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CMatt25
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You mean the verses simply talking about how the prophets mentioned in Scripture received their prophecy from God? What does that have to do with now?
Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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Your posts are getting to sound more and more like a southern baptist than catholic!
Matthew
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CMatt25
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No way would I be a Southern Baptist!Your posts are getting to sound more and more like a southern baptist than catholic!
Matthew
Anyway my Church has drifted more towards the conservative fundamentalist as it is. 
But at least you seem to understand there are people who interpret the verses you gave differently than you might. 
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larkin31
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This tends, I believe, to be linked to an emphasis on infallibility–a form of institutional hubris, from my point of view. But not all Catholics share the trait!Why do we Catholics always assume someone does not understand what we are saying?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Because, I repeated the explanation over and over and tried changing it each time so it could be understood. I did that, because the other poster repeated the same argument over and over.
I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. I only wish to show them that Catholic beliefs are scriptural, even if they don’t agree with the interpretation. Some people can’t even agree with that.
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CMatt25
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Can you understand that beliefs you might not agree with the interpretation of also have Scriptural basis? I haven’t met a Christian church yet, or the in vogue term nowadays might be “communities” or “sects” which don’t produce Scripture to back up their beliefs.
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Prodigal_Son1
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I have repeatedly requested scriptures, with explanations, that they believe support their view. And I don’t believe this particular denomination to be a ‘community’ or a ‘sect’.Can you understand that beliefs you might not agree with the interpretation of also have Scriptural basis? I haven’t met a Christian church yet, or the in vogue term nowadays might be “communities” or “sects” which don’t produce Scripture to back up their beliefs.
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AmericanJosiah
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Josiah:
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Christ made those promises to men He appointed over His Church, knowing that those men would eventually die, yet He stated He would be with them, His Church, until the consummation of the world. In our faith, we believe Christ has all power to do whatever He said He would do, including teach and guide His Church in all things, including the things that are to come. That’s infallible.
- These thread is not about any act of faith. As I have repeatedly posted, you certainly MAY do as The Catholic Church requires: exempt it and it alone from accountability for the doctrine it teaches, and rather simply accept with docility whatever it and it alone says. And I will afford you EXACTLY the same respect for such as YOU DO to our Mormon friends who perform the same act of faith in the same demand of their denomination. Fair enough? I’m sure you think it is.
- You have been justifying the rubric of exempting a teacher from accountability and docilicly accepting whatever that teacher alone says by insisting that Jesus promised IT infallibility - exclusively and perpetuallty. You’ve quoted some verses, and I’ve noted the obvious and undenial, none of them have even MENTIONED The Catholic Church or unaccountability or docility - at all. For anything, about anything, concerning anything, in any context or about any matter. Why you have not noticed this, I just don’t know.
- The verses you quote are not about infalliblity or unaccountability. And they say nothing about successors. And they don’t even so much as MENTION The Catholic Church.
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AmericanJosiah
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.
… continues from the post above vis-a-vis the quote from me
I think that truth matters - especially doctrines concerning our souls. I think that teachers of such are accountable for such. The Catholic Church no less or no more than any other. This is where we disagree - because, as a Catholic, you may not hold The Catholic Church accountable for the doctrines it teaches but must accept whatever IT exclusively says “with docility.” And you’ve been trying to defend the wisdom of accepting whatever a teacher says because the self same so insists that you just do.
Here are but a few of the Scriptures I’ve shared, all of which suggests accountability:
2 Peter 2:1
Titus 2:1
1 Timothy 6:3
James 3:1
Revelation 2:2
Matthew 13:52
Luke 20:46
Ephesians 4:14
And of course, consider that your denomination INSISTS that ALL teachers be FULLY accountable - right here, right now!!! It just insists on exempting one and exclusively one from this: itself. THAT is what we are disagreeing about, the epistemological soundness of THAT.
Thank you.
Pax
… continues from the post above vis-a-vis the quote from me
- Read what I posted above. You are entirely evading all I posted there.
- I’m entirely lost as to your premise that students are infallible and unaccountable (making me wonder why I had tests in college). You refuse to share why you have this idea that students are infallible - you’ve ignored that over and over and over. So I just have no reason to consider this apologetic.
- You don’t seem to notice that Jesus never said this to The Catholic Church.
- He doesn’t promise this to the church.
- There STILL is one church. But that has nothing to do with The Catholic Church or any other denomination. Where does this say that The Catholic Church is - and ever will be - infallible, unaccountable and we must accept whatever IT exclusively and particularly teachers “with docility” “as God speaking” but hold ALL OTHER teachers as fully accountable - right here, right now. You keep insisting that JESUS SAID THESE THINGS and keep proving He did no such thing. Your whole premise is that Jesus PROMISED all this specifically, exclusively to The Catholic Church, that IT and IT ITSELF ALONE is and will be in all perpetuity be infallible and unaccountable and whatever it says must be just accepted with docility. And that since it has a teacher who is infallible, ergo it MUST be infallible since students are infallible, but you keep evading any explanation for where you got the idea that students are infallible and unaccountable. And that God promised to lead IT (again - not a single Scripture to support that claims) and that all followers are infallible/unaccountable - but again, I have no idea where you get that idea. Certainly not from the Bible (as I quoted a couple of instances to you to show this is a false premise on your part).
I have quoted Scriptures. You’ve never commented on them. Scriptures where God warns us of FALSE teachers, antichrists and those that lead many astray - which means teachers can be false and thus are accountable. I quoted where Jesus praised the Ephesian Christians for regarding their teachers as accountable, for testing them, for declaring them false.
I think that truth matters - especially doctrines concerning our souls. I think that teachers of such are accountable for such. The Catholic Church no less or no more than any other. This is where we disagree - because, as a Catholic, you may not hold The Catholic Church accountable for the doctrines it teaches but must accept whatever IT exclusively says “with docility.” And you’ve been trying to defend the wisdom of accepting whatever a teacher says because the self same so insists that you just do.
Here are but a few of the Scriptures I’ve shared, all of which suggests accountability:
2 Peter 2:1
Titus 2:1
1 Timothy 6:3
James 3:1
Revelation 2:2
Matthew 13:52
Luke 20:46
Ephesians 4:14
And of course, consider that your denomination INSISTS that ALL teachers be FULLY accountable - right here, right now!!! It just insists on exempting one and exclusively one from this: itself. THAT is what we are disagreeing about, the epistemological soundness of THAT.
Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
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Dokimas
Guest
Seems like good and reasonable points to me, for what-ever it’s worth.
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tweetymom
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Sounds that way to me also. It needs to be pointed out that Jesus will be the final judge of us in the end.
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Dokimas
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True. My desire is that I’ll be judged based upon His Blood and Broken Body. I have no personal righteousness upon which I can stand.
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tweetymom
Guest
As for me the same applies. God Bless your family. Oops you too!
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larkin31
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As I have said here–or elsewhere, maybe–it is that issue of institutional infallibility that often causes Protestants the most trouble. So much of Catholic thinking comes from that foundation, yet so little of scripture actually suggests it (and scripture never explicitly states it).
And there it is, the structural stays of CC dogma.
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AmericanJosiah
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shawn38
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“Well, how do you know that the CC;s infallible authority is indeed infallible?” If the Roman Catholic demands infallible knowledge in order to know for certain that the Bible is infallibly authoritative, then it follows that one would have to have infallible knowledge that the first infallible authority is indeed infallible. This would require another infallible authority. That would, in turn, require another infallible authority in order to authenticate the infallibility of the second infallible authority, and on and on it goes into an infinite regression of infallible authorities required in order to have infallible knowledge.How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?
please don’t say “we have the Holy Spirit with us”
because there is no way there can be mor ethan 30,000 Holy Spirit and hence the word “Holy Spirit” it is not Plural
The only infallible authority we have other than the Scripture is the Holy Spirit. Quit trying to deny the Holy Spirit’s role in convicting the hearts of believers of the truthfulness of God’s Word
John 14:26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26“When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
If God wants to give His Word in written form without the need of another authority to authenticate it, then that is obviously within His power. But He chose to give us the Holy Spirit.
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Soutane
Guest
There may not be 30,000 radically different interprepations of the Bible but there certainly are 30,000+subtle differences in interpretation or else why would have 30,000+protestant groups have denominated by following MEN from the one true and ONLY Church founded by Christ(I.E.GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF)You can stamp your feet and shut your ears but that is the bald Truth.The Holy Catholic Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which is Christ Himself.
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Soutane
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The Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself and would not cause ,30,000+protestant eclaisial bodies to be formed all "claiming"guidance of the Holy Spirit"Jesus Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevauil against His Catholic Church and that He would be with us always.I also believe that His fervant prayer was that we would all be one.The Catholic Church IS universally one.The protestant eclaisial bodies are most assuredly not.
26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a]eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”**
34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?”[c] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
The Eunuch needed a Bishop of the Catholic Church-Philip to explain it to him-which resulted in his becoming a Catholic.**
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CMatt25
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The Holy Spirit does not contradict. The gates of hell will not prevail. We are of one faith in Christ. If Catholics could stop referring to other Christian churches as “ecclesial bodies” and actually learn to utter the word CHURCH again when referring to our brothers and sisters in Christ like we used to do, that might help in whatever other differences we do have. But this superior attitude has got to stop IMHO to truly live up to the words our Savior gave us. Peace and love to all.
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