Protestants: Doesn't it bother you that your religion is of man-made origin?

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Gee, and the “reformers” never did or endorsed any activities in kind? Come now…lets not embrace “historical revisionism”, or pitch one sided stories. “Kleptocracy”? You are “reaching” my friend…a long distance…

Shazzzzammmm!! That’s actually a new one!! I’ve never heard that one before!! Can you google it? Please tell us which of the Xian Parody sites you gleaned that tidbit from, OK?

Man you have caught that virus bad!! I’m afraid you’re round the esoteric bend.

That’s your take on that, I guess. You’ll have to forgive me for seeming a tad glib…but your rant is going a little downhill and gaining speed…

Aren’t you “flying in the face of Christ’s own words”? Being just a little “judgmental” maybe. Seems you object to that precise thing that you are doing presently. You are lumping an awful lot of people in one pot and painting with a very broad brush. Actually…you are being rather unfriendly and well…more than just judgmental. How very “Xian” of you.

My friend, what you posted above paints you in my minds eye as being one who’s mind is closed and very narrow. I’m sorry if that offends you…but for me, Catholicism is not about “ego, elitism, arrogance, or holier-than-thou pride”.

I will only say this: IF you knew but one-tenth of what you claim to know about Catholics and the Catholic Church…you would know better than to make statements like you have which are baseless and erroneous at best.
Baseless, arrogant insults continue to be the Catholic apologist’s method of choice. For kleptocracy, for example, look at the Avignon papacy, or the sale of indulgences, etc.; the political motivation of the Reformation was the sacking of Germany by Rome; their plunder went to artwork in the Vatican, which is a memorial to greed if nothing else.

You may have heard it before but you still have no argument against it. You seem to be more interested in the furtherance of the papacy than the pursuit of truth, and are willing to silence any voice against the papacy at any cost.

RobHorn, welcome to my Ignore list.
 
Actually it was over 70 years… That is pretty long. Most of the original Apostles if not all were dead by that point.
Did the Faith die with them ? Of course not. The Church continued to bring the Good News through Apostolic Succession.

So all we have here, is that we agree men die. I don’t think that’s a very good argument against what I said in my post Ken. Do you ?
 
Although a generally young bunch of 33,000 odd denominations, Protestants work hard at what they do.
http://cathopologist.com//public_html/wp-content/downloads/Young Protestant.jpg
Its not an easy task convincing 2000 year old established Church members that Protestantism has all the answers.
With so many different denominations, covering just about every philosophy known to the human race, I’m thinking they not only have all of the* right* answers but all of the wrong ones, too.

The trick is to sort which from which. 😛

No one has ever explained to me how one “sells” or “buys” an Indulgence. 🤷
 
Baseless, arrogant insults continue to be the Catholic apologist’s method of choice.
That is hardly the case… it seems to be more “your style”. You have hurled plenty of “baseless and ignorant insults” in your previous post and continue herein.

My response to you was “tongue-in-cheek” with a little humor in it, but you jumped up put another hot load in the old 12 gauge and “blew your foot off”.
For kleptocracy, for example, look at the Avignon papacy, or the sale of indulgences, etc.; the political motivation of the Reformation was the sacking of Germany by Rome; their plunder went to artwork in the Vatican, which is a memorial to greed if nothing else.
Ahhhhh yes, the “Bastion of Strength of the Reformist Supporters Litany”…Ancient History… that completely lacks any synergistic understanding of world history… Rather they would hang onto morsels of sensationalistic whoo-hoo’isms that purportedly validate their misunderstandings of reality.

Care to “produce” any SECULAR valid and verifiable source for your allegations beyond your vitriolic meanderings?
You may have heard it before but you still have no argument against it.
Yes, I have heard many of these vitriolic false musings and “repititively redundantly” so…Yet…nary a single one of the proponents of this musings has offered a single “secular” and viable shred of evidence. It is pointless to argue against what is not in existence. Utterly pointless.
You seem to be more interested in the furtherance of the papacy than the pursuit of truth, and are willing to silence any voice against the papacy at any cost.
I am ever amazed at the depths to which “internet psychologists”
can get into my head and at the speed they do it… :eek: No, I am always in the pursuit of “Truth”…, but not at the auspices of angry and disaffected individuals who are hypocritical…all the while “purporting” to be “followers of Christ”.
RobHorn, welcome to my Ignore list.
A couple of other thoughts… You do realize that all you have done is embarrass yourself? You’ve blown a lot of smoke, and made a lot of keystrokes…but said nothing…?

I am tempted to ask: Did someone do something nasty to your wheaties this morning…but I won’t.

Happy to be of service! 😃
 
Did the Faith die with them ? Of course not. The Church continued to bring the Good News through Apostolic Succession.

So all we have here, is that we agree men die. I don’t think that’s a very good argument against what I said in my post Ken. Do you ?
I didn’t say I was arguing agaisnt you, I just like to be factual… A short time sounds like withing a few years of Christ’s death and ressurection. Not 70 years.
 
Abuses
It may seem strange that the doctrine of indulgences should have proved such a stumbling-block, and excited so much prejudice and opposition. But the explanation of this may be found in the abuses which unhappily have been associated with what is in itself a salutary practice. In this respect of course indulgences are not exceptional: no institution, however holy, has entirely escaped abuse through the malice or unworthiness of man. Even the Eucharist, as St. Paul declares, means an eating and drinking of judgment to the recipient who discerns not the body of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). And, as God’s forbearance is constantly abused by those who relapse into sin, it is not surprising that the offer of pardon in the form of an indulgence should have led to evil practices. These again have been in a special way the object of attack because, doubtless, of their connection with Luther’s revolt (see LUTHER). On the other hand, it should not be forgotten that the Church, while holding fast to the principle and intrinsic value of indulgences, has repeatedly condemned their misuse: in fact, it is often from the severity of her condemnation that we learn how grave the abuses were.

Even in the age of the martyrs, as stated above there were practices which St. Cyprian was obliged to reprehend, yet he did not forbid the martyrs to give the libelli. In later times abuses were met by repressive measures on the part of the Church. Thus the Council of Clovesho in England (747) condemns those who imagine that they might atone for their crimes by substituting, in place of their own, the austerities of mercenary penitents. Against the excessive indulgences granted by some prelates, the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) decreed that at the dedication of a church the indulgence should not be for more than year, and, for the anniversary of the dedication or any other case, it should not exceed forty days, this being the limit observed by the pope himself on such occasions. The same restriction was enacted by the Council of Ravenna in 1317. In answer to the complaint of the Dominicans and Franciscans, that certain prelates had put their own construction on the indulgences granted to these Orders, Clement IV in 1268 forbade any such interpretation, declaring that, when it was needed, it would be given by the Holy See. In 1330 the brothers of the hospital of Haut-Pas falsely asserted that the grants made in their favor were more extensive than what the documents allowed: John XXII had all these brothers in France seized and imprisoned. Boniface IX, writing to the Bishop of Ferrara in 1392, condemns the practice of certain religious who falsely claimed that they were authorized by the pope to forgive all sorts of sins, and exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next. When Henry, Archbishop of Canterbury, attempted in 1420 to give a plenary indulgence in the form of the Roman Jubilee, he was severely reprimanded by Martin V, who characterized his action as “unheard-of presumption and sacrilegious audacity”. In 1450 Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa, Apostolic Legate to Germany, found some preachers asserting that indulgences released from the guilt of sin as well as from the punishment. This error, due to a misunderstanding of the words “a culpa et a poena”, the cardinal condemned at the Council of Magdeburg. Finally, Sixtus IV in 1478, lest the idea of gaining indulgences should prove an incentive to sin, reserved for the judgment of the Holy See a large number of cases in which faculties had formerly been granted to confessors (Extrav. Com., tit. de poen. et remiss.).

You can read more here:
newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm
 
How conveniently Catholics forget that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al attempted reform from within the Catholic Church and were excommunicated, threatened with death, saw their friends burned, etc. The papacy was solely interested in political power and kleptocracy. Corrupt teaching, such as on indulgences, were used by the shepherds to rape the sheep. From confession to celibacy, church doctrine has been used to extend and enforce church rule in a desire that every human being, living or dead, be under the rule of the pope.

The unity you desire is that of the grave. Christ’s prayer in John 17 is fully capable of being answered by God the Father on His own terms, as opposed to human terms. The unity you desire is on human terms. Abraham sought to have an heir on human terms, and so Ishmael came into being, and his descendents still are a problem today. The child of promise, Isaac, came at God’s time and in His power. There is a unity in the universal church that is spiritual as opposed to the carnal unity in the “Catholic” church that is Catholic in name only, as so many, many Christians are outside it, whether Protestant or Orthodox.

You invite us back to burn us at the stake. No interest in your sham unity on my part. Is there charity in the Catholic church? Is there the fruit of the Spirit or the impartation of grace in its sacraments? You will find little evidence of it on this thread or many others on CAF, where Catholics come to jeer and spit at Protestants and attempt to rub their alleged spiritual superiority in. Better to remain Protestant and have some humility than to become Catholic and forfeit any semblance of faith or grace.

I find myself increasingly angry at such claims, such arrogance, such ignorance on the part of many Catholics. The attitude seems to be endemic to the Catholic posters, especially on the part of the converts who pat themselves on the back for getting it right as opposed to all those hardened Protestants or those lazy cradle Catholics.
Well, JPII acknowledged the Church has had those in the Hierachy that have erred in the past. Are you saying brief periods of corruption are reason to reject the Church Herself ?

This human reasoning you speak of. What inspired your rant ? All you have presented is a list of reasons to justify your rejection of the very institution responsible for your Faith in Christ.

And by the way, I have not smelled any burning flesh in my lifetime. And as far as Luther and company, a lighter Cross to bear doesn’t appeal to me. Catholicism isn’t fun. It ruins everything. Everything mundane that is. Mundane things such as “an easier road to heaven, free of guilt for embracing the things of this world”. The only thing you’d have to actually burn is your KJV.
 
I’m going to leave this rest today. It’s Sunday, and I’ve already strayed from our Lord’s Commandment.

I’ll acknowledge any other replies to my posts another day.

God Bless you all.
 
Interesting that many of the arguments have not changed over nearly five centuries.

It shows how little reason is involved and how much emotion. When dealing with religious issues emotion becomes a very strong factor but only a factor that needs to be taken into account when seeking truth.

Having studied these issues for about 40 years myself, I find it difficult to avoid an emotional response to emotional “button pushing” although I try.

All organizations are the fruits of human endeavour, for better or for worse. The reformers of the 16th century saw problems and wanted to correct them. When we look at subsequent history the Church corrected most of them.

There was much political and economic intrigue in the “Reformation” but the “Counter Reformation” was not perfect either.

Seeking TRUTH and leaning toward Rome because of strength of argument.

Harri
 
Interesting that many of the arguments have not changed over nearly five centuries.

It shows how little reason is involved and how much emotion. When dealing with religious issues emotion becomes a very strong factor but only a factor that needs to be taken into account when seeking truth.

Having studied these issues for about 40 years myself, I find it difficult to avoid an emotional response to emotional “button pushing” although I try.

All organizations are the fruits of human endeavour, for better or for worse. The reformers of the 16th century saw problems and wanted to correct them. When we look at subsequent history the Church corrected most of them.

There was much political and economic intrigue in the “Reformation” but the “Counter Reformation” was not perfect either.

Seeking TRUTH and leaning toward Rome because of strength of argument.

Harri
😃 Very well said Harri!!😃

BTW…Welcome to the forums!!

Peace!
 
No one has ever explained to me how one “sells” or “buys” an Indulgence. 🤷
That “dead horse” has been kicked so many times…he has rotted away, and its bones have turned to dust and been blown away by the wind…but, but They insist on kicking it some more…or are they trying to “resurrect” it? :eek:

Can anyone tell me where to buy some? Do they accept Visa, MC or AMEX?😃
 
That “dead horse” has been kicked so many times…he has rotted away, and its bones have turned to dust and been blown away by the wind…but, but They insist on kicking it some more…or are they trying to “resurrect” it? :eek:

Can anyone tell me where to buy some? Do they accept Visa, MC or AMEX?😃
I got one for praying the Rosary this morning. Can I put it on E–bay? How much should I ask for it? :rolleyes:
 
I’m personally glad that someone finally had the God given courage to stand up for Christ and the truth against Rome. The Roman Catholic church is a man made institution which denies the very existence of the Church Christ founded. Thank God for Martin Luther who finally had the guts to stand up for it.
RIGHT ON AMEN !!! Thank You SIA.
 
How conveniently Catholics forget that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al attempted reform from within the Catholic Church and were excommunicated, threatened with death, saw their friends burned, etc. The papacy was solely interested in political power and kleptocracy. Corrupt teaching, such as on indulgences, were used by the shepherds to rape the sheep. From confession to celibacy, church doctrine has been used to extend and enforce church rule in a desire that every human being, living or dead, be under the rule of the pope.

The unity you desire is that of the grave. Christ’s prayer in John 17 is fully capable of being answered by God the Father on His own terms, as opposed to human terms. The unity you desire is on human terms. Abraham sought to have an heir on human terms, and so Ishmael came into being, and his descendents still are a problem today. The child of promise, Isaac, came at God’s time and in His power. There is a unity in the universal church that is spiritual as opposed to the carnal unity in the “Catholic” church that is Catholic in name only, as so many, many Christians are outside it, whether Protestant or Orthodox.

You invite us back to burn us at the stake. No interest in your sham unity on my part. Is there charity in the Catholic church? Is there the fruit of the Spirit or the impartation of grace in its sacraments? You will find little evidence of it on this thread or many others on CAF, where Catholics come to jeer and spit at Protestants and attempt to rub their alleged spiritual superiority in. Better to remain Protestant and have some humility than to become Catholic and forfeit any semblance of faith or grace.

I find myself increasingly angry at such claims, such arrogance, such ignorance on the part of many Catholics. The attitude seems to be endemic to the Catholic posters, especially on the part of the converts who pat themselves on the back for getting it right as opposed to all those hardened Protestants or those lazy cradle Catholics.
Exactly . Thank You
 
From confession to celibacy, church doctrine has been used to extend and enforce church rule in a desire that every human being, living or dead, be under the rule of the pope.

I find myself increasingly angry at such claims, such arrogance, such ignorance on the part of many Catholics. .
Truthstalker,
You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

Yes, I can tell you are angry, that much is obvious. You are dead wrong, however in assigning bad motivation to the Church. Where have you gotten your information? Lorraine Boettner? Jack Chick?

If you are a faithful Christian, and you aren’t afraid of the truth, (even if it might mean that you are wrong) I would suggest buying a Catechism or reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church online. You can look up each question you have and find the Scriptural reference to all the practices you are confused about.

In order for you to believe what you have been told, you have to believe that people in years past were just stupid and evil. Give people of years past a break.
 
. Better to remain Protestant and have some humility than to become Catholic and forfeit any semblance of faith or grace…
Truthstalker (I love your name, and if indeed you will give everything you have to find the truth you will find it.
"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

You speak of humility, but do you actually know it?

Humility is acknowledging that you have been wrong, and humble yourself to a higher authority than your own understanding. It is following so hard after Christ that it means allowing family and friends to think you have lost your salvation and are courting the WOB. It means realizing that maybe what I thought all along was right, is actually wrong.

Faithful protestant Christians are our separated brethren. They have a “shadow” of the fullness of Truth. They are saved, no doubt about it. But the Catholic Church is the “Full Gospel.”
 
Truthstalker (I love your name, and if indeed you will give everything you have to find the truth you will find it.
"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

You speak of humility, but do you actually know it?

Humility is acknowledging that you have been wrong, and humble yourself to a higher authority than your own understanding. It is following so hard after Christ that it means allowing family and friends to think you have lost your salvation and are courting the WOB. It means realizing that maybe what I thought all along was right, is actually wrong.

Faithful protestant Christians are our separated brethren. They have a “shadow” of the fullness of Truth. They are saved, no doubt about it. But the Catholic Church is the “Full Gospel.”
oh enough already. We are not the seperated Brethren. I get so sick and tired of all the attacks on non Roman Catholics. Yes I said Non Roman. I am a Catholic just not a roman Catholic, I am a memeber the Holy catholic Church Lutheran Rite. Now what is some Roman Catholic apologist is going to attack me for what i just said? So What!! " Bring it on attack me all you want !! Sticks and stones Sticks and stones.
 
oh enough already. We are not the seperated Brethren. I get so sick and tired of all the attacks on non Roman Catholics. Yes I said Non Roman. I am a Catholic just not a roman Catholic, I am a memeber the Holy catholic Church Lutheran Rite. Now what is some Roman Catholic apologist is going to attack me for what i just said? So What!! " Bring it on attack me all you want !! Sticks and stones Sticks and stones.
Hello Friend:

When scripture eludes them they must revert to sticks and stones.

I get it all the time on this board, but what I never get is a sound and sober refutation of reformed doctrine from scripture. I’ve gotten everything from violent streaks of anger (frustration really at their own ineptitude) to platitudes and hot air.

I even see one guy wants to burn the King James – I say go ahead (it’s built on the Latin Vulgate anyway). Fun fun. Girdle up your loins protestants and take it on the chin. The elect will always be hated.
 
If you look for stone-throwing and mud-slinging, that’s what you’ll find - and you’ll find it on both sides.

But if you look for real charity, you’ll find it, too. You’ll find it on both sides; you’ll even see both charity and the lack of it coming from each of us, at different times.

Ruthie, who tries to practice what she preaches, but sometimes fails
 
Distracted is applauding because what was quoted by I BELIEVE is true.

To call someone Satan is extremely offensive.:tsktsk:
you’d think people would… .uh… KNOW that??? :confused:

Oh well… i should know by now that many people (1 is too many) use these forums to vent their pent-up frustrations &
usually-suppressed anger & resentment on … whomever…

thanks
 
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