realize that purgatory, the assumption, the immaculate conception and all of the other devisive schemes created were done so not for the glory of God but for selfish reasons of control. I pray that you will find the peace of Christ in your life and the truth.

 

[Robbinson]

I pray that some day you will be led by the Holy Spirit into truth. The truth spoken of in Scripture, the truth of Christ who is our crystal fountain of faith and the purest realization of the faith and the truth which will set us all free. I pray that you will one day posess faith in Christ that will far surpass what the RCC would wish for you. then and only then will you realize that purgatory, the assumption, the immaculate conception and all of the other devisive schemes created were done so not for the glory of God but for selfish reasons of control. I pray that you will find the peace of Christ in your life and the truth.

I’m truly sorry you believe this SIA but I don’t see how you can conclude, objectively (and if we are being intellectually honest with one another), that anything was done by the Church for “selfish reasons of control”. That conclusion is based entirely on your starting supposition that the Catholic Church is wrong and does not posses the authority it posseses. Of course, if it does have that authority (which I believe it does) than its theology is Holy Spirit driven and others’ only partially so.

You may choose not to believe in these doctrines - but I feel driven by the Holy Spirit from the Protestant faith to the teachings of the Catholic Church - so lets all pray for each other to find the peace of Christ in our life (which many believes comes from the Sacraments of the Church and many believe comes from a personal relationship with Christ alone without Sacraments and without the authority of the Church).

If you would like to dialogue about specific doctrines you find offensive or difficult to believe - lets discuss them - coming from a Protestant perspective moving towards Catholicism, I think it could be an interesting discussion.

As to purgatory - I think it “holds water” from a logical perspective - we know from scripture distincitons will be made among believers based upon their following of Christ’s commandments - and we know that scripture talks about our works going through a purifying fire. If we are all saved without distinction - why is it necessary for Christ to tell the apostles to forgive the sins of folks who are already saved? Think about that - it is a thought provoking issue to those who focus on “faith alone” and who ignore the significance of works (response to God’s call).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[SIA]

As to purgatory - I think it “holds water” from a logical perspective

Whose perspective? I don’t see Scripture telling us that there is a purgatory. Jesus didn’t preach purgatory. He preached his Father’s Kingdom alot but never spoke of a place of purgation.

 

[Robbinson]

Whose perspective? I don’t see Scripture telling us that there is a purgatory. Jesus didn’t preach purgatory. He preached his Father’s Kingdom alot but never spoke of a place of purgation.

I don’t see scripture telling us, using the word “Trinity” about the doctrine of the “Trinity” but it is derived by scripture and accepted by most Christians (Catholic and Protestant).

But here is one scriptural verse that is consistent with the concept of purgatory:

1. 1 Cor 3:15

***11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. ***

Notice here that we are talking about a Christian - because the verse tells us that while he will suffer “loss”, he will be saved - “but only as one escaping through flames”. We must be purified as through fire - those whose works/response to God has been pure enough will go straight to heaven - those who have faith in Christ and who are saved, but who have not followed Christ’s commandments (remain in mortal sin) will have their works tested and burned, as thorugh fire. This process of testing/suffering is purgatory - but he/she will remain saved after purification.

What is your interpretation of this verse?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[SIA]

I don’t see scripture telling us, using the word “Trinity” about the doctrine of the “Trinity” but it is derived by scripture and accepted by most Christians (Catholic and Protestant).

But here is one scriptural verse that is consistent with the concept of purgatory:

1. 1 Cor 3:15

***11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. ***

Notice here that we are talking about a Christian - because the verse tells us that while he will suffer “loss”, he will be saved - “but only as one escaping through flames”. We must be purified as through fire - those whose works/response to God has been pure enough will go straight to heaven - those who have faith in Christ and who are saved, but who have not followed Christ’s commandments (remain in mortal sin) will have their works tested and burned, as thorugh fire. This process of testing/suffering is purgatory - but he/she will remain saved after purification.

What is your interpretation of this verse?

Blessings,

Brian

Why would a person believe that Paul wasn’t speaking about matters in this life?

 

[TriuneUnity]

1. 1 Cor 3:15

***11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. ***

Notice here that we are talking about a Christian - because the verse tells us that while he will suffer “loss”, he will be saved - “but only as one escaping through flames”. We must be purified as through fire - those whose works/response to God has been pure enough will go straight to heaven - those who have faith in Christ and who are saved, but who have not followed Christ’s commandments (remain in mortal sin) will have their works tested and burned, as thorugh fire. This process of testing/suffering is purgatory - but he/she will remain saved after purification.

What is your interpretation of this verse?

Blessings,

Brian

It is speaking of the office of the ministry. Paul is referring to the foundation, which is the ministry of the apostles. In other epistles, Paul tells us that we, the church, are building on that foundation. Paul is saying if we build on the foundation with straw, hay, or wood, when all is revealed at the Last Day (second coming), our stubble will be burned away. If we build on it with gold and precious stones, the fire will refine and perfect it.

The context of this passage has nothing to do with salvation. Please read the verses prior and following.

“What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.”

 

[Robbinson]

Why would a person believe that Paul wasn’t speaking about matters in this life?

I’m not sure how one can read this text as referring to this life. When/how will it be tested? On the day of judgement. When in this life would our works be tested? (to the contrary, scripture tells us over and over that are rewards are in the life to come not this life - think of the story of Lazarus for example). The entire verse first distinguished between the saved and unsaved and then distinguished between those saved on the basis of the testing of their work (which testing by definition will occur at judgement). So if that is the basis for your rejecting the concept of purgatory, I think that read is a bit of a stretch.

Also - I’d point out that in addition to there being collateral support for the concept of prayer for the dead. Why pray for the dead if there is not state after this life in which prayers can be relevant (in fact, most Protestant’s don’t pray for the dead for this reason - which has always made me uneasy). Of course, Macabees supports prayers for the dead (though this book is rejected by Protestants as not part of the cannon). But Jews in the Old Testatment prayed for the dead (and still do) as presumably Jesus would have as a sinless law abiding Jew - and why? because it can make a difference. In addition, if you look at the earliest years of the Church, surviving litergies from the earliest period includes prayers for the dead, showing the early Church also included this practice (why if it is to no avail)?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[SIA]

I’m not sure how one can read this text as referring to this life. When/how will it be tested? On the day of judgement. When in this life would our works be tested? (to the contrary, scripture tells us over and over that are rewards are in the life to come not this life - think of the story of Lazarus for example). The entire verse first distinguished between the saved and unsaved and then distinguished between those saved on the basis of the testing of their work (which testing by definition will occur at judgement). So if that is the basis for your rejecting the concept of purgatory, I think that read is a bit of a stretch.

Also - I’d point out that in addition to there being collateral support for the concept of prayer for the dead. Why pray for the dead if there is not state after this life in which prayers can be relevant (in fact, most Protestant’s don’t pray for the dead for this reason - which has always made me uneasy). Of course, Macabees supports prayers for the dead (though this book is rejected by Protestants as not part of the cannon). But Jews in the Old Testatment prayed for the dead (and still do) as presumably Jesus would have as a sinless law abiding Jew - and why? because it can make a difference. In addition, if you look at the earliest years of the Church, surviving litergies from the earliest period includes prayers for the dead, showing the early Church also included this practice (why if it is to no avail)?

Blessings,

Brian

My whole premise for rejecting purgatory is that we have to really look into the passages and twist them to get a clear sense of purgatory. This is not my thoughts of truth. I believe that if Jesus wanted us to know about purgatory as he wished us to know about his Father’s Kingdom, he would clearly told us this in the Scriptures. He did not, so to try and get it from taking this verse and that and then twisting them in some sort of way doesn’t cut it for me.

 

[Robbinson]

My whole premise for rejecting purgatory is that we have to really look into the passages and twist them to get a clear sense of purgatory. This is not my thoughts of truth. I believe that if Jesus wanted us to know about purgatory as he wished us to know about his Father’s Kingdom, he would clearly told us this in the Scriptures. He did not, so to try and get it from taking this verse and that and then twisting them in some sort of way doesn’t cut it for me.

But SIA - do you feel this about the ‘Trinity’ whic is also not spelled out in scripture but was derived by scripture over the decades following the death of the last apostles? There is a great deal of theology we have derived from scripture (and on which Catholics and Protestants agree).

My point is that if one is rejecting a doctrine of the Church (and criticizing others for believing it), then the burden should be on those doing so to show why the doctrine is either contrary to scripture or does not logically follow from interpretation of scripture. While I admit that purgatory is not spelled out neatly in scripture - I believe it is alluded to quite directly in 1 Cor 13 and the concept is consistent with prayers for the dead in Jewish tradition, in macabees and in the earliest years of the Church as supported by the liturgical record.

Again - I’ll emphasize you need not agree - but please appreciate this is not the “black and white” case some posts have suggested (and as was implied by the post of your I initially replied to). We will all find out some day whether there is a purgatory or not. Till then, I’ll continue to pray for the dead (will you/do you pray for your deceased loved ones and, if so, why?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Robbinson]

It is speaking of the office of the ministry. Paul is referring to the foundation, which is the ministry of the apostles. In other epistles, Paul tells us that we, the church, are building on that foundation. Paul is saying if we build on the foundation with straw, hay, or wood, when all is revealed at the Last Day (second coming), our stubble will be burned away. If we build on it with gold and precious stones, the fire will refine and perfect it.

The context of this passage has nothing to do with salvation. Please read the verses prior and following.

“What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.”

High Triune Unity (sorry, I missed this post as it got sandwiched between my replies to SIA).

You are correct about the immediate context - but I believe this is indeed speaking of salvation. We know that teachers will be judged more severely than the rest of us and this is another example of that - not affecting salvation, but relevant. If a Christian teacher is saved but will be judged more severely than the rest of us - what does that mean in the absence of a concept of purgatory (purification of our imperfections before entering into heaven to face the most Holy one who can’t tolerate sin?).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[SIA]

But SIA - do you feel this about the ‘Trinity’ whic is also not spelled out in scripture but was derived by scripture over the decades following the death of the last apostles? There is a great deal of theology we have derived from scripture (and on which Catholics and Protestants agree).

My point is that if one is rejecting a doctrine of the Church (and criticizing others for believing it), then the burden should be on those doing so to show why the doctrine is either contrary to scripture or does not logically follow from interpretation of scripture. While I admit that purgatory is not spelled out neatly in scripture - I believe it is alluded to quite directly in 1 Cor 13 and the concept is consistent with prayers for the dead in Jewish tradition, in macabees and in the earliest years of the Church as supported by the liturgical record.

Again - I’ll emphasize you need not agree - but please appreciate this is not the “black and white” case some posts have suggested (and as was implied by the post of your I initially replied to). We will all find out some day whether there is a purgatory or not. Till then, I’ll continue to pray for the dead (will you/do you pray for your deceased loved ones and, if so, why?

Blessings,

Brian

First of all, the Trinity is very clear cut in Scripture. There are several instances when Jesus declares himself as being one with the Father and told the Apostles that if they see him, they also see the Father. he also told them that he and the Father are one. Many other statements of proof of the Trinity in the Bible. Secondly, we do pray for the dead. I believe that you are still in the midst of the stereotype that Protestants don’t pray for the dead because they don’t believe in purgatory. One does not need to believe in purgatory to pray for the dead.

 

[Robbinson]

First of all, the Trinity is very clear cut in Scripture. There are several instances when Jesus declares himself as being one with the Father and told the Apostles that if they see him, they also see the Father. he also told them that he and the Father are one. Many other statements of proof of the Trinity in the Bible. Secondly, we do pray for the dead. I believe that you are still in the midst of the stereotype that Protestants don’t pray for the dead because they don’t believe in purgatory. One does not need to believe in purgatory to pray for the dead.

SIA - fair enough - but help me out. If you don’t believe in purgatory - what is the purpose of your prayer for the dead (e.g., in the absence of purgatory, I imagine you believe you are saved and in heaven or not saved in hell - we know from scripture hell is eternal, and heaven is eternal. What are you praying for (if you don’t mind my asking, as its relevant to this discussion I believe)?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[sola_scriptura]

Heaven and hell are not presented as “eternal” concepts. N.T. Wright authored a good book on this topic called “Surprised by Hope.”

Read Revelation 21 – when the “saved” die we go to heaven. However, we do come back in a new form. When the New Jerusalem descends from the first heaven, there is the resurrection (of those who died in Christ) – we become co-rulers in the millennial kingdom.

Those who are resurrected at the outset of the end times will not be effected by the second death.

However, at the second coming a new heaven and new earth will be formed by God (at which point the devil is bound for a thousand years). After the millennial kingdom all others are resurrected and there is judgment.

The nature of “hell” is more ambiguous. The words used to denote “eternal” have been debated by commentators for quite some time. It is thought by some that the word actually points to an “age” rather than eternity (as we commonly use the word). In addition – at one point Jesus does point to the destruction of unbelievers rather than eternal torment (however, there are references to eternal torment as well).

What we do know is that God commands us to pray so that everyone might be saved. We also know that unbelievers (at least those who were ministered to & have been exposed to the Gospel message) will face condemnation (however, at John 3:18 the concept of condemnation is not expanded on).

I personally do believe in this millennial kingdom (however, it’s not to say it will last exactly a 1,000 years – our concept of time is completely different than God’s).

 

[Robbinson]

Heaven and hell are not presented as “eternal” concepts. N.T. Wright authored a good book on this topic called “Surprised by Hope.”

Read Revelation 21 – when the “saved” die we go to heaven. However, we do come back in a new form. When the New Jerusalem descends from the first heaven, there is the resurrection (of those who died in Christ) – we become co-rulers in the millennial kingdom.

Those who are resurrected at the outset of the end times will not be effected by the second death.

However, at the second coming a new heaven and new earth will be formed by God (at which point the devil is bound for a thousand years). After the millennial kingdom all others are resurrected and there is judgment.

The nature of “hell” is more ambiguous. The words used to denote “eternal” have been debated by commentators for quite some time. It is thought by some that the word actually points to an “age” rather than eternity (as we commonly use the word). In addition – at one point Jesus does point to the destruction of unbelievers rather than eternal torment (however, there are references to eternal torment as well).

What we do know is that God commands us to pray so that everyone might be saved. We also know that unbelievers (at least those who were ministered to & have been exposed to the Gospel message) will face condemnation (however, at John 3:18 the concept of condemnation is not expanded on).

I personally do believe in this millennial kingdom (however, it’s not to say it will last exactly a 1,000 years – our concept of time is completely different than God’s).

Point taken Triunity (that this is one relatively common interpretation of a literal reign of Christ on earth). But even so, if true, what is the purpose of praying for the dead in the absence of believe in a concept of purgatory for without that concept, those saved are saved (without punishment) and those not saved are not saved (without hope).

I’ll give a partial answer to my own question - I believe another purpose of prayers for the dead (besides for those in purgetory) is that God is outside of time so he can help those who have passed by in their time line revealing himself to them in the moments of death. But SIA wont’ (if consistent in his/her rationale of bible interpretation) accept this because you can’t find this clearly spelled out in the Bible. But I would say its implied with statments that God is the beginning and end (outside of time) and the image of the thief on the cross (God showing that we can, with God’s grace) find God in the last moments of our lives.

So - still to you both (SIA and Triune) - why pray for the dead if it can’t make a difference?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[TriuneUnity]

High Triune Unity (sorry, I missed this post as it got sandwiched between my replies to SIA).

You are correct about the immediate context - but I believe this is indeed speaking of salvation. We know that teachers will be judged more severely than the rest of us and this is another example of that - not affecting salvation, but relevant. If a Christian teacher is saved but will be judged more severely than the rest of us - what does that mean in the absence of a concept of purgatory (purification of our imperfections before entering into heaven to face the most Holy one who can’t tolerate sin?).

Blessings,

Brian

Being that Scripture does not reveal the exact nature of being saved as through fire for teachers, we cannot say. As sola said, such concepts are intentionally left ambiguous.

Aside from the context being that of preachers and teachers, another reason the text is not pointing to an intermediate state of purging after death is that it is eschatological. It is speaking of the day of judgment, which is at the second advent, when the dead are raised and the sheep and goats are separated. Obviously, the goats will not be saved as through fire, so that leaves the sheep…at that point, the full understanding of Paul’s words here will be made known.

We do know, however, what will happen at the point of death; “it is appointed once for men to die and then the judgment.” We must interpret passages such as 1 Cor. 3 in the light of clearer passages. Scripture interprets Scripture.

While you’re doing a great job at explaining the way Catholics see this passage, it frankly is just not speaking about anything remotely resembling purgatory.

 

[distracted]

I pray that some day you will be led by the Holy Spirit into truth. The truth spoken of in Scripture, the truth of Christ who is our crystal fountain of faith and the purest realization of the faith and the truth which will set us all free. I pray that you will one day posess faith in Christ that will far surpass what the RCC would wish for you. then and only then will you realize that purgatory, the assumption, the immaculate conception and all of the other devisive schemes created were done so not for the glory of God but for selfish reasons of control. I pray that you will find the peace of Christ in your life and the truth.

i suggest you get into Catholicism before you go making these kind of statemnts… Otherwise, you just sound ignorant… (you can get mad all you want… but) you ***are… ***