Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Firstly, there are not 30,000 interpretations of the Bible. That is a load of bunk.
What world do you live in?

Secondly, it’s not that hard to understand for the most part.
with morethan 30,000 different Interpretations, Oh I think it is

Thridly, the parts that are difficult to understand are still difficult even when interpreted by the Catholic Church.
They are only hard to understand when you have your own interpretations

Fourth, the CC has not interpreted all of the Bible


and fifth, Sola scriptura is not the cause of all the divisions in the church as you appear to be implying.
ofcourse not, It is just one of the causes

I can agree with you somewhat. Somewhat, because there are thousands of denominations, doesn’t necessarily mean there are that many interpretations. But then, we have to ask ourselves how many interpretations is too many? Is 10 different interpretations acceptable, 20, 50, 100, 1000, 5000? The point is, there is one truth and different interpretations of truth are no longer one truth and can no longer be truth.

Again, you are correct. The Catholic Church does not offer an interpretation of every verse of scriptures written. This is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church specifically tells us how to approach interpretations.

**109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”.** According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1. Where are we told which one of the 2.1 billion believers in 2010 is this “INFALLIBLE” interpreter?
2. Did you know that the word “infallible” never appears in the Bible?
3. LOTS of things are “useful” that are not INFALLIBLE. My computer. Shoes. Starbucks coffee. Valentine cards. Deodorant. My Toyota Camry (not being recalled, btw). The jet I took to Phoenix the other day. The law that says that normally we drive on the right hand side of the road in the USA.
4. I think your “problem” is with self appointing self as the sole and infallible interpreter. But I remind you that there actually is only ONE that does that: The Catholic Church. Read your Catechism # 85 and 87. You will find NOTHING of that in the Catechism of ANY other denomination. Your “problem” I suspect is singularly with The Catholic Church on this point, and frankly, I agree with you.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

But the scriptures do tell us the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth. Do we think the Church of the living God is not infallible?

 

[Radical]

How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

How could Christ’s Sermon on the Mount be of any use to any one on that day, w/o an infallible interpreter whispering in the ear of each person on that hillside?

 

[CMatt25]

Newbie and Prodigal, I can’t speak for Dokimas, but as I read Dokimas’s post I simply took it to say Catholics in fact do their own interpreting too. For instance Catholics too have to interpret for themselves to arrive at the belief the Church is the one true Church.

But Dokimas I think was simply saying too no one is infallible and what truth we all know is from the Spirit but as fallible beings, everything we claim as truth may not be.

Dokims, i hope I read your post correctly.

 

[Syele]

I can agree with you somewhat. Somewhat, because there are thousands of denominations, doesn’t necessarily mean there are that many interpretations. But then, we have to ask ourselves how many interpretations is too many? Is 10 different interpretations acceptable, 20, 50, 100, 1000, 5000? The point is, there is one truth and different interpretations of truth are no longer one truth and can no longer be truth.

Again, you are correct. The Catholic Church does not offer an interpretation of every verse of scriptures written. This is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church specifically tells us how to approach interpretations.

Suppose that everyone on earth agreed on one interpretation. Now, suppose that one was actually wrong. Would that be acceptable? You are correct that there is only one Truth. The problem is that i dont believe anyone has got it 100% before they are with God in Heaven where He will fully enlighten us. It is not a popularity contest to see who has the most unity. Unity is good, but it is not the end in itself.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How could Christ’s Sermon on the Mount be of any use to any one on that day, w/o an infallible interpreter whispering in the ear of each person on that hillside?

There is a difference between hearing the word preached and reading scriptures.

But you bring up a good point, in another respect. Would the people need others to explain scriptures to them so that they could be caused to understand?

**Neh 8:1 And the seventh month came: and the children of Israel were in their cities. And all the people were gathered together as one man to the street which is before the water gate, and they spoke to Esdras the scribe, to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:2 Then Esdras the priest brought the law before the multitude of men and women, and all those that could understand, in the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read it plainly in the street that was before the water gate, from the morning until midday, before the men, and the women, and all those that could understand: and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book.
Neh 8:4 And Esdras the scribe stood upon a step of wood, which he had made to speak upon, and there stood by him Mathathias, and Semeia, and Ania, and Uria, and Helcia, and Maasia, on his right hand: and on the left, Phadaia, Misael, and Melchia, and Hasum, and Hasbadana, Zacharia and Mosollam.
Neh 8:5 And Esdras opened the book before all the people: for he was above all the people: and when he had opened it, all the people stood.
Neh 8:6 And Esdras blessed the Lord the great God: and all the people answered, Amen, amen: lifting up their hands: and they bowed down, and adored God with their faces to the ground.
Neh 8:7 Now Josue, and Bani, and Serebia, Jamin, Accub, Sephtai, Odia, Maasia, Celtia, Azarias, Jozabed, Hanan, Phalaia, the Levites, made silence among the people to hear the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 And they read in the book of the law of God distinctly and plainly to be understood: and they understood when it was read.
Neh 8:9 And Nehemias (he is Athersatha) and Esdras the priest and scribe, and the Levites who interpreted to all the people, said: This is a holy day to the Lord our God: do not mourn, nor weep: for all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.
Neh 8:10 And he said to them: Go, eat fat meats, and drink sweet wine, and send portions to them that have not prepared for themselves: because it is the holy day of the Lord, and be not sad: for the joy of the Lord is our strength.
Neh 8:11 And the Levites stilled all the people, saying: Hold your peace, for the day is holy, and be not sorrowful.
Neh 8:12 So all the people went to eat and drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth: because they understood the words that he had taught them.
Neh 8:13 And on the second day the chiefs of the families of all the people, the priests, and the Levites were gathered together to Esdras the scribe, that he should interpret to them the words of the law. **

 

[michaeldaniels]

Protestants, please tell me how you answer this:

2 Peter 1:20-21 Douay Rheims Version (with footnotes in bold)

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Don’t you claim the Holy Spirit showed the CC the correct interpretation?​

I don’t claim all I think I understand is correct, therefore, not all I understand if by the Holy Spirit. But the Truth I understand is from the Holy Spirit.​

Paul penned much of the NT. He never claimed infallibility; quite the contrary. The miracle is that God uses the fallible to bring forth the infallible.​

Why is the CC infallible? Because it says so.

 

[BrianH]

Where does the Catholic Church claim to infallibly interpret the scriptures? I did not see that part in what was quoted from ProdigalSon but I may have missed it.
They do not appear to use the word infallible in regards to interpretation…
But like I said I have not read the whole Catechism

 

[CMatt25]

Protestants, please tell me how you answer this:

2 Peter 1:20-21 Douay Rheims Version (with footnotes in bold)

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

The Protestants can correct me if I’m wrong but I think they say it speaks of the prophets in the Bible. None of their prophecy found in Scripture was of their own. But that’s only what I’ve heard.

 

[BrianH]

Protestants, please tell me how you answer this:

2 Peter 1:20-21 Douay Rheims Version (with footnotes in bold)

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

20 “No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”… This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Thats not what that verse says. It says that the prophecy of scripture was not made by private interpretation. Those that gave the prophecy/scripture were not just using their own interpretatons to speak prophecy, or write prophecy. The verse is referring to prophecy; thats the subject.

 

[tweetymom]

The Protestants can correct me if I’m wrong but I think they say it speaks of the prophets in the Bible. None of their prophecy found in Scripture was of their own. But that’s only what I’ve heard.

Thats what I was taught and believe. God Bless you on your journey with Jesus.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Suppose that everyone on earth agreed on one interpretation. Now, suppose that one was actually wrong. Would that be acceptable? You are correct that there is only one Truth. The problem is that i dont believe anyone has got it 100% before they are with God in Heaven where He will fully enlighten us. It is not a popularity contest to see who has the most unity. Unity is good, but it is not the end in itself.

So it’s better to have many divisions of wrong? That would be more acceptable?

The following was spoken only to the men of the Church, that Christ appointed over His Church.

**Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. **

Do we doubt His being able to do what He said?

We all believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Why did God inspire it be written that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of the Bible?

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Why does the inspired word of God tell us that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known to us through the Church, instead of the Bible?

Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church

Why does the inspired word of God warn us about the unlearned, unstable and unwise, in reference to reading scriptures?

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

 

[michaeldaniels]

1. there are approx 30K + prot sects, all claiming truth and definitive interpretation of the Bible…hence they form their own Churches
2. The Bible is difficult to understand, because if you all were able to do it, then there wouldn’t be a bunch of people riding around with “In Case of Rapture, Car Will Be Unoccupied” bumper stickers…which also is arrogant in my opinion by presuming you will be going to Heaven as if it is pre-destined, because you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Personal Saviour (it takes a heck of a lot more than that)
3. No, they are quite simple…the infallible Magisterium breaks open The Word to us…and they are protected and guided by The Holy Spirit to be able to correctly interpret the Bible
4. Really, what parts?
5. It may not be the only cause, but it is the biggest contributor

Firstly, there are not 30,000 interpretations of the Bible. That is a load of bunk.
Secondly, it’s not that hard to understand for the most part.
Thridly, the parts that are difficult to understand are still difficult even when interpreted by the Catholic Church.
Fourth, the CC has not interpreted all of the Bible
and fifth, Sola scriptura is not the cause of all the divisions in the church as you appear to be implying.

 

[tweetymom]

So it’s better to have many divisions of wrong? That would be more acceptable?

The following was spoken only to the men of the Church, that Christ appointed over His Church.

**Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. **

Do we doubt His being able to do what He said?

We all believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Why did God inspire it be written that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of the Bible?

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Why does the inspired word of God tell us that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known to us through the Church, instead of the Bible?

Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church

Why does the inspired word of God warn us about the unlearned, unstable and unwise, in reference to reading scriptures?

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

The Bible in it’s all was written for all believers and the Holy Spirit guides all into the truth of Scripture.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Let us get something straight right now…There is ONLY 1 Catholic Church…those other “2000 Catholic” denominations are heretics claiming to be Catholics…doesn’t make it so though

the only source i have seen for your 30,000 number includes a whole lot of misinformation and creative word definitions. it also includes over 2,000 CATHOLIC “denominations” I will explain the 28,000 interpretations when you are done explaining the varying 2,000 Catholic ones.

.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Where does the Catholic Church claim to infallibly interpret the scriptures? I did not see that part in what was quoted from ProdigalSon but I may have missed it.
They do not appear to use the word infallible in regards to interpretation…
But like I said I have not read the whole Catechism

The Church, through the men of the hierarchy of the Church, has infallibility over faith and morals, as I provided in the scriptures telling of Christ’s promises to the men He appointed over His Church. Scriptures and interpretations is included in those teachings. I have provided the Catechism of the Catholic Church and it’s instructions on interpreting scriptures.

I am open to correction if someone wants to provide the scriptures teaching us to interpret scriptures for ourselves and that we can depend on that interpretation to be infallible. Then we need the scriptures to tell us how to know which is wrong and which is right if there are differences in the interpretations between us all.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Perfect example of why protestants, when left on their on, unguided by The Holy Spirit will twist and change the meanings via their own private interpretation…The Douay Rheims Bible is the most accurate and literal translation from the Latin that exist…it is error free. Are you saying that the DR Bible is lying, the scriptures are false, and the footnotes provided for the correct interpretation of that passage are also false???

Thats not what that verse says. It says that the prophecy of scripture was not made by private interpretation. Those that gave the prophecy/scripture were not just using their own interpretatons to speak prophecy, or write prophecy. The verse is referring to prophecy; thats the subject.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Bible in it’s all was written for all believers and the Holy Spirit guides all into the truth of Scripture.

Please provide the scriptures that state specifically that for ALL people. Then provide the scriptures that tell us which is wrong and which is right when there are differences between us all.

 

[Syele]

So it’s better to have many divisions of wrong? That would be more acceptable?

Of course not, However it is not better to accept only one if that one is incorrect.

1. there are approx 30K + prot sects, all claiming truth and definitive interpretation of the Bible…hence they form their own Churches

I am completely unconvinced this is remotely true. It is invented by people who like to quote large numbers without proper research.

1. The Bible is difficult to understand, because if you all were able to do it, then there wouldn’t be a bunch of people riding around with “In Case of Rapture, Car Will Be Unoccupied” bumper stickers…which also is arrogant in my opinion by presuming you will be going to Heaven as if it is pre-destined, because you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Personal Saviour (it takes a heck of a lot more than that)

If people truly seek God they will Find the Truth. Humans are all failable and are all prone to sin. Until we stop sinning and start being perfect people will continue to believe all manner of things.

1. No, they are quite simple…the infallible Magisterium breaks open The Word to us…and they are protected and guided by The Holy Spirit to be able to correctly interpret the Bible

If it was so simple you’d see alot less threads around here with more than 3 or 4 posts. you could answer everything in simple terms with a direct quite.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Perfect example of why protestants, when left on their on, unguided by The Holy Spirit will twist and change the meanings via their own private interpretation…The Douay Rheims Bible is the most accurate and literal translation from the Latin that exist…it is error free. Are you saying that the DR Bible is lying, the scriptures are false, and the footnotes provided for the correct interpretation of that passage are also false???

The original scriptures were not written in Latin.