Protestants, how are you certain your sins are forgiven?

[chutton]

The power is not in your sense a great and mighty POWER it is an authority vested and handed down in apostolic succession. Dessert

I understand what you and many others have been saying in explaining the catholic stance on the priest’s power to forgive sin versus regular individuals forgiving each other…just wasn’t sure if you thought we were confused about the differences… But I think it is clear we know the difference otherwise there wouldn’t be a need for the dialogue we’ve been having. We know there is a unique power that Catholics claim the priests have received from God. We just don’t necessarily agree that this is scriptural…

 

[chutton]

What if someone commits murder and the victim dies instantly? God knew things like this would happen. Why would He expect you to only confess to the person you just killed(wronged)? How COULD you do that? How would you “confess your sins to one another” in this instance? Scripture doesn’t say, “confess your sins to one another except in certain circumstances…” See what I’m getting at? If God meant you only needed to confess to him without going through a priest, he wouldn’t have said, “confess your sins to one another.”

I think there are some misunderstandings of the protestant viewpoint here. I would think that all protestants on this board (correct me if I’m wrong) would agree that there is value in being accountable to each other, transparent with each other, share our struggles and sins with each other and try to support/sharpen each other. Otherwise I would venture to say we would appear as hypocrites, would be harbouring pride, and would not be truly vulnerable with each other. We don’t require it to be only to the pastor however. And we haven’t created rules that we need to go to each other for every sin. However, we certainly believe in the value of “confessing our sins to each other”.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What if someone commits murder and the victim dies instantly? God knew things like this would happen. Why would He expect you to only confess to the person you just killed(wronged)? How COULD you do that? How would you “confess your sins to one another” in this instance? Scripture doesn’t say, “confess your sins to one another except in certain circumstances…” See what I’m getting at? If God meant you only needed to confess to him without going through a priest, he wouldn’t have said, “confess your sins to one another.”

Hi,
Did you read my post #211? That should answer your question.

 

[Lampo]

I think there are some misunderstandings of the protestant viewpoint here. I would think that all protestants on this board (correct me if I’m wrong) would agree that there is value in being accountable to each other, transparent with each other, share our struggles and sins with each other and try to support/sharpen each other. Otherwise I would venture to say we would appear as hypocrites, would be harbouring pride, and would not be truly vulnerable with each other. We don’t require it to be only to the pastor however. And we haven’t created rules that we need to go to each other for every sin. However, we certainly believe in the value of “confessing our sins to each other”.

Well, that really doesn’t answer my question in my scenerio. I agree there are misunderstandings of this protestant view point, especially among protestants! I know protestants that believe that the scripture verse “confess your sins to one another” take that to mean to confess to people they have wronged.

 

[Lampo]

Hi,
Did you read my post #211? That should answer your question.

No, but I will. Thank you.

 

[Lampo]

I read #211 AFH. That makes me wonder if every protestant agrees with you. Is there a place I can go to get the official protestant teaching on whether it is required to confess through someone? Please don’t say the Bible. I think it was you I asked this before; but your interpretation is fallible, which means you could be wrong, correct?

 

[chutton]

Well, that really doesn’t answer my question in my scenerio. I agree there are misunderstandings of this protestant view point, especially among protestants! I know protestants that believe that the scripture verse “confess your sins to one another” take that to mean to confess to people they have wronged.

Part of being truly repentant is to attempt to make things right to the best of your ability. If we are not willing to go that extra step then are we truly repentant? I think ALLFORHIM’s post at #211 went into this concept a bit more indepth.

So, in answer to the scenario you described… The victim is dead, right, and cannot actually hear the confession or extend forgiveness, right? So, if the perpetrator is truly repentant, they cry out to God for forgiveness. (Repentence is not just about saying the words, it is about turning away from sin.) So, the perpetrator turns away from the sins that drew him/her to committing the murder and very well may be prompted by the Holy Spirit and godly council to ask forgiveness from the family members or friends of the victim. That would just be a logical response I would think??? I’m not an expert here on all this…but that would be my off the top of my head thought in this scenario. Now, would the perpetrator likely talk to a pastor/chaplain or other Christ-follower sharing the way God is moving in his/her life and sharing the sorrow felt over the sin? Will the perpetrator need support and help from fellow believers? Likely!!! We’re not created to be islands are we??? We’re a family of believers. Do we believe that the perpatrator “needs” the words “you are forgiven of your sin” by either the victim’s family/friends or the godly council/pastor/chaplain in order to actually be forgiven by God? No! God is the one who forgives and cleanses us of our sins. However, it is certainly prudent to be more accountable to others for our actions and “confess our sins to each other”.

Am I making sense? I probably didn’t do this scenario justice in my response. As I said it is my first thoughts. Probably a few holes in it. But I think what I say reflects the fact that we do believe there is a need for accountability and support from other believers. Don’t you even do this within the catholic church to a degree? If not, that would be very sad. Where we don’t agree is the requirement for forgiveness to be granted based on the words from a priest.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I read #211 AFH. That makes me wonder if every protestant agrees with you. Is there a place I can go to get the official protestant teaching on whether it is required to confess through someone? Please don’t say the Bible. I think it was you I asked this before; but your interpretation is fallible, which means you could be wrong, correct?

I know you said no bible but that is what (i believe)protestants use as their authoritative source.

As you know their is one organization heirarchy to turn to.

 

[Lampo]

I know you said no bible but that is what (i believe)protestants use as their authoritative source.

As you know their is one organization heirarchy to turn to.

Well, the only problem with that answer is, the Catholic Church also uses the Bible. I know of some Lutheran churches that have confession similar to the Catholic Church. So, when all the protestant denominations claim to use the Bible as their authoritative source, how then are there as many different interpretations? They all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit when reading and interpreting Scripture. If all protestant denoms turned to this one “organization hierarchy” for answers, they would all come away with the same answers wouldn’t they? They would all agree on infant baptism, the number of sacraments, are sacraments necessary, confession through a priest, etc.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Well, the only problem with that answer is, the Catholic Church also uses the Bible. I know of some Lutheran churches that have confession similar to the Catholic Church. So, when all the protestant denominations claim to use the Bible as their authoritative source, how then are there as many different interpretations? They all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit when reading and interpreting Scripture. If all protestant denoms turned to this one “organization hierarchy” for answers, they would all come away with the same answers wouldn’t they? They would all agree on infant baptism, the number of sacraments, are sacraments necessary, confession through a priest, etc.

I actually had a thread on that(about many different intrepretations in apologetics.) It is probably way down the list. But if you want to look for it be my guest.

 

[Writer]

How do you know he forgives you? You give a good answer but it still does not answer the question. You could only believe or have to have faith in order to believe that God forgave you.

To me, it fits in the concept of sola fide, faith alone doctrine. For one there is no mediator between the pentitent and God. He can only guess that his sins are forgiven.

Unlike OT Jewish sacrifice which atone for the sins of the people, which makes certain that their sins are taken (if you are a Jew correct me).

The Catholic understanding is that Jesus established authority to the Apostles to forgive sins, not just the passage which I pointed out… Another passage is Matt 16:18-19… “bind and loose.”

I see the flaw in the Protestant concept of “removing sin from one self.”

Most Protestant would be believe that once you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and savior, all yours sins, past, present and future are forgiven… Yet, I don’t see that find in Scripture itself. But that is another issue.

I still don’t see how this would fullfill the entire context of the Sacred Scripture on God’s forgiveness of sins. I only see partial truths, not fullness in what Jesus taught his Apostles.

This thread is a really challenging one, and I think a lot of the communication going on could be described as talking past each other. That is, Protestant and Catholic terminology sometimes carries different connotations and implied meanings. We may think that we are saying one thing, but the listener is hearing something else entirely.

I’m a former Protestant, and I believe that my sins were forgiven, in my earlier life, when I prayed to Christ with a repentent heart. While I, of course, participate in the Sacrament of Confession now, I still may pray directly to Jesus at times for forgiveness, or to simply say I’m sorry. I don’t believe that there is anything remotely wrong with this. When it comes to the more serious issues, though, I also am certain that I take time to seek out a priest.

I’ve had the chance to discuss this issue with priests and many others, and the consensus is that God does hear the prayers of the Protestant. Forgiveness is possible for non-Catholics. Otherwise, what hope would they have?

I guess the reason I’m saying anything is that I don’t think it is really helpful to create an us vs them situation over the issue of forgiveness, and we should really take care to avoid saying flatly that their sins are not forgiven. If the Protestant is seeking forgiveness with a contrite heart before God, I don’t think that he will be turned away. Now, if he knows enough to understand that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, that may be a different story. Either way, though, we shouldn’t be judging our separated bretheren or assuming that their sins are unforgiven simply because they have not followed the appropriate steps. Having said that, though, confessing one’s sins to a priest is an amazing opportunity, and the forgiveness is profound and deep. As I shared in a an article regarding our conversion, my first confession was followed by the mysterious perfume of a garden or pine forest–even though there was no reason for that scent to exist at all in the church.

What might be more helpful is explaining the community aspect of Confession. In other words, the sins we committ aren’t simply against God but against His church, the Christian community. That being the case, when we sin against the community, we should also be coming before the community to seek forgiveness.

 

[ncgolf]

This thread is a really challenging one, and I think a lot of the communication going on could be described as talking past each other. … That being the case, when we sin against the community, we should also be coming before the community to seek forgiveness.

You make a good point but what you describe as a benefit is in reality an abundance of God’s grace being available by using this sacrament.

I have no doubt that God hears all sincere repenters but what is hard to make understood is 1. we do not seek absolution from man but from God through Jesus 2. Jesus did make this method available so if He did then it must be good.

 

[chutton]

This thread is a really challenging one, and I think a lot of the communication going on could be described as talking past each other. That is, Protestant and Catholic terminology sometimes carries different connotations and implied meanings. We may think that we are saying one thing, but the listener is hearing something else entirely.

I’m a former Protestant, and I believe that my sins were forgiven, in my earlier life, when I prayed to Christ with a repentent heart. While I, of course, participate in the Sacrament of Confession now, I still may pray directly to Jesus at times for forgiveness, or to simply say I’m sorry. I don’t believe that there is anything remotely wrong with this. When it comes to the more serious issues, though, I also am certain that I take time to seek out a priest.

I’ve had the chance to discuss this issue with priests and many others, and the consensus is that God does hear the prayers of the Protestant. Forgiveness is possible for non-Catholics. Otherwise, what hope would they have?

I guess the reason I’m saying anything is that I don’t think it is really helpful to create an us vs them situation over the issue of forgiveness, and we should really take care to avoid saying flatly that their sins are not forgiven. If the Protestant is seeking forgiveness with a contrite heart before God, I don’t think that he will be turned away. Now, if he knows enough to understand that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, that may be a different story. Either way, though, we shouldn’t be judging our separated bretheren or assuming that their sins are unforgiven simply because they have not followed the appropriate steps. Having said that, though, confessing one’s sins to a priest is an amazing opportunity, and the forgiveness is profound and deep. As I shared in a an article regarding our conversion, my first confession was followed by the mysterious perfume of a garden or pine forest–even though there was no reason for that scent to exist at all in the church.

What might be more helpful is explaining the community aspect of Confession. In other words, the sins we committ aren’t simply against God but against His church, the Christian community. That being the case, when we sin against the community, we should also be coming before the community to seek forgiveness.

Thanks for this post! I really appreciated your perspective and comments and story. I think you are absolutely right that our terminology can definitely set us back from understanding each other’s perspectives at times. I’ve been feeling that on this thread. I think we’re often in agreement on more things then we think!!!

 

[dessert]

I found this that sums up what I believe much better then I could:
“Do we need to confess our sins to those we have sinned against?”

“Walking in the light” (1 John 1:7) means that we are living in obedience to God’s commandments. In the same verse we have references to forgiveness through Christ and “fellowship one with another.” So, there is a connection between having a “clean slate” and our relationship with other people.

Every sin is ultimately committed against God (Psalm 51:4). The Bible consistently emphasizes our need to confess our sins to Him (Psalm 41:4; 130:4; Acts 8:22; 1 John 1:9). As for the confession of our sins to people, the Bible gives no blanket command. We are told many times to confess our sins to the Lord, but the only direct command to confess to someone else is in the context of church elders praying on behalf of the sick (James 5:16).

This does not mean that we are never to seek another person’s forgiveness. The Bible gives examples of confession to other people. One is Joseph’s brothers asking for his forgiveness in Genesis 50:17-18. And person-to-person confession is implied in such passages as Luke 17:3-4; Ephesians 4:32; and Colossians 3:13.

The principles here seem to be 1) We should seek forgiveness from the Lord for every sin. He desires “truth in the inward parts” (Psalm 51:6). 2) If our relationship with the Lord is right, our relationships with other people will fall

So, while our forgiveness
chutton;2148050:

Part of being truly repentant is to attempt to make things right to the best of your ability. If we are not willing to go that extra step then are we truly repentant? I think AL

So, in answer to the scenario you described… The victim is dead, right, and cannot actually hear the confession or extend forgiveness, right? So, if the perpetrator is truly repentant, they cry out to God for forgiveness. (Repentence is not just about saying the words, it is about turning away from sin.) So, the perpetrator turns away from the sins that drew him/her to committing the murder and very well may be prompted by the Holy Spirit and godly council to ask forgiveness from the family members or friends of the victim. That would just be a logical response I would think??? I’m not an expert here on all this…but that would be my off the top of my head thought in this scenario. Now, would the perpetrator likely talk to a pastor/chaplain or other Christ-follower sharing the way God is moving in his/her life and sharing the sorrow felt over the sin? Will the perpetrator need support and help from fellow believers? Likely!!! We’re not created to be islands are we??? We’re a family of believers. Do we believe that the perpatrator “needs” the words “you are forgiven of your sin” by either the victim’s family/friends or the godly council/pastor/chaplain in order to actually be forgiven by God? No! God is the one who forgives and cleanses us of our sins. However, it is certainly prudent to be more accountable to others for our actions and “confess our sins to each other”.

Am I making sense? I probably didn’t do this scenario justice in my response. As I said it is my first thoughts. Probably a few holes in it. But I think what I say reflects the fact that we do believe there is a need for accountability and support from other believers. Don’t you even do this within the catholic church to a degree? If not, that would be very sad. Where we don’t agree is the requirement for forgiveness to be granted based on the words from a priest.

We do get this support and accountability from the priest who is a believer.

This person who commits murder is definitely out of the Holy Spirit range, the thief on the cross had the dying Jesus right there next to him and he was seeking forgiveness. But he was still accountable for his sin, he still died on the cross.

If what you are saying there would be no need for pastors or ministers or chaplains or priests, this is what I think is disturbing All for Him, she feels alone and not trusting.

Do you think that ministers etc. don’t use comforting words to minister the people on death row? So do priests and they give absolution by the power (authority) vested in them.

If a person is facing the penalty and they don’t ask for a counselor then that is pretty arrogant and then your idea is right that is sad.
Dessert

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM;2145454:

I found this that sums up what I believe much better then I could:
“Do we need to confess our sins to those we have sinned against?”

“Walking in the light” (1 John 1:7) means that we are living in obedience to God’s commandments. In the same verse we have references to forgiveness through Christ and “fellowship one with another.” So, there is a connection between having a “clean slate” and our relationship with other people.

Every sin is ultimately committed against God (Psalm 51:4). The Bible consistently emphasizes our need to confess our sins to Him (Psalm 41:4; 130:4; Acts 8:22; 1 John 1:9). As for the confession of our sins to people, the Bible gives no blanket command. We are told many times to confess our sins to the Lord, but the only direct command to confess to someone else is in the context of church elders praying on behalf of the sick (James 5:16).

This does not mean that we are never to seek another person’s forgiveness. The Bible gives examples of confession to other people. One is Joseph’s brothers asking for his forgiveness in Genesis 50:17-18. And person-to-person confession is implied in such passages as Luke 17:3-4; Ephesians 4:32; and Colossians 3:13.

The principles here seem to be 1) We should seek forgiveness from the Lord for every sin. He desires “truth in the inward parts” (Psalm 51:6). 2) If our relationship with the Lord is right, our relationships with other people will fall

So, while our forgiveness

We do get this support and accountability from the priest who is a believer.

This person who commits murder is definitely out of the Holy Spirit range, the thief on the cross had the dying Jesus right there next to him and he was seeking forgiveness. But he was still accountable for his sin, he still died on the cross.

If what you are saying there would be no need for pastors or ministers or chaplains or priests, this is what I think is disturbing All for Him, she feels alone and not trusting.

Do you think that ministers etc. don’t use comforting words to minister the people on death row? So do priests and they give absolution by the power (authority) vested in them.

If a person is facing the penalty and they don’t ask for a counselor then that is pretty arrogant and then your idea is right that is sad.
Dessert

Hi,
I think Im either tired or the quotes are mixing in with what you are saying and Im confused I think it is both because I dont understand your post.

 

[chutton]

We do get this support and accountability from the priest who is a believer.

This person who commits murder is definitely out of the Holy Spirit range, the thief on the cross had the dying Jesus right there next to him and he was seeking forgiveness. But he was still accountable for his sin, he still died on the cross.

If what you are saying there would be no need for pastors or ministers or chaplains or priests, this is what I think is disturbing All for Him, she feels alone and not trusting.

Do you think that ministers etc. don’t use comforting words to minister the people on death row? So do priests and they give absolution by the power (authority) vested in them.

If a person is facing the penalty and they don’t ask for a counselor then that is pretty arrogant and then your idea is right that is sad.
Dessert

sigh I think we’re in more agreement then you think. If we were talking in person, we would probably get to the bottom of this faster!

I absolutely think that sin has its consequences and you can’t avoid them just by saying “sorry”! Sin hurts so many people and to be truly repentant is to change and turn from our ways…and this can at times be a painful difficult, pricey process.

Yes, we need church leaders. God has called people to leadership roles in the church for a reason…to guide, direct, preach, teach, counsel etc. And I agree that a person who is unwilling to be transparent about sin (if God calls him/her to be) to other believers (though I believe there are many scenarios of how this could play out) is being arrogant and hypocritical. You believe that the priest is the only person you are required to speak to in regards to sin (unless directed otherwise I imagine)…in fact that is necessary in order to be forgiven by God, right?

The crunch issue here is the need for the confession to the priest and the words spoken by the priest on behalf of God. Right? Not on the value of church leadership, that both protestants and catholics would definitely both agree on to varying degrees. And not about the value of accountability or asking forgiveness of someone we have wronged, which i’m sure both sides agree on to a degree as well. Right?

 

[ncgolf]

The crunch issue here is the need for the confession to the priest and the words spoken by the priest on behalf of God. Right? Not on the value of church leadership, that both protestants and catholics would definitely both agree on to varying degrees. And not about the value of accountability or asking forgiveness of someone we have wronged, which i’m sure both sides agree on to a degree as well. Right?

Before one could recognize the need one would have to believe that indeed Jesus left that as an option. This is why Catholics believe this to be an absolute necessity to maintaining a state of grace with Christ. I do not think most, if not all, Protestants or Bible Christians believe that to be the case for if they did believe it they would be taking advantage of it. If indeed Jesus left us the the ability to seek absolution from one who has that authority then I believe one should obey. That is why I see the passage of John 20 as vital as seeing that someone with authority can absolve.

 

[dessert]

sigh I think we’re in more agreement then you think. If we were talking in person, we would probably get to the bottom of this faster!

I absolutely think that sin has its consequences and you can’t avoid them just by saying “sorry”! Sin hurts so many people and to be truly repentant is to change and turn from our ways…and this can at times be a painful difficult, pricey process.

Yes, we need church leaders. God has called people to leadership roles in the church for a reason…to guide, direct, preach, teach, counsel etc. And I agree that a person who is unwilling to be transparent about sin (if God calls him/her to be) to other believers (though I believe there are many scenarios of how this could play out) is being arrogant and hypocritical. You believe that the priest is the only person you are required to speak to in regards to sin (unless directed otherwise I imagine)…in fact that is necessary in order to be forgiven by God, right?

The crunch issue here is the need for the confession to the priest and the words spoken by the priest on behalf of God. Right? Not on the value of church leadership, that both protestants and catholics would definitely both agree on to varying degrees. And not about the value of accountability or asking forgiveness of someone we have wronged, which i’m sure both sides agree on to a degree as well. Right?

Sorry I had a major problem with my computer had to shut it down for awhile, get problems with my mouse.
I believe and is a fact of the Church I think that if one commits murder is not in the Holy Spirit and not in the grace of God.
I should say the Holy spirit is not dwelling in him.
Yes he needs the priest, (you would say minister ) to confess to and pray,(you say pray with), I think a minister is going to say words? When the priest hears the confession he is in total union with the Holy Spirit, and intercedes and as an intercessor, as Jesus told His disciples that anyone who acccepts you accepts me, he is absolving the sin, and he is back into the grace of God.

If I lie to my DH( I gambeled?)so we will deal with only a little sin,
maybe little and now my DH says so I can’t forgive you, you are bad. I tell him I will pay the money back but he still says he won’t forgive me, he is holding back on God’s love and forgiveness and marriage vows to be understanding. So then what do I do? We are to confess our sins one to another? My DH is not using his power to give me forgiveness in fact he is using it against me to retain my sin and give me hell on earth. You may think this is oversimplifying but marriage is a strong bond in the spirit.
Do I get forgiveness from the next door neighbor? No, it is embarrasing enough, humbling yes. I do go to prayer with Jesus. Can I ask another woman or man to give me forgiveness for the sin of gambling. NO unless it is a priest that God has ordained as He did the apostles to forgive or retain sins.

I would have gone to the priest first because of my conscience and to get back into the grace of God, and we would pray together and then I would seek my DH forgiveness which is what the priest would reccommend I hope.

No this is not an arguement between us. Dessert

 

[chutton]

No this is not an arguement between us. Dessert

I didn’t think it was an argument Just a lack of understanding each other’s perspectives due to different terminology essentially and coming at things from a different view.

 

[dessert]

Let me just say that we are not typically forgiving creatures, we tend to hold grudges so I do not DEPEND on the forgiveness of others or the one I offended. But we are creatures of pattern or habit, no I don’t go to the priest every day or week, and I do pray to the Lord Jesus everyday.
My accountability is that I have spoken with a (person) (priest)representing my accountability with my spiritual walk, he is my partner in the spirit.
This is also done seperately than a mass or payer time.
The priest is a shepherd and Jesus is the gateway. They (priests ) take their vow serioously, it is their “mission” to feed the sheep and no others can do this not my DH ( which I used to think could and put him up as a role model) or even the ones on CAF who are great.
So yes we agree on many things and our Holy Father states that your sins are forgivien in the protestant sense and mine are too in the Catholic, I just feel more certain, now then when" I " was a protestant. God Bless YOU . Dessert