Protestants Honoring Mary

[Peterdiago]

The name “Lutheran” was given to us by the Roman Catholics.

So why keep it if it doesn’t fit?

Luther also had no intention of breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church.

Other than rejecting several key doctrines.

In fact, if you read up on Luther, he disagreed more with some of the teachings of the other “protestants” than he did with the Roman Church.

Yes, he did - but this does not make his teachings Catholic.

The simple fact of the matter is is that if you are not Catholic or Orthodox yet are Christian you are Protestant. Your very church is named after the founder of the Reformation and is a break-away movement from the RCC.

I really don’t know what else to say - you are a Protestant. Sorry

 

[Mariner1]

So why keep it if it doesn’t fit?

Other than rejecting several key doctrines.

Yes, he did - but this does not make his teachings Catholic.

The simple fact of the matter is is that if you are not Catholic or Orthodox yet are Christian you are Protestant. Your very church is named after the founder of the Reformation and is a break-away movement from the RCC.

I really don’t know what else to say - you are a Protestant. Sorry

He did not break away…he was kicked out…big difference. It appears we will continue to disagree on this point and I can live with that. But I would be interested in knowing how it is the Anglicans are “in between.”

 

[Peterdiago]

He did not break away…he was kicked out…big difference. It appears we will continue to disagree on this point and I can live with that. But I would be interested in knowing how it is the Anglicans are “in between.”

He was kicked out because he broke away! He was kicked out because he taught heresy - he made a choice to deny the truths of the faith.

You seem to suggest that it was the action of a Pope or Cardinal telling Luther that he couldn’t be Catholic any more despite the fact he had done nothing wrong. Quite the opposite. Luther might have WANTED to stay in the Church, but he could not as he had denied several of the key doctrines of it.

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides are lies and heresies against the Church - Luther might have wanted to stay in the Church and have them believe that, but it was never going to happen. And he really knew that.

As for the Anglicans, a study of the history involved shows why. Henry VIII was strongly against Luther (writing “In Defence of the Sacraments” against him) and only broke from Rome because he wanted a divorce. But, he left the structure of the Church much unchanged and did not alter the theology except the idea of Petrine Primacy.

It was his children - Mary, Edward and Elizabeth - who carved the place up and started the wars. Anglicanism does not split from the same split as the rest of Protestantism (the reformation). It happens separately, and for very different reasons. Although Anglicanism takes on a lot of the Protestant ideas after a few years, it was no conceived as that sort of thing at all.

 

[Alexius]

True, but I don’t know any Protestants who believe that Mary would not be a Saint by either the Protestant or Catholic definitions: Mary’s soul glorifies the Lord and her spirit rejoices in God her Savior.

In the evangelical traditions I grew up in, the Theotokos was mentioned about as often as Judas Iscariot or Matthias (not very often, but occasionally). She certainly was not the Mother of God, as this implied that she was the origin of God. That she had other children as well, there was little doubt. I did not hear of the Assumption or Immaculate Conception until years later. Since these were not “bible-based,” but rather “man-made,” none of them were accepted. Even this school year I received a surprised reaction from a teacher when I used the phrase “Mother of God.” She was certainly not offended as she is Anglo-Catholic, but she told me that she has never heard that term used at school before (it is an evangelical school where most of the teachers have Calvinist leanings).

Certainly many evangelical Protestants respect the Theotokos, but they do not realize and return her love - the love she as our spiritual mother possesses - they do not realize that this love is not worship like the adoration we give to God.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Damascus]

He did not break away.

He broke with the Church even after repeated attempts on the Church’s part to help him see his folly.

…he was kicked out…big difference.

He was excommunicated. If that was not bad enough, he formed a religion that is Schismatic and lacks apostolic succession, valid sacraments (all 2 of them invalid) and he married a Nun. This man is the man who your faith is proud enough of to keep his name on the top of your church and your Catechism, all 20 pages or so of it.

It appears we will continue to disagree on this point and I can live with that. But I would be interested in knowing how it is the Anglicans are "in between."

I am wondering how you can “live with that” so easily.

The following link you should read used to be my signature line. Obviously it needs to get back on again.

Dont worry., I did not know any of this either when I was a Schismatic Lutheran. They did not tell me all of THIS:

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/catechism.htm

Unfortunately- the links in this site are connected to yet another schismatic site. This document however, is not schismatic so my disclaimer is that I only endorse this document that pops up when you click it as not schismatic.

 

[Damascus]

The name “Lutheran” was given to us by the Roman Catholics. Luther also had no intention of breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, if you read up on Luther, he disagreed more with some of the teachings of the other “protestants” than he did with the Roman Church.

Misinformation. Please read the link I provided - here I will post it again-

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/catechism.htm

The same disclaimer as I stated earlier.

 

[rr1213]

As a Lutheran who prays the rosary, I can’t speak for others who call themselves Protestant. Remember, Lutherans are NOT Protestants, we’re in between.

To the contrary, Lutherans are the original Protestants 16th Century. In today’s world, you are probably in between Catholics and evangelicals (for example, the Lutheran belief in baptismal regeneration and the Real Presence at the Eucharist are more Catholic than evangelical).

 

[rr1213]

The simple fact of the matter is is that if you are not Catholic or Orthodox yet are Christian you are Protestant.(

In one sense, yes. In another sense, that is really an oversimplification of non-Catholic Christianity.

 

[Eden]

Mariner1 says he prays the Rosary. I think we Catholics should be heartened by this. Let’s leave the discussion about who is and is not Protestant to another thread, O.K.?

 

[lak611]

Mariner1 says he prays the Rosary. I think we Catholics should be heartened by this. Let’s leave the discussion about who is and is not Protestant to another thread, O.K.?

Yes, I agree.:tiphat:

 

[jmcrae]

With regard to the honouring of Mary - it might be worthwhile for Protestants to think about the “mere humans” that they do honour.

For example, they have erected a number of statues of Abraham Lincoln, and dedicate a day of the year in his honour.

They also have 'Martin Luther King Junior" day, and recordings of his famous speeches are available to be downloaded in several places, and also memorized and recited by school children.

I often see the name of a Protestant pastor lit up on the marquee outside of his church.

On Mother’s Day, most Protestant families make a great production of giving flowers to their Moms, and taking her out for a special meal or other event.

Is the honour that you give to Mary anything like the honour that you give to dead presidents, civil rights workers, or even members of your own church and family?

If not, then why not? Is what Mary did (saying “Yes” to the angel and agreeing to give birth to the Son of God Incarnate, preventing Herod from killing him, and raising him safely to adulthood) less important to the history and progress of humanity than what Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King Jr. did?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Never in my days as a Protestant did I ever witness a Protestant honoring Mary what so ever. Even Christmas it was about the Baby Jesus…

 

[Titus03]

It is written in the bible that Enoch never died, he was taken up into heaven to be with God. A man who never experienced death. Elijah, too, was taken up in a chariot of fire, and never experienced death. These truly must have been great men of God.

It is written that David was a “Man after God’s own heart.” How I long to be a man after God’s very own heart.

Moses was blessed enough to lead the Lord’s people out of bondage. Aaron was the very first levitcal priest!

Sarah gave birth at an age when it is nigh on impossible for women to give birth.

Lazarus was given the gift of life, as Christ brought him back from the dead days after his death.

All these people are blessed, and every generation after them would declare it so. Find me someone who would claim these men and women weren’t blessed, with a clear conscience. Yet, because it says that Mary was, “Blessed among women,” this means that she is higher than these others?

I, as a non-Catholic, honor Mary as I do these others. They are all great figures that we can learn from. They were blessed with experiences we might not be blessed with, Mary especially. I won’t go to an altar made for her, for as far as I know, altars are made for worship. Am I mistaken? Do any of you make altars for your television? Do you make altars for your favorite movie stars, just to honor them? Whenever I see an altar in the bible, or in the world for that matter, it is for worship. Say what you will.

I am in no way belittling Mary, she was blessed, she gave birth to God’s own Son. Not God, God’s Son. I am not negating Jesus’ divinity, and while He was God, he also was not. God knows everything, but Jesus said Himself that he knew not the time of his return to earth, only his Father knew. So, there is a clear distinction between the Father and the Son, though they’re still One. This is tough for our finite minds to comprehend, and it is not the point of my discussion, so I ask that for the sake of getting my point across, you please do not use this as a standing for rebuke.

Mary was given a great privilege, she was the vessel that brought forth our Messiah, but she was only a vessel, a clay vessel like us all. Mary sinned, and needed a savior like the rest of us. If Mary had not sinned, she could have been our Savior, but she needed the Messiah just as we all do.

Read Mark 3:31-35. They tell Jesus that his mother and brethren are looking for Him. Does He jump at the chance to see her? I am not saying that Jesus did not love His mother, He loves us all with a passion that we can never comprehend on this side of Heaven, but he put Mary in the category with the rest of us. “Who is my mother or my brethren?..For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”

He is not belittling her, by any means, but He loves her as He loves you! He died for her on the cross as He died for you! He interceded for her before his Father as He now intercedes for me and you! We are his brothers, his sisters, his mothers. We, who do the will of God, we are the ones he loves!

 

[Montalban]

Inevitably in discussions with Protestants about the Virgin Mary we come to the point when Catholics point out Luke 1:48 “all generations shall call me blessed”. This is the point at which our Protestant members, without fail, pull back from their attacks on Mary and incredulously reply, “Well, we do honor Mary. The difference is that Catholics worship Mary”.

When I ask for clarification on how exactly Protestants honor Mary, I can never get a clear answer. One poster stated that he honors Mary in the same way the he honors his own deceased mother in that he smiles when he thinks about her. I don’t understand this answer.

Clearly, “generations shall call me blessed” speaks to the uniqueness of the Mother of God , no matter how holy one’s own mother may be.

So, can anyone give me a legitimate example of how they, in their Protestant tradition, honor Mary?

Mary is unique, but Catholics have a different focus, believing that she was conceived sinless

There’s ‘blessing’, and there’s ‘blessing’. Over doing it doesn’t benefit Mary

 

[Frost]

That is Lady Day - it’s a Catholic celebration you stole from us

No, we simply kept on celebrating it after the Church in our country was reformed. We didn’t “steal” anything, we held on to what was already ours.

And even if we did “steal” it, I don’t see any reason for Catholics to be upset about it

 

[Eden]

It is written in the bible that Enoch never died, he was taken up into heaven to be with God. A man who never experienced death. Elijah, too, was taken up in a chariot of fire, and never experienced death. These truly must have been great men of God.

Then why to you object to the Assumption of Mary?

It is written that David was a “Man after God’s own heart.” How I long to be a man after God’s very own heart.

Moses was blessed enough to lead the Lord’s people out of bondage. Aaron was the very first levitcal priest!

Sarah gave birth at an age when it is nigh on impossible for women to give birth.

Lazarus was given the gift of life, as Christ brought him back from the dead days after his death.

All these people are blessed, and every generation after them would declare it so. Find me someone who would claim these men and women weren’t blessed, with a clear conscience.

None of these holy figures had the direct role in bringing the Word made flesh into the world. Mary had a unique role in God’s plan of Salvation that noone before or after her will ever have again. There is only one Mother of God.

Yet, because it says that Mary was, “Blessed among women,” this means that she is higher than these others?

It is not because Scriptures tells us she is “Blessed among women” or that Mary herself in Scriptures says “generations will call me blessed” that she is “higher” than others. It is because she was chosen from all others to bear the Word made flesh and is the Mother of God. But Protestants tend to want to know “where is that in the Bible”? So, it is useful to point to these passages when dialoguing with you.

I, as a non-Catholic, honor Mary as I do these others. They are all great figures that we can learn from. They were blessed with experiences we might not be blessed with, Mary especially.

I have pointed this out in previous posts, but this illustrates my suspicions about the Protestant viewpoint which seems to mainly come from a feeling that because Mary’s special status in the role of the plan of Salvation is unattainable by the rest of us, it is thus, to be envied. You will not be blessed with the experiences Mary was - ever. It’s not that you might not be blessed with her experiences, you will never be blessed with her experiences - ever. You will never carry the Savior in your womb or be asked by the Father to do so. The Blessed Virgin knew Christ during His time on earth in a way noone else ever will at any time in history.

I won’t go to an altar made for her, for as far as I know, altars are made for worship. Am I mistaken? Do any of you make altars for your television? Do you make altars for your favorite movie stars, just to honor them? Whenever I see an altar in the bible, or in the world for that matter, it is for worship. Say what you will.

An altar is a structure for religious purposes, not specifically worship. The patron saint of a particular church is usually found on a side altar in Catholic churches, as well. When a loved relative of yours dies, do you not put flowers and pictures and other memorial objects at their gravestone? Is that worshipping your ancestors? Do you not put pictures around your house of loved ones no longer with you? Is that worship? What you fail to see is that Catholics believe we are a part of a holy and saintly family. We do not see honoring them, their memory if that helps with the analogy, as being worship any more than someone who leaves flowers and pictures at a gravesite of a loved one would.

 

[Eden]

I am in no way belittling Mary, she was blessed, she gave birth to God’s own Son. Not God, God’s Son. I am not negating Jesus’ divinity, and while He was God, he also was not.

It is a shocking statement that you are making to assert that Jesus was both God and not a mystery. That is heresy of the highest order. He was fully human and fully divine. The Blessed Trinity is a mystery. But one aspect of that Trinity is not. And that is, that Jesus was fully human and fully divine. True God and True Man. He was not a half-god like an ancient Greek mythological figure.

Mary was given a great privilege, she was the vessel that brought forth our Messiah, but she was only a vessel, a clay vessel like us all.

You are again emphasizing my theory that Protestants reject Mary’s and her unique role in the plan of Salvation because they feel diminished by her uniqueness. This is very sad.

Mary sinned, and needed a savior like the rest of us. If Mary had not sinned, she could have been our Savior, but she needed the Messiah just as we all do.

The Catholic Church does not teach that she did not need a Savior. Of course she did. But she was saved in a unique way by her Son. In anticipation of her role as the Mother of God, she was conceived without sin (the Immaculate Conception). If you do not believe that it is possible for Mary to have been saved by Christ before He even died and was Resurrected, ask yourself, how could Mary have been “Full of Grace” at the time of the Annunciation when the Angel Gabriel greeted her. How can one have sin on their soul and yet be “full” of grace. The Greek word used in the original Scriptures is “kecharitomene”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. This Greek word “kecharitomene” or “full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14. Not Enoch, not Lazarus, not any of the other holy figures you mentioned previously.

Read Mark 3:31-35.

Please visit www.scripturecatholic.com. Your misunderstanding of this passage is a typical error made by Protestants when reading it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

Reference:

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IX

We are his brothers, his sisters, his mothers. We, who do the will of God, we are the ones he loves!

Again, the unique role of Mary does not diminish your role as God’s beloved child. Your statement here continues to highlight your fear that if one honors Mary as having a special role, you are less loved by the Father. This couldn’t be any less true. Mary has a very gentle and special way of bringing us to her Son and He wants us to have recourse to her. I know that this is a difficult idea for a Protestant to understand. I can only say that the Blessed Virgin has never failed to intercede for me when I have been in desperate need. I always pray to Jesus or God the Father to help me. But when I feel my petition is most urgent and I need all the prayers I can get, I go to the Blessed Mother, too. She takes my human and imperfect petitions and presents them in a special and pure way to her Son. On this earth, if I would have asked Mary to tell me about her Son, she would have had a unique perspective to share with me. It’s still the same now that she is in Heaven.

 

[Eden]

Mary is unique, but Catholics have a different focus, believing that she was conceived sinless

There’s ‘blessing’, and there’s ‘blessing’. Over doing it doesn’t benefit Mary

Was it “over doing it” when the Angel Gabriel greeted Mary at the Annunciation by saying that she was “Full of Grace”? What does “full” mean to you? How can one be “full” of grace and yet still have room in their soul for sin to reside? The word used in the Greek is “kecharitomene” - a very strong word, which I already posted about. How is it that Mary was without sin at the Annunciation, except that she was saved by Christ in anticipation of the plan of Salvation? That is very unique to say the least. You are stating something against the Word of God when you assert that Mary was anything less than “Full of Grace”.

 

[Eden]

No, we simply kept on celebrating it after the Church in our country was reformed. We didn’t “steal” anything, we held on to what was already ours.

And even if we did “steal” it, I don’t see any reason for Catholics to be upset about it

I’m not upset in the least bit. The fact that saints’ feasts like Santa Lucia Day are still celebrated in Scandanavia is beautiful, too. But I pray for the day that you return to the Catholic Church and leave Luther’s religion in the dust bin of history.

 

[Ignatius]

How? We speak well of her, she was a bold young woman who was blessed by God in a very special way. She has a special day in the Lutheran liturgical calendar (March 25th), where we remember and celebrate the day God announced to her that she was going to be the mother of God. We also spend a lot of time thinking and talking about her during Christmas.

The difference between Catholics and Lutherans is that Lutherans don’t ask Virgin Mary to pray for them.
.

Isn’t the Hail Mary prayed on the Lutheran Rosary?