Protestants:Doesn't the Bible support the true presense?

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The idea in John 6 of eating the body and and drinking the blood is a metaphor for faith. Have ever heard someone asy, digest this fact, drink it in? The same idea is to be understood when Jesus said in John 6:29, 47 that when one believes they have eternal life. So Jesus was not saying the one it to literally eat Him and drink His blood for that would be cannibalism.
 
**Oh Dear. What a terrible monkeyshine are you trying to teach here, ay?
Such nonsense of cannibalism was volunteered by the narrow minded in Joh 6,52 and Jesus taught them:

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

But who is Jesus compared to our wonderful “DLC” who teaches us a New Testament the DLC-way

Hear hear !

DLC - you are talking a lot of nonsense!

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whimp (Do you know that word?)
No Real. And it was no use to look it up in my dict.
But I think, in this thread are a lot of heathens who’d better go to some forums of how to breed cats or ants.
Why on earth do people at all care about things and try to teach Christians and the Church of somet they don’t know less about than a lunatic does. :coffeeread:**
 
The idea in John 6 of eating the body and and drinking the blood is a metaphor for faith. Have ever heard someone asy, digest this fact, drink it in? The same idea is to be understood when Jesus said in John 6:29, 47 that when one believes they have eternal life. So Jesus was not saying the one it to literally eat Him and drink His blood for that would be cannibalism.
What is the setting John uses before launching into the Bread of Life Discourse … what imagery is John invoking for the reader.

Remember who the audience was … first century Jews … so what would a first century Jew see from John 6:1 to John 6:21, more specifically what OT events are alluded to?
 
The idea in John 6 of eating the body and and drinking the blood is a metaphor for faith. Have ever heard someone asy, digest this fact, drink it in? The same idea is to be understood when Jesus said in John 6:29, 47 that when one believes they have eternal life. So Jesus was not saying the one it to literally eat Him and drink His blood for that would be cannibalism.
That is true, one can indeed digest and imbibe teaching.

And yes, it could be a metaphor.

But do you know why it is not a metaphor?

Because the eating and drinking is not used on its own. It is actually tied to flesh and blood. Eat my flesh. Drink my blood.

And you know what that means to a Jew if he were to understand that figuratively?

To eat ones flesh means to do someone an injury, a calumny.

So if were to insert that understanding into Jesus’s discourse it would go like this: “If you injur me and do me all sort of calumny to me, you will have have eternal life”.

Does that sound like the speech of an intelligent person?

Besides, if he wanted flesh and blood to mean his teaching, his words, He could have easily said that once His disciples started grumbling? But did He do that? No. Instead, He clarified Himself by **repeating several times over **what He has said.

And when they have gone, He did not even explain to those how remained that the others got it wrong.

All He said was : Will you also leave?
 
The idea in John 6 of eating the body and and drinking the blood is a metaphor for faith. … So Jesus was not saying the one it to literally eat Him and drink His blood for that would be cannibalism.
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Hi DLC, 👋

Thank God! Finally a reasonable and intelligent person who understand metaphors:thumbsup: But DLC, you do realize you can’t “eat faith” were you also speaking metaohorically since that isn’t what the verses translate into in English? So since we now realize that you can’t ‘eat’ faith, that couldn’t have been what was meant, could it?
These statements surely were metaphors: The early Christians “devoted themselves to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers” Acts 2:42. They “met to break bread” Acts 20:7. The wording makes it appear that the breaking of bread was the purpose of the meeting and central to their discussions together and unity, doesn’t it? The “Bread of Life” (John 6:23) was a central part of Christian Sunday worship.
You and I can see that these were metaphors for actually eating Jesus’ body and drinking his blood! 👍 But, Jesus actually did said that we must " Eat His Body" . He personally said it 12 times! Others repeated it many more times! Seems like it is “important” that it be done, doesn’t it? He mention obtaining eternal life by doing that didn’t He? “. . . Whoever eats (Greek word : trogon) me will live because of me. . . Also the one who feeds (Same word: trogon) on my flesh will have life . . .” John 6 :48-58

The normal word in Greek for “eat” is* Phagon but in this passage the word Trogon which ‘literally’ means to crunch or gnaw. is used. Why? Only one possible reason DLC, to insure that it wasn’t mistaken for a metaphor. Why, you ask? I will explain but another interesting fact is that the verb tense of Trogon also implies continuous consumption in this case of the body & blood of Christ. :signofcross: There would be a big problem with interpretating eating Jesus Body as a metaphor. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. As Benedictus2 stated to interpret the phrase figuratively would make it read in English something like: “Whoever does serious injury to me and do me all sort of calumny and make false accustions against me, you will have have eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day.”* Now I ask you does verse in the English Language Bible you read read that way? Does it? * Seriously, does that sound like something Jesus would actually say? If you hurt him or lie about Him you would have eternal life! *Or would you think He would say " Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Which ones sounds logical to you? Yes, this is an IQ test! I hope you don’t fail!😃

To make this a metaphor would be make our Lord promise of life everlasting refer only to the culprits who slandered and hated him, which would reduce the entire passage to complete nonsense. For an example of Trogon used to mean "to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation, see Micah 3:3.

Some people foolishly assert that they can show that Jesus was speaking only metaphorically In John 6 abour eating His body by comparing verses like John 10:9 (“I am the door”) and John 15:1 (“I am the true vine”). The problem is that they have no connection to John 6:35, “I am the bread of life.”.
“I am the door” and “I am the vine” make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Jesus takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (John 6:55). He isn’t like a food He is our food of Life!

Some people attempt to impose their personal limits on Jesus’ Divine ability to creat or change things! These same people must say Jesus never changed the water into wine at Cana, or made enough fish and bread to feed around 5000 people. Why couldn’t he change other things? Maybe those stories were only metaphors? :hmmm:
You claimed that to eat Jesus’ “body” that He created would be cannibalism! How dumb is that statement? 🤷 As St. Ambrose said: “If the word of the Lord Jesus is so powerful as to bring into existence things which were not, then *a fortiori *those things which already exist can be changed into something else” (De Sacramentis, IV, 5-16).
By eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist we become united to the actual person of Jesus through his humanity.He tells us so. “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.” John 6:56 In being united to the humanity of Jesus we are at the same time united to his divinity. Our mortal and corruptible natures are transformed by being joined to the source of life. “Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me” John 6:57

DLC Assured that you are smarter then me and knowing that you understand what a metaphor is, I want you to go now and tell all the fools that don’t understand metaphors where they were making their mistake by denying the truth.
God Bless**
 
There is more statements in the Gospels about Jesus having brothers and sisters than there are about eating flesh and drinking blood.

The better question is this. Why does Rome treat the statements regarding the brothers of Jesus as symbolic but accept the statements of flesh and blood as absolutely literal?
Because as I have said before, a figurative interpration of “eat my flesh” just does not work. Plus the fact that if He wanted it to mean something else, He would have re-phrased what He was saying instead of repeating the hard saying over and over again.

With regards brothers and sisters there is proof that brothers and sisters could mean half-sibblings or cousins. We read it as brothers and sisters but this term has a broader meaning in Hebrew and Greek and could be applied without damage to passage.

The same misunderstanding could be said to have been the reason people started interpreting “Thou art Peter…” using terms like little pebble and big rock. All because they didn’t realize that in Aramaicd, that would have simply read “You are rock and upon this rock I will build my church”.
 
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Hajnalcsillag:
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There is more statements in the Gospels about Jesus having brothers and sisters than there are about eating flesh and drinking blood. **

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Hi hajnal, 👋

You aren’t the smart one in your family are you? Its OK, I understand! I am not the smartest one either.😊 But I pretend to be by not making ‘stupid’ statements. That’s just a hint, buddy!
Your Statemant above could be a lie or based on being just plain ignorant. It is hard to tell which! Go check the bible! Do not just say things! That makes it appear as if you are dumb. W e both know you aren’t! I am embarrassed for you 😊
Plus it really doesn’t help your point of view to make false statements! There are dozens of statements in the NT about eating Jesus’ body and drinking His blood. He personally said it Himself 12 times! How many times are brothers and sisters mentioned? You don’t even know do you? :rolleyes: ignorance isn’t excusable, you have a bible read it! You would claim to believe something that is said only four times over something is said dozens of times and then lie about it? They you want to use that lie to prove your point? You really are “special”! :whacky: **

**The better question is this. Why does Rome treat the statements regarding the brothers of Jesus as symbolic **

**They aren’t treated as symbolic! Who said they are except you? That could be considered as another lie. I rather just think you are ignorant to history or customs of other cultures. You don’t get out much do you? Are there supervisors involved?

Like Benedictus2 said “With regards brothers and sisters there is proof that brothers and sisters could mean half-sibblings or cousins. We read it as brothers and sisters but this term has a broader meaning in Hebrew and Greek and could be applied without damage to passage”**

I have been to many countries where this also normal! I will use Korea for an example, just because I lived there for nine years and read write and speak the language. In Korean culture everyone calls each other Sister or Brother. Older women are called Aunt, men Uncle. It has nothing to do with birth rights! It is cultural as it was in Jesus time. All children were raised by the clains so they were brothers and sisters. I am a Knight of Columbus! Guess what we call each other? Yup! Brothers! I have 9,000Bbrothers where I live, and over 1.2 Million Brothers world wide. As a real Christian, in the real Christian church, I have 2.3 Billion Brothers and Sisters in Christ!

You must be hooked upo with one of the really weird groups like the JW to think that Jesus had biological brothers and sisters. Even most of the 61,000 counterfeit groups don’t believe that.Where do you get your religious education the Divinci Code? :rotfl:

but accept the statements of flesh and blood as absolutely literal?

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Because they must be taken absolutely literal! Otherwise they just don’t make sense. IMHO that was done on purpose to insure no misunderstanding was possible. But we know how Satan is, he could convince you that Hell is now air- conditioned so you won’t worry about going there by following all his other lies!:whistle: Jesus actually did said that we must " Eat His Body". He personally said it a dozen times! Others repeated it many more times! That makes it seem like it is “important” that it be done, doesn’t it? He mention obtaining eternal life by doing that didn’t He? “. . . Whoever eats (Greek word : trogon) me will live because of me. . . Also the one who feeds (Same word: trogon) on my flesh will have life . . .” John 6 :48-58 The normal word in Greek for “eat” is Phagon but in this passage the word Trogon which ‘literally’ means to crunch or gnaw. is used. Why? Only one possible reason, to insure that it wasn’t mistaken as being only symbolic. Another interesting fact is that the verb tense of Trogon also implies continuous consumption in this case of the body & blood of Christ. So we must eat His Body and Drink His Blood often. That nurishes our souls!

“Eat me. I am the bread of the strong. But you will not transform Me and make Me part of you. Rather, I will transform you and make you part of ME”- St Augustine

Do some reading Hajnalcsillag, ignorance is curable it only takes education. Stupidity is forever! One half our population is below average in intelligence! You aren’t one of them!

You are in my prayers. Hopefully the Blessed Mother will carry my prayers to her son for you!

BENEDICTUS2, Sweetheart, Today at Mass I remembered to write your name and foot in the Book of Healing. Every Mass from now on will be for that purpose, You will be up and dancing in no time! 😃

God Bless
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**BENEDICTUS2, Sweetheart, Today at Mass I remembered to write your name and foot in the Book of Healing. Every Mass from now on will be for that purpose, You will be up and dancing in no time! 😃 **
Petal, thank you so very much for that. God is so wonderful.
 

It means that lack of valid sacraments need not stop a Church being a means of salvation. IOW, God can save through the Lutheran Churches.​

I agree … God can save and use any mechanism available … and He does.
IOW - God is not the prisoner or puppet or poodle of the Pope. He does not need Rome’s permission or agreement to act as God - He is is not a tribal fetish, & His faithfulness to Church X as promised, does not imply, & is not to be construed as, lack of activity among Churches Y to W.
You have it backwards … by Jesus’s acknowledgment of Peter’s primacy and the power given to bind and loose … God entrusted His power to His church on earth. The Church does not say God do this or God do that but rather God gave certain authority to be used for the building of His kingdom on earth. The caveat being where much is given much is required.
Where Catholics go wrong is in taking for granted (on insufficient grounds) that God’s faithfulness to the CC must imply absence from any other Church.
Absence of what … the only thing that matters is grace and Catholics don’t imply or believe grace does not exist outside of the Church.

The goal of any believer is to become rich and clothed in sanctifying grace … that is why the Catholic Church is a sacramental Church … the spigots of sanctifying grace are available in abundance in the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist.

God makes these spigots available to all … though not all receive. When Jesus said He wants us to have life and have it in abundance … He is talking of sanctifying grace for that is the sharing of His divine life … the place to be is the place where one finds this sanctifying grace in abundance.
 
**It really is surprising, that those who think Jesus was talking about somet else than what Jesus actually said, that those keep arguing with those who understood Jesus right.

It’s like our oldest son Axel when he 1973 came home from kindergarten, and argued, that “Mother Hulda’s” name is not Hulda but Rolle. In German Mother Hulda is Frau Holle. To him it was Frau Rolle. Whatever we said – it was all in vain, for he argued Miss whatshername, had said Frau Rolle and Miss whatshername is always right.

OK we finally agreed to be relieved.

I the case of the (let me see – oh it’s now 21% here who think “Jesus did not really say the Bread is His Body and the Wine His Blood” we might leave them believing whatever they want. They’ll anyhow never understand. So what?! Let them. They’ll see one day anyhow!

Axel is 40 now and he got the right name of that Lady Holle. But whilst he 1973 argued the old crow’s name was Rolle instead of Holle, he already knew perfectly well and understood that Jesus is physically present when we eat and drink the consecrated bread and wine (WHICH WHEN CONSECRATED IS NO LONGER SIMPLY BREAD AN WINE, BUT JESUS FLESH AND BLOOD) which our increasing 21% never will understand. Poor things - how should they :o
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**It was “difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to them”, said the statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. **
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To Realcatholicgk

Such articles as you refer to by one Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D. can only be from the pen of Satan. Your posts are rude and blasphemous - not even reflecting official Catholic teachings; let alone a correct understanding of Protestant beliefs.
 
Hi, Hajnalcsillag,

This is basically an incorrect statement.
There is more statements in the Gospels about Jesus having brothers and sisters than there are about eating flesh and drinking blood.
If your statement was to identify focus or emphasis on two unrelated topics (Real Presence vs Relatives of Jesus) let’s just take a look at this idea and how it was developed by God throught the Inspired Writers. The following few references are just a small sample of what can be given the Scripturally support the Real Presence. (If you are interested, here is a link that may be helpful and that I used as and edited as a reference: scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html )

For Real Presence there are the following statments in the NT:
1.) John 6:4,11-14 - on the eve of the Passover, Jesus performs the miracle of multiplying the loaves. This was prophesied in the Old Testament (e.g., 2 Kings4:43), and foreshadows the infinite heavenly bread which is Him.

2.) Matt. 14:19, 15:36; Mark 6:41, 8:6; Luke 9:16 - these passages are additional accounts of the multiplication miracles. This points to the Eucharist.

3.) Matt. 16:12 - in this verse, Jesus explains His metaphorical use of the term “bread.” In John 6, He eliminates any metaphorical possibilities.

4.) John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten. Look what He says.

5.) John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times “I AM the bread from heaven.” It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.

6.) John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this “new” bread which must be consumed.

7.) John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

8.) John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass.

9.) John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “Phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus’ literal usage of “eat.” So Jesus does what?

10.) John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch.
The better question is this. Why does Rome treat the statements regarding the brothers of Jesus as symbolic but accept the statements of flesh and blood as absolutely literal?
This too is a a misstatement. A symbol is something that stands for somethign else. For example, Protestants believe that Christ is symbolically present in the Eucharist while Catholics - supported by Scripture and Tradition believe that Christ is litterally present: Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.

Here is another reference: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-V

1.) Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

2.) Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

3.) Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

4.) John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

5.) John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

6.) John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

7.) Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

8.) Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

M 9.) ark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

10.) Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

I hope this helps. Basically, the Catholic Church is totally focused on Jesus Christ and His Word. Christ said “This is my Body…” and this is what we believe. In my opinion, items such as ‘cousin’ and ‘brother’ are red-herrings intended to leading the curious away for what really matters: Christ present on the altar - Christ Alive in His Church.

God bless
 
**The question of brothers-german of Jesus, is served over and over again. The reason behind: Spreading doubts. Unconsciously so in cooperation with hell; as one and only aim of hell is: Make heaven unbelievable.

Everyone who knows at least fragments of the Bible, knows that Jesus called all His brothers, who followed Him and His word. Jesus himself said so in Mt 12,48 - Mt 12,49 - Mk 3,34 – and in Lk 8,21 He said: Brothers of mine are all those, who hear God’s word and put it into practice.

How on earth could any thinking person get the idea, that Holy Mary, who was chosen by God and given the grace of God to serve as Theotocos in God’s incredible grace giving birth to Jesus (who is God) – ever would have the idea to have other children. Unthinkable.

Thinkable only to those, who consider Holy Mary simply as one of any woman. She was not and she is not.
Holy Mary was honoured by God Himself. How could we dare not to revere and admire her. How could anyone imagine Holy Mary could possibly have another child.

Those who do not understand this, will never understand, and further explanations are in vain.

To those who deny all reason:
In Hebrew, Aramaic, Greece, “brothers” are all distant relatives. Match e.g. Genesis 13,8 - 14,14 - 24,48 and many others.
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So let me ask you this. Do you follow what He commands or do you also pick and choose?

You said you could never follow a church that follows man and deny’s the Lord. But when you pick and choose to follow only those commands that suit you, then YOU ARE DENYING THE LORD.
Kind of like the Catholics who ignore the fourth and the seventh commandments.
 
Kind of like the Catholics who ignore the fourth and the seventh commandments.
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Hi Protestant, 👋

Whos? Your’s or Ours? Every one disobeys commandments that is called SIN buddy! Only Protestants disobey Jesus’s commandments and follow an Idol they call the KJV. Some groups eat the pages as their communion I thinkl they say the Words are what he meant when He commanded

god Bless **
 
Kind of like the Catholics who ignore the fourth and the seventh commandments.
Nope. Catholics still disobedience to the 10 commandments as sin. But Protestants. Well, they’ve struck out adultery by allowing divorce. Then there’s the allowing of contraception, gay marriages, homosexual sex.

But what can you expect of churches not guided by the Holy Spirit. These transgressions are really just par for the course.🙂
 
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