Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

[Prodigal_Son1]

That is because you have not addressed my issue yet.

Are you saying, yes the premise of this thread is nonsense. In real life we have fallible books without infallible interpreters. And we somehow make do. Imagine that.

Was that so difficult to admit?

Now what you are saying in effect is that in every other case in real life we function just fine with fallible books and no infallible interpreters (imagine that), yet at the same time you want me to believe that in this one case and this one case only an infallible book (which is far superior to fallible books) requires an infallible interpreter.

Fallible modern books, written on our native tongue, without the many changes scriptures have had to gone through to be in our hands do not need an infallible interpreter. If you read something wrong in one, your salvation is not at risk and you get to try again until you do get it right.

As per the title of the thread, we’re discussing an infallible (inerrant) book that seems to have produced many, many different interpretations and our salvation rests on the correct interpretation, so YES the most infallible interpretation is most important.

Now where in scriptures does it tell us to turn for that type of truth, the manifold wisdom of God?

I’m not saying it is complete. That is a separate issue. Complete with respect to what?

The complete, or only authority, over faith and morals required of a Christian. Can anyone pickup a Bible and know the complete way to worship God, as God wants us to worship Him, simply by reading it by themselves, like an appliance instruction manual for instance?

There are many examples of Christ correcting the misunderstanding of scriptures. There are examples of the ‘oral tradition’ being necessary. There are examples of scriptures having to have an authority to explain scriptures so that they were opened up to people, or caused them to understand.

 

[Roblox84]

I am conveniently accused of changing the subject, yet I feel like we’re only to provide one side of the discussion to prove the Catholic view.

Are the ‘real life’ fallible books written in parables, metaphors, through a 2000 year old culture, have they gone through many translations from old languages to a modern language, was the instructions written without chapter or page numbers with those being added by someone else later? Are those books to be weighed spiritually or is carnally good enough?

There is a great difference between the Bible and the instructions for my dvd player, computer, television, or any other modern ‘appliance’. So, personally, I cannot see the comparison as the same or as logical.

The Bible states it is ‘useful’, which is short of being complete.

We see Protestants weigh their interpretation against Catholic interpretation and declare that Catholic interpretation is wrong. But, no one will produce the authoritative scriptures stating it as such. No one will produce scriptures stating the Bible is the ONLY authority or that we are to fallibly interpret them for ourselves and then assume an authority to tell others they are wrong, because they have Holy Spirit guidance. This assumes, or accuses, that we do not have Holy Spirit guidance. Then it’s pointed out how many different interpretations there are with scriptures and we ask for scriptures to show us which is correct and which is not, but no one responds with scriptures…because it’s not a scriptural teaching and was not a practice of the early Church.

Well it is very easy to explain in fact, without any bible passages and that way no one can tell me that I misread something or left something out on purpose. First of all its a matter of seeing what type of people attend Protestant churches. They are people that like very graphic words and statements such as preaching about demons, possession, raptures, condemning, etc… Therefore the reformists such as Luther really knew how to appeal to this type of people and by also instituting the belief of “bible alone” he knew that he would achieve a great amount of followers.

But mainly, it is a fact that if one organization gets too big then there will be many other guy’s that will want a piece of that power, and those little guy’s all have to differentiate themselves in some way from the big guy. So without the theory of a belief in the bible alone, people would have no reason of following them because they wouldn’t be able to see the difference between the two and they might as well call themselves Catholics.

So you see, it’s not really a biblical thing as people think, as it is more of a political power struggle between the small denominations that needed a piece of the pie from the big guy. You can compare this to say Microsoft computer company. You have the main operating system which they invented and works well, then later you have the smaller guy’s all competing for profits and inventing other operating systems. These other operating systems will work, but they will never work as well as the original. You don’t need any bible verses or letters or doctrines to explain it. It is just a matter of people being people and constantly wanting to change things.

 

[AmateurPianist]

As per the title of the thread, we’re discussing an infallible (inerrant) book that seems to have produced many, many different interpretations and our salvation rests on the correct interpretation, so YES the most infallible interpretation is most important.

Ah, so now you are saying that because the eternal destiny of my immortal soul rests upon me having the correct interpretation of the Bible. OK. That may or may not make sense. But is the premise correct?

Do you believe that both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven? I do. Now these two folks I imagine have widely divergent beliefs. But I believe they are both in heaven.

So if two people are in heaven that held different beliefs while on earth, that tells me that one’s eternal destiny does not depend upon having the absolute correct interpretation of the Bible. That is comforting to me.

Unless you want to claim that one of John Wesley, Pope JP II is not in heaven.

Now where in scriptures does it tell us to turn for that type of truth, the manifold wisdom of God?

The complete, or only authority, over faith and morals required of a Christian. Can anyone pickup a Bible and know the complete way to worship God, as God wants us to worship Him, simply by reading it by themselves, like an appliance instruction manual for instance?

There are many examples of Christ correcting the misunderstanding of scriptures. There are examples of the ‘oral tradition’ being necessary. There are examples of scriptures having to have an authority to explain scriptures so that they were opened up to people, or caused them to understand.

Hey, I admit that in a way it would be nice if there were an infallible interpreter of Scripture. It would make my life easier. I wouldn’t have to study the Bible for starters. It would all be spoon fed to me.

Well on second thought maybe it wouldn’t be so nice.

But what would be a nice or not so nice way for God to design this according to our puny little minds is really not the issue. The only issue is what actually did God design.

 

[polgas733]

Ah, so now you are saying that because the eternal destiny of my immortal soul rests upon me having the correct interpretation of the Bible. OK. That may or may not make sense. But is the premise correct?

Do you believe that both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven? I do. Now these two folks I imagine have widely divergent beliefs. But I believe they are both in heaven.

So if two people are in heaven that held different beliefs while on earth, that tells me that one’s eternal destiny does not depend upon having the absolute correct interpretation of the Bible. That is comforting to me.

Unless you want to claim that one of John Wesley, Pope JP II is not in heaven.

Hey, I admit that in a way it would be nice if there were an infallible interpreter of Scripture. It would make my life easier. I wouldn’t have to study the Bible for starters. It would all be spoon fed to me.

Well on second thought maybe it wouldn’t be so nice.

But what would be a nice or not so nice way for God to design this according to our puny little minds is really not the issue. The only issue is what actually did God design.

Do you believe that both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven? I do. Now these two folks I imagine have widely divergent beliefs. But I believe they are both in heaven

I wouldn’t know would I? I’m not the Great Judge
John Wesley Could be in the Purgatory while JP II is in Heaven

 

[polgas733]

Hey, I admit that in a way it would be nice if there were an infallible interpreter of Scripture. It would make my life easier. I wouldn’t have to study the Bible for starters. It would all be spoon fed to me.

Well on second thought maybe it wouldn’t be so nice.

But what would be a nice or not so nice way for God to design this according to our puny little minds is really not the issue. The only issue is what actually did God design.

What is the Holy Spirit?
What is God?
What is Jesus?

They are all Truth and Yes they are all ONE
Truth is ONE

w/o TRUTH nothing makes sense
not even the Bible

Do you Agree that the Catholic Church was right about the Trinity?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ah, so now you are saying that because the eternal destiny of my immortal soul rests upon me having the correct interpretation of the Bible. OK. That may or may not make sense. But is the premise correct?

Do you believe that both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven? I do. Now these two folks I imagine have widely divergent beliefs. But I believe they are both in heaven.

So if two people are in heaven that held different beliefs while on earth, that tells me that one’s eternal destiny does not depend upon having the absolute correct interpretation of the Bible. That is comforting to me.

Unless you want to claim that one of John Wesley, Pope JP II is not in heaven.

I will hope they are both in heaven, but cannot presume anyone to be in heaven or hell. That is only up to the one judge that will judge us all.

I do know there was one Church of the Bible, that Christ built, and I believe that to be the Catholic Church. As we have brought up a few times, this was not in dispute during the reformation. Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, who founded the Lutheran Church. He founded the Lutheran Church after He was no longer affliated with the Catholic Church and his separation was over the selling of indulgences. Why are there so many denominations now? Why aren’t Protestants all Lutheran? That’s the heart of this discussion.

We believe there are many denominations because of private interpretations, all claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit. Each denomination having slight to great differences in teachings and doctrines. Now, in the matter of our salvation, or simply our response to God’s love being to worship Him as He wills us to worship Him, it seems to be of utmost importance that we are responding with the correct interpretation.

While it is our hope that those of different beliefs are in heaven, there is no assurance of such, at least it’s not written in scriptures. I am open to correction on that, but expect a discussion with a view of the unified Church being supported by scriptures. We are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Hey, I admit that in a way it would be nice if there were an infallible interpreter of Scripture. It would make my life easier. I wouldn’t have to study the Bible for starters. It would all be spoon fed to me.

Well on second thought maybe it wouldn’t be so nice.

But what would be a nice or not so nice way for God to design this according to our puny little minds is really not the issue. The only issue is what actually did God design.

That’s the point Catholics try to make all the time. We have faith in Christ’s promises and in scriptures that there is an infallible interpreter of scriptures. The men that wrote the scriptures shared their interpretation with those they gave them too. Those passed the scriptures and interpretations on to their successors. At some point they, the holders of scriptures and interpretations, defined the canon of the New Testament. Then the holders of scriptures and interpretations preserved them through the centuries. Martin Luther made it quite clear who those holders were.

“We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics)–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

Now, considering who ‘held’ the scriptures until the reformation who, 500 years later, should we trust to have the correct interpretation? I’m going to keep my salvation in my faith in Christ and in the Church He gave us, as well as the scriptures.

Christ gave us a Church, that gave us scriptures, in that order.

 

[polgas733]

The problem with threads like this is that they go about this all wrong IMO. They first assume that Protestants think that division is taught or accepted in scriptures and then inevitably someone quotes alot of claptrap al la Barrett. Instead, if they tried some honesty and starting on common ground, people might get a whole lot farther.

I think that is why Protestants protested in the first place.
I think

Disagreement = Protest to me
now to me, How could there be Peace w/o Union and Agreement?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Do you believe that both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven? I do. Now these two folks I imagine have widely divergent beliefs. But I believe they are both in heaven

I wouldn’t know would I? I’m not the Great Judge
John Wesley Could be in the Purgatory while JP II is in Heaven

Or vice versa. Or both are in Purgatory. Or there is no purgatory.

But if there is a purgatory and you are in it, you are assured heaven,.

 

[polgas733]

Or vice versa. Or both are in Purgatory. Or there is no purgatory.

But if there is a purgatory and you are in it, you are assured heaven,.

Surely JP II would be in heaven
I believe that

You could be in the Purgatory for a very very very very long time
and it is not the same as being in heaven

 

[RedBert]

I posted

"Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter? "

The exact same way it works for the Jews.

then

Read Nehemiah 8 to see how it worked for the Jews…

missing that point: can you interpret that for me?

 

[ismeneny]

This is quite an interesting question to ask. The answer will be completely dependant on whether you are Catholic or Protestant. If you are Catholic, the answer is no. You can not fully understand it because the Pope is infallible.
However, therein lies the #1 difference between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe that the only human who was infallible was Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore, only God is infallible. If you are not God (and there is only one) then you are simply human and by nature are a sinner and will make mistakes. If the Pope is not God - which he isn’t because there is only one God - then the Pope will make mistakes just like the rest of us. Therefore, the Pope is not infallible. If the Pope is not infallible, then Catholics are do not have an infallible interpreter and Catholics are in the same boat as Protestants, just trying to understand and live by the word of God to the best of their ability.

 

[polgas733]

But if there is a purgatory and you are in it, you are assured heaven,.

NOW, ASSURANCE
this again reminds me of “Once Saved Always Saved”
That is one of the greatest Delusions

 

[mackbrislawn]

Do you believe that both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven? I do. Now these two folks I imagine have widely divergent beliefs. But I believe they are both in heaven.

So if two people are in heaven that held different beliefs while on earth, that tells me that one’s eternal destiny does not depend upon having the absolute correct interpretation of the Bible. That is comforting to me.

Is Buddha in heaven? Mohammed?
If one’s eternal destiny does not depend upon having the correct interpretation of the Bible, maybe one’s destiny doesn’t depend on having a Bible, either.

 

[polgas733]

This is quite an interesting question to ask. The answer will be completely dependant on whether you are Catholic or Protestant. If you are Catholic, the answer is no. You can not fully understand it because the Pope is infallible.
However, therein lies the #1 difference between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe that the only human who was infallible was Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore, only God is infallible. If you are not God (and there is only one) then you are simply human and by nature are a sinner and will make mistakes. If the Pope is not God - which he isn’t because there is only one God - then the Pope will make mistakes just like the rest of us. Therefore, the Pope is not infallible. If the Pope is not infallible, then Catholics are do not have an infallible interpreter and Catholics are in the same boat as Protestants, just trying to understand and live by the word of God to the best of their ability.

How about the Holy Spirit? Guiding the True Church to All Truth
Surely Protestants would believe in that

 

[polgas733]

Is Buddha in heaven? Mohammed?
If one’s eternal destiny does not depend upon having the correct interpretation of the Bible, maybe one’s destiny doesn’t depend on having a Bible, either.

Please stop asking questions like this,
for we do not know Buddha 100% was he purely Good? NO
was Mohammed? NO

we don’t know

they could be in the process of purification (Purgatory) or they could be in Hell

One thing is for sure, Unless you are 100% Cleansed you CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN

 

[mackbrislawn]

This is quite an interesting question to ask. The answer will be completely dependant on whether you are Catholic or Protestant. If you are Catholic, the answer is no. You can not fully understand it because the Pope is infallible.
However, therein lies the #1 difference between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe that the only human who was infallible was Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore, only God is infallible. If you are not God (and there is only one) then you are simply human and by nature are a sinner and will make mistakes. If the Pope is not God - which he isn’t because there is only one God - then the Pope will make mistakes just like the rest of us. Therefore, the Pope is not infallible. If the Pope is not infallible, then Catholics are do not have an infallible interpreter and Catholics are in the same boat as Protestants, just trying to understand and live by the word of God to the best of their ability.

No, the Pope isn’t God, and neither were Peter, Paul, and the other apostles. So they are not infallible either, and could have made mistakes.

 

[polgas733]

No, the Pope isn’t God, and neither were Peter, Paul, and the other apostles. So they are not infallible either, and could have made mistakes.

Could a man make mistakes if they have the Holy Spirit guiding them to all Truth?

 

[polgas733]

This is quite an interesting question to ask. The answer will be completely dependant on whether you are Catholic or Protestant. If you are Catholic, the answer is no. You can not fully understand it because the Pope is infallible.
However, therein lies the #1 difference between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe that the only human who was infallible was Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore, only God is infallible. If you are not God (and there is only one) then you are simply human and by nature are a sinner and will make mistakes. If the Pope is not God - which he isn’t because there is only one God - then the Pope will make mistakes just like the rest of us. Therefore, the Pope is not infallible. If the Pope is not infallible, then Catholics are do not have an infallible interpreter and Catholics are in the same boat as Protestants, just trying to understand and live by the word of God to the best of their ability.

And No, we are not on the same boat
for we have the Holy Spirit with us

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I posted

then

missing that point: can you interpret that for me?

Surely anyone can see the priests, the authority over God’s truth in the Old Testament, had to explain scriptures to the people, causing them to understand. This works the same for Christians, in the Church Christ built, as it did for the Jews.

Neh 8:1 And the seventh month came: and the children of Israel were in their cities. And all the people were gathered together as one man to the street which is before the water gate, and they spoke to Esdras the scribe, to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:2 Then Esdras the priest brought the law before the multitude of men and women, and all those that could understand, in the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read it plainly in the street that was before the water gate, from the morning until midday, before the men, and the women, and all those that could understand: and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book.
Neh 8:4 And Esdras the scribe stood upon a step of wood, which he had made to speak upon, and there stood by him Mathathias, and Semeia, and Ania, and Uria, and Helcia, and Maasia, on his right hand: and on the left, Phadaia, Misael, and Melchia, and Hasum, and Hasbadana, Zacharia and Mosollam.
Neh 8:5 And Esdras opened the book before all the people: for he was above all the people: and when he had opened it, all the people stood.
Neh 8:6 And Esdras blessed the Lord the great God: and all the people answered, Amen, amen: lifting up their hands: and they bowed down, and adored God with their faces to the ground.
Neh 8:7 Now Josue, and Bani, and Serebia, Jamin, Accub, Sephtai, Odia, Maasia, Celtia, Azarias, Jozabed, Hanan, Phalaia, the Levites, made silence among the people to hear the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 And they read in the book of the law of God distinctly and plainly to be understood: and they understood when it was read.
Neh 8:9 And Nehemias (he is Athersatha) and Esdras the priest and scribe, and the Levites who interpreted to all the people, said: This is a holy day to the Lord our God: do not mourn, nor weep: for all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.
Neh 8:10 And he said to them: Go, eat fat meats, and drink sweet wine, and send portions to them that have not prepared for themselves: because it is the holy day of the Lord, and be not sad: for the joy of the Lord is our strength.
Neh 8:11 And the Levites stilled all the people, saying: Hold your peace, for the day is holy, and be not sorrowful.
Neh 8:12 So all the people went to eat and drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth: because they understood the words that he had taught them.
Neh 8:13 And on the second day the chiefs of the families of all the people, the priests, and the Levites were gathered together to Esdras the scribe, that he should interpret to them the words of the law.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is quite an interesting question to ask. The answer will be completely dependant on whether you are Catholic or Protestant. If you are Catholic, the answer is no. You can not fully understand it because the Pope is infallible.
However, therein lies the #1 difference between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe that the only human who was infallible was Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore, only God is infallible. If you are not God (and there is only one) then you are simply human and by nature are a sinner and will make mistakes. If the Pope is not God - which he isn’t because there is only one God - then the Pope will make mistakes just like the rest of us. Therefore, the Pope is not infallible. If the Pope is not infallible, then Catholics are do not have an infallible interpreter and Catholics are in the same boat as Protestants, just trying to understand and live by the word of God to the best of their ability.

See here’s where your mistaken. Christ is the head of His Church, which is the body of Christ. The Bible tells us the that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth. It also tells us that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church.

Christ also told the men of His Church that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach them all things. He also said He would be with them until the consummation of the world. These, as you so aptly pointed out, were mortal men who would not be here at the consummation of the world. He was speaking to His Church.

The men of the Church were fallible, yet they wrote scriptures, translated them, added chapter and verse numbers, defined the canon of the New Testament, and preserved them to the present day. Just as God worked through the Holy Spirit to accomplish those tasks through fallible men, He has the power to protect His truth through fallible men.