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Joe_Kelley
Guest
IAs I recall there were secular reporters there who wrote it up for the media.
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Ginger2
Guest
Can you reference just one secular news article? All I have been able to find so far are claims that secular news media wrote their eyewitness reports.
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EeyoresButerfly
Guest
I really don’t agree with the spirit of the opening post. Speaking as a former Protestant, I would like to make a suggestion/observation: These kinds of confrontational “questions” are more likely to push somebody further away from Catholicism (or any religion) than bring them to it. I certainly would have had a very negative view of Catholicism after reading what appears to be a confrontational “trump card” so to speak.
As others have said, there are miracles in almost every religion that have been witnessed by many people, but you don’t necessarily see that as proof that their’s is right and our’s is wrong. There are many non-miracle explanations for Fatima.
Even though I am Catholic, I am very reserved in my opinion of Fatima. I don’t know what to believe, and since I am not required to believe it, I don’t give it much though to be honest. But it is possible for Fatima to be a product of astronomical phenomenon and mass hysteria. Yes 70,000 people (many non-Catholics) saw the same thing, but they were all there expecting to see it. Group hallucinations are not unheard of, but are poorly understood. However, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. It also seems that I have read somewhere (I am trying to find it) that there is controversy surrounding their description of Mary because instead of the traditional garb associated with Mary, she was dressed in a more modern fashion that was considered immodest and possibly heretical. (As soon as I find the reference, I will post it).
As others have said, there are miracles in almost every religion that have been witnessed by many people, but you don’t necessarily see that as proof that their’s is right and our’s is wrong. There are many non-miracle explanations for Fatima.
Even though I am Catholic, I am very reserved in my opinion of Fatima. I don’t know what to believe, and since I am not required to believe it, I don’t give it much though to be honest. But it is possible for Fatima to be a product of astronomical phenomenon and mass hysteria. Yes 70,000 people (many non-Catholics) saw the same thing, but they were all there expecting to see it. Group hallucinations are not unheard of, but are poorly understood. However, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. It also seems that I have read somewhere (I am trying to find it) that there is controversy surrounding their description of Mary because instead of the traditional garb associated with Mary, she was dressed in a more modern fashion that was considered immodest and possibly heretical. (As soon as I find the reference, I will post it).
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
You probably have to consult the archives of the Lisbon papers. [Do brush up your Portugese.]
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Ginger2
Guest
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E.E.N.S
Guest
October 13, 1917(1)
Here are briefly the facts; starting from the day after the events, by a reporter who cannotpossibly be accused of partiality in this matter and for a good reason! We refer to Avelino deAlmeida, the chief editor of “O Seculo,” the large “liberal” anticlerical and masonic daily ofLisbon. He writes,
“From the road, where the carriages were crowded together and where hundreds of persons hadstayed for want of sufficient courage to advance across the muddy ground, we saw the hugecrowd turn towards the sun which appeared at its zenith, clear of the clouds. It resembled a flatplate of silver, and it was possible to stare at it without the least discomfort. It did not burn theeyes. It did not blind. We would say that it produced an eclipse. Then a tremendous cry rang out,and the crowd nearest us were heard to shout: “Miracle! Miracle!..Marvel!..Marvel!” Before thedazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who,dumb-founded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it madestrange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, “the sun danced”, accordingto the typical expression of the peasants…(2)”
For the rest, click here.
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Ginger2
Guest
Pardon me for just a moment…
How do you know, almost a century later, that this was a liberal paper and couldn’t possibly be a Catholic publication or at least have Catholics controlling the content?
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E.E.N.S
Guest
That was the quote from the link - not me. Therefore I am not the one to ask.
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Ginger2
Guest
Too bad. I’ve been reading a lot of Portugueses history and was setting you up.That was the quote from the link - not me. Therefore I am not the one to ask.
There are Websites that explain that o Seculo is positively a liberal secular publication. But their evidence is blatantly false.
I expected you to come back with an obvious error to support the claim.
After which I would have squashed you like a bug.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
I am not that squashable.Too bad. I’ve been reading a lot of Portugueses history and was setting you up.
There are Websites that explain that o Seculo is positively a liberal secular publication. But their evidence is blatantly false.
I expected you to come back with an obvious error to support the claim.
After which I would have squashed you like a bug.
Actually, I have read a little about Fatima, but I am by no means well versed in it, I merely saw the thread and took a peek. I am fully confident in the Church, however, to make the claims she does in this area, (hence the level of resilience with regards to squashability.)
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Valke2
Guest
I’d like to see that actaul Talmud page. Because from what I know, the Talmud in that instance is saying that if one is living in a center of learning, a Torah Center, he should not leave that place to go to Israel. It is generally acceptred that this Talmud portion was written about the time of the beginnings of the diaspora. It also says that one should not leave Israel to go to other lands. This is quite a different interpetation than the one you are offering.
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Ginger2
Guest
I like a challenge.
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pauliztarza
Guest
Because He keeps them from being tricked by the devil in for of an apparition.
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
“A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign” quote by Jesus. We don’t need one to validate our faith. “The best you get is…” Well, I would say that healing miraculously and God helping you pay the bills is quite extraordinary and all I need to know that God is real.
Peace…
MW
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ncgolf
Guest
Nah … it’s because your eyes are closed.
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abucs
Guest
Portugal
A first wave of anti-clericalism occurred in 1834 when under the government of Dom Pedro all convents and monasteries in Portugal were abolished, simultaneously closing some of Portugal’s primary educational establishments. The fall of the Monarchy in the Republican revolution of 1910 led to another wave of anti-clerical activity. Most church property was put under State control, and the church was not allowed to inherit property. The wearing of religious garb and religious instruction in schools were abolished, as well as religious oaths and church taxes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-clericalism
books.google.com/books?id=LjLQwToInS4C&pg=PA611&lpg=PA611&dq=anti+clerical+portugal&source=web&ots=QbZrodhBE9&sig=7wDvAAnBbdaJl50KnNKn9EyEI3U#PPA611,M1
We have to remember that Portugal was the first country to install a Soviet government. As such, the press was owned by the atheistic anti-religious government who had publicly declared that they would make an end to religion in 2 generations. Apart from the anti clerical press there that day (who had made fun of the whole episode up until that day) were the state authorities and government soldiers who were recruited to keep people away.
Nobody knew what the miracle was going to be. There were many atheists and scientists there taking precautions not to get caught up with things.
By accounts, Lucia pointed to the sky and the clouds parted straight away to reveal the light. There was no background clouds and sundogs stand stationary and don’t revolve in all kinds of lights and then plunge to earth.
A University professor eye witness estimated that the crowd was 100,000 and there were many people within a 40 mile radius that also saw it although they had not bothered to go.
We have to remember that the government was very anti religious at the time and had ridiculed the idea of a miracle.
A good book to get is ‘Meet the Witnesses’ by John Haffet in which you will read the testimony from eye witnesses from a broad range of backgrounds.
If this was of the devil then why did it happen ? The communist government was in dissaray after the event with 1/70th of the nation witnessing the event.
The government retreated into bombing pilgrams and demolishing the site and ended up in internal warefare that brought down the communist government less than 10 years later.
The communists made a comeback in 1974 and the peoples revolt threw them out again shortly afterwards.
A first wave of anti-clericalism occurred in 1834 when under the government of Dom Pedro all convents and monasteries in Portugal were abolished, simultaneously closing some of Portugal’s primary educational establishments. The fall of the Monarchy in the Republican revolution of 1910 led to another wave of anti-clerical activity. Most church property was put under State control, and the church was not allowed to inherit property. The wearing of religious garb and religious instruction in schools were abolished, as well as religious oaths and church taxes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-clericalism
books.google.com/books?id=LjLQwToInS4C&pg=PA611&lpg=PA611&dq=anti+clerical+portugal&source=web&ots=QbZrodhBE9&sig=7wDvAAnBbdaJl50KnNKn9EyEI3U#PPA611,M1
We have to remember that Portugal was the first country to install a Soviet government. As such, the press was owned by the atheistic anti-religious government who had publicly declared that they would make an end to religion in 2 generations. Apart from the anti clerical press there that day (who had made fun of the whole episode up until that day) were the state authorities and government soldiers who were recruited to keep people away.
Nobody knew what the miracle was going to be. There were many atheists and scientists there taking precautions not to get caught up with things.
By accounts, Lucia pointed to the sky and the clouds parted straight away to reveal the light. There was no background clouds and sundogs stand stationary and don’t revolve in all kinds of lights and then plunge to earth.
A University professor eye witness estimated that the crowd was 100,000 and there were many people within a 40 mile radius that also saw it although they had not bothered to go.
We have to remember that the government was very anti religious at the time and had ridiculed the idea of a miracle.
A good book to get is ‘Meet the Witnesses’ by John Haffet in which you will read the testimony from eye witnesses from a broad range of backgrounds.
If this was of the devil then why did it happen ? The communist government was in dissaray after the event with 1/70th of the nation witnessing the event.
The government retreated into bombing pilgrams and demolishing the site and ended up in internal warefare that brought down the communist government less than 10 years later.
The communists made a comeback in 1974 and the peoples revolt threw them out again shortly afterwards.
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abucs
Guest
I think if God wanted to make a point large enough to be recognised but not to supercede faith then this would be a pretty good plan.
Just before the advent of mass media, during the horrors of trench warfare of World War 1 a few hundred kilometres away, with 1/70 of the population of the first communist anti religious nation witnessing, including the intelligentsia of whom religion was in no way respected; a system of government that was just established and would shape the politics of the next 70 years and cause huge misery throughout Asia and Russuan states, persecution of the church and millions of deaths.
Mary appearing to children who are barely just out of their infancy who stand up to the jail and death threats of a communist system and ultimately bring it down.
The call to prayer and penance just before the slow slide of religion of the last century and rampant materialism and self satisfaction of our culture.
Sounds like God to me.
Praise the Lord.
Just before the advent of mass media, during the horrors of trench warfare of World War 1 a few hundred kilometres away, with 1/70 of the population of the first communist anti religious nation witnessing, including the intelligentsia of whom religion was in no way respected; a system of government that was just established and would shape the politics of the next 70 years and cause huge misery throughout Asia and Russuan states, persecution of the church and millions of deaths.
Mary appearing to children who are barely just out of their infancy who stand up to the jail and death threats of a communist system and ultimately bring it down.
The call to prayer and penance just before the slow slide of religion of the last century and rampant materialism and self satisfaction of our culture.
Sounds like God to me.
Praise the Lord.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Cute line but one would best not be flippant about sacred things. Note Matthew 12:22-35
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Kaninchen
Guest
Nope.
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Herbert
Guest
Protestant miracle:
A friend of mine who is protestant was a nurse at a protestant Christian boarding school. One day a student collapsed and was taken to hospital - she went with him in the ambulance.
At the hospital the doctors found a massive inoperable tumor spread through his brain. The prognosis? No hope. Death in a short time.
The parents flew in, and the doctors took multiple more brain scans to further evaluate and document the tumor. The distraught parents arrived with time to bid their beloved son goodbye.
Over the next few days the doctors took more scans of the tumor, but never had any hope for a recovery.
Back at the school, the students were informed of the tragic at the school assembly. A few of them spontaneously suggested they pray for their schoolmate.
As it happened, the boy did not die when the doctors expected. He simply kept on going. After a while, quite unexpectedly, he began to improve. The doctors were understandably quite flummoxed.
As the boy kept improving, the doctors determined to take another scan of his brain. To their great shock, they could find no evidence of a brain tumor present. After a further period of evaluation they released him from hospital into the care of his overjoyed parents.
He later told the nurse, “I prayed to God and asked Him to show me a miracle.”
So…given the contention that the Fatima example proves Catholicism right and others wrong, does that then mean that this miracle above, quite spectacular as it is, proves that Protestantism is right and Catholicism wrong?
Or could it be that the thread started off on the wrong track and maybe God is a weee bit bigger and more ecumenical than his own followers are?
Maybe He’s even big enough to be above our all too human squabbles.
A friend of mine who is protestant was a nurse at a protestant Christian boarding school. One day a student collapsed and was taken to hospital - she went with him in the ambulance.
At the hospital the doctors found a massive inoperable tumor spread through his brain. The prognosis? No hope. Death in a short time.
The parents flew in, and the doctors took multiple more brain scans to further evaluate and document the tumor. The distraught parents arrived with time to bid their beloved son goodbye.
Over the next few days the doctors took more scans of the tumor, but never had any hope for a recovery.
Back at the school, the students were informed of the tragic at the school assembly. A few of them spontaneously suggested they pray for their schoolmate.
As it happened, the boy did not die when the doctors expected. He simply kept on going. After a while, quite unexpectedly, he began to improve. The doctors were understandably quite flummoxed.
As the boy kept improving, the doctors determined to take another scan of his brain. To their great shock, they could find no evidence of a brain tumor present. After a further period of evaluation they released him from hospital into the care of his overjoyed parents.
He later told the nurse, “I prayed to God and asked Him to show me a miracle.”
So…given the contention that the Fatima example proves Catholicism right and others wrong, does that then mean that this miracle above, quite spectacular as it is, proves that Protestantism is right and Catholicism wrong?
Or could it be that the thread started off on the wrong track and maybe God is a weee bit bigger and more ecumenical than his own followers are?
Maybe He’s even big enough to be above our all too human squabbles.
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