Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[jahsoul]

Joey,
Let’s take a closer look at what Paul says about Scripture in the verse you quote.
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

You will not the that the word here is “useful” of some render it “profitable”
If I were to say to you that "All Food is useful for maintaining life, would you assume that food is the only thing necessary for life? Of course not.
Therefore the term “useful” is not intercahngable witht he term “sole”

As another thought in this regard I would ask whether you think that St Paul would agree that Scripture could be removed from the tradition in which it was written and used by just anyone who was not a Properly trained Jew or Christian. Could a Pagan Roman simply begin reading the Scriptures and properly understand them?

Another point on this is that St Paul says that All Scripture is useful for " teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". These are all things that need someone to do the training correcting etc.
After all it is pretty obvious that you think that you need to “teach, rebuke and correct” me, and I think I need to “teach, rebuke and correct” you, in the proper understanding of Scripture. Thus it can be seen that written"Scripture itself" is not sufficient. It requires a proper training, understanding and needs to be maintained in the faith tradition that originated it. Thus the Bible needs to be properly understood within the framework of the Church which assembled it.

Peace
James

Greetings James…shakes hand

It’s more than just this verse…read the verses before and after it.

When you respond, we can talk more.

Joey

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible isn’t the Catholic Book, it is the Word of God that would have been read if it was canonized or not.

Are you saying that the early Christians would have simply known what was inspired and what was not, without the guidance of the Church? That is, they would have known to reject the Gospel of Thomas, but accept, say, Philippians?

I don’t have to fool anyone, nor do I attempt to. I look to God for everything. Read James 1:5…please.

“But if any of you (A)lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and (B)it will be given to him.”*

So what do we do with all the different Bible Christians who read the same Bible but get completely different theologies??

The truth is the Word of God has been preserved.

Indeed. By the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

And calling me wrong, I just grin. Not being arrogant or a jerk, but I know the Holy Spirit is in me and it manifest itself daily. I don’t have to be Peter for God to work through me…

I don’t think Catholics claim that we have to be Peter for God to work through us.

 

[MDK]

All scriptures are inspired. Infallible means without error, I know this. But think about it. The Word of God is inspired by God, therefore without error, making it infallible. Peter had error. He denied Jesus 3 times, he was a hothead at times, and at times he lacked faith. And to say what he taught wasn’t error, read why Paul rebuked him and tell me that what Peter was doing was infallible. But God’s word will never have error. It can never have a chance to have error because my God is a God that cannot lie. His word is perfect and impeccable, neither is corruptible. If He said it, it is done. If the church is lead by God, what extra protection is needed? And what is personal sin? The reason I asked is because sin shouldn’t be classified; sin is sin. And all that sin should confess their(our) sins before God. Although it is debated where or not Peter wrote those two, I don’t care and what was wrote is essential, as well as the rest of the scriptures. But the scripture still only uses the word infallible with one person, Jesus. Can’t forget him in the mix.

Please learn before you speak… learn the truth that is, and not from the typical run of the mill ignorant Protestant deceptions that fool many, including you. If one had told me 1/100th of what we have told you, I would investigate to seek the truth. It’s quite obvious that you have no interest in the truth.

All of the Apostles sinned, Peter included, and certainly Paul did as well as the “13th Apostle”. Peter didn’t merit the position due to his own infallibility, as he can’t do anything well without Christ, just as you pointed out. However, you don’t understand what Christ did with Peter. Jesus chose Peter, and the gift of the Holy Spirit made Him infallible. Your beef is with Christ, then as you doubt Christ and continue to denigrate His Bride, the Church.

Jesus was perfect, not just infallible. To limit Jesus to just being infallible is blasphemy. Peter is infallible as all the Popes because of Christ. The are not thus without Christ’s protection.

The Spirit of God is not the One who moves you, because you do tell lies.

 

[MDK]

Christianity is Christianity. If that was the case, then the church would have been called Catholic since the beginning and another reason I say that is, all Catholics aren’t going to Heaven. Fact. There are some who proclaim to know God and are living contrary. You can be say Catholicism all day but if YOUR heart ain’t right, Catholicism won’t be there with you on the Day of Judgment. Also, the first group of believers were called Christians. And lets be honest here, do you speak in tongues or believe in it? That’s in the bible and all the apostles and believers spoke with em and it is in the Bible. What about praise and worship? Majority of Psalms deal with praise and worship. Diluting is also leaving out or making one less significant than the other. I take ALL things that are in the Bible, not just few that has been passed down to be right.

**
Catholicism is Christianity.** You won’t understand this, but the truth is also that everyone in Heaven is Catholic, as Christ has one faith system. All other faith systems are man made and teach error. For instance, you are extremely erroneous. It’s really hard to believe that one can be as wrong as you continually are, and yet not care to do better.

I’m disobedient to the Lord? Because I choose to follow Christ with all my heart, I’m disobedient. Go back through all of the thread MDK, you have spoken more than anyone… Get the mote out your eye my brother before you look at my 2 eyes…

Unfortunately, you are disobedient to the Lord. You reject those who Christ sent, and therefore reject Christ. Due to your own personal unlearnedness, you proceed to tell His Church that it is wrong, when it has faithfully taught the truth about Him for almost 2000 years. The prudent ones would proceed with caution while ignorant on the subject. What do you say to one who continually goes against the teachings of Christ, and His Church, except that you are disobedient to Christ in doing so. I don’t say this to those who are obedient to Him, by following those whom He sent, following and loving His one and only Church.

I’m obedient to Christ. Being a Catholic doesn’t make me disobedient. Didn’t a Pope state that you don’t have to be a Catholic to be a Christian, but he may have been lead by other spirits, but wait, the office is infallible…

No, you’re not obedient. You lie by claiming you are interpreting with the help of the Holy Spirit, and yet you oppose Christ’s teachings. Christ sent His Apostles out to continue His mission, and likewise they enlisted other men by laying on of hands to ordain. The Catholic Church members wrote Scriptures for Catholics, and it only makes sense in the Catholic Church. The unlearned take our Book out of the Church where it was written and put together, and proceed to apply ignorance to the meanings and tell us we’re wrong. Sorry, if you don’t follow what Christ established for you, you are being disobedient to Him.

Trinitarian Baptism came through the Church. If you are Baptized, then you are Christian with your foot in the door. However, **what good does it do one to be heretical and disobedient? Is that real Christianity? **
**
Catholicism is Christianity as built by Christ. ** All others teach falsely to one degree or another. What do you want, the truth of Christ, or falsehoods of men. When like so many made made faith systems, you create a god that you can understand and worship this god, then you are engaging in idolatry. ** To be truly obedient to Christ, you must listen to those whom He sent, who are the Bishops and Pope in the Catholic Church, with the true and correct understanding of our Scriptures and the Sacred Tradition. **

 

[MDK]

Good morning/afternoon. I will try my best to get all of the replies MDK.

Well, regarding Purgatory and its “purpose,” we won’t be per se “perfect” until we are in our glorified bodies. We strive for perfection but we won’t be able to reach the perfection of Jesus until we are out of these bodies. But perfection as Paul used it was spiritual maturity. Talking about growing in Christ, from baby step to a man. Drinking milk to eating meat.

And yes, Jesus died for the sins of all men/women. Everyone also has the free will to follow Christ or not. That is why everyone isn’t going to heaven. And you are right, there are things that we have to do. But I have to digress, all of the things that you have stated comes with believing. Believing that Jesus is the son of God that died for the remissions of our sins, was buried, and rose the third day is the first step to spiritual growth and the works are a manifestation of the change in our life. And anyone can lose it what God has given. It’s called sin. No matter what we do, sin separates us. I can forgive everybody I meet, take communion, and get baptized 5 times a year, if the inside is not right, it’s all worthless.

We really don’t need replies from you, as you don’t contribute anything worthwhile, but just throw out more error which shows extreme unlearnedness.

I have already explained this to you… and the good words are being wasted on one who cannot or willfully will not understand, and does not care for truth as is evidenced by arrogance in the face of truth.

Your ignorance of doctrine also shows… one does not get baptized more than once in a lifetime. Jesus established confession for us to get rid of sins after baptism. If you don’t like this, then your problem is with Christ.

 

[MDK]

Well, MDK, thank you for that comment, because according to you, the church was STILL started in Jerusalem. And the Bible, they were not called Catholic. This is assumed tradition through the years. They were said to walk in “the Way.” (makes sense with Jesus being The Way, the Truth, and the Life) and then in Acts 11, they were called Christians. Nothing more, nothing less.

Peter might have been wanted in Rome; so were other Christians. I’ve read in 1 Peter when he said that he was in Babylon. All I said was it is recording in Romans, that Paul didn’t mention him once but mentioned others who were figures in the church him. That’s all I said.

And I’m not leading anyone anywhere. If anyone reads what I write and are compelled to read for themselves, I just pray that God leads them in the right direction. Can’t lead no one astray if you pray that God leads them.

Jerusalem is special, certainly and where our salvation was merited by Christ our Lord. Christ moved the head of His Church to Rome. If you don’t like this, your problem is with Christ. I am at peace with this.

What’s in a name? According to your logic, then a baby changes personhood after birth by getting a name! In reality, you could call Jesus’ one Church any name you want (do you do this?), and it would still be a Church with the head in Rome and which is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church happens to be called Catholic, and so this is how we refer to God’s one Church. To not understand this is to be ignorant. To deny this is to be sadly out of touch with reality.

If you don’t really pray to God, but to yourself, or if you don’t pray sincerely going with God’s will, then you won’t really go anywhere. You are not really going anywhere right now, as you really get no traction with the truth.

 

[JRKH]

Greetings James…shakes hand

It’s more than just this verse…read the verses before and after it.

When you respond, we can talk more.

Joey

I will assume for the moment that you either agree with everything I wrote in the post just prior to the one you address here or at least are giving it good consideration.

OK – Let’s look at the “verses before and after it.
First Paul reminds Timothy that he, Paul has been Timothy’s teacher both formally and by example through various persecutions and sufferings.

2 Tim 3:

10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Paul again reminds Timothy that he, Paul, has been Timothy’s teacher

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom**** you learned it,

And now Paul reminds Timothy of the importance of Scripture, but not Scripture alone – Rather it is Scripture that is understood within the light of Paul’s Apostolic teaching as shown in the verses above for only a teacher can “teach” by “rebuking” and “correcting”.

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So then, what does Paul tell Timothy to do with Scripture coupled with Paul’s teaching?

2 Tim 4:
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort,

with all longsuffering and teaching.
So is Timothy to do this by just handing people the Scriptures and telling them to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
I think not!!
The only way to “Convince rebuke and exhort” is for Timothy to personally take the Scriptures and apply Paul’s teachings (some of which were oral and thus fall under the heading of “Tradition”.

So in summary – Yes Paul tells us that Scripture is important. Scripture is “God Breathed”, but that does not mean that every interpretation is “God breathed”. That is why it is critical that we have solid and sound teachers of the Scriptures. That is what Paul reminds Timothy of twice in the above passage and then he exhorts Timothy to take what he has learned and to teach others. This is Apostolic succession in a nutshell and the Church has provided nearly 2000 years of consistent Apostolic Teaching in this way; passed on from generation to generation, in unbroken succession, in both written AND Oral form from that day to this one.

Those in the first generation of the Early Church taught Orally and used OT Scripture to support their teachings. So the Earliest NT teachings were ALL Oral. Those “Oral Teachings” that were written down and later Approved by The Church as inspired went into the NT canon of the Bible. The NT of the Bible is the Written part of Catholic Church Tradition. So again we have the three legged stool, Scripture, magisterium, and Tradition.

Peace
James

 

[1beleevr]

SteveGC: Of all the posts written by catholics, I wold have thought you could figure out, that I was making an observation, and not taking a cheap shot at your pope. A cheap shot, would be more like, "Man, check out the old guy in the clown suit! Tell me something, when the disciples joined Christ, were they wearing tuxedos; were the “commoners”, who flocked to see and hear him, decked out in three piece suits? I was simply contrasting then and now! Peter didn’t wear this type of vestment, did he The Sanhedrin, however did wear similar clothing! No offense, just didn’t realize you were so sensitive

 

[1beleevr]

JRKH: W-O-W! Are all catholics as sensitive as you; and anal? Do you all have the “gift” of reading things into posts without thinking of what the real message is? And when we look at any man of God, including the pope, how do we know what the inside of the cup looks like? All of us have been guilty of paying more attention to what the outside looks like, and ignoring the inside! I see many, many, HUGE church buildings, some with quite ornate decorations, and stained-glass windows Does this mean that there is warmth and acceptance on the inside? Not always; in fact, some of these buildings are quite cold, and I don’t mean temperature-wise. And, let’s thinl of this; were any of us dressed to the “nines”, when we came to Christ, humbled and broken! I would like to know the origin of “dressing up” to go to church! Couldn’t have started with the early church:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

MDK:Easy, grasshopper! I’m not as concerned as you may believe, with outward, appearances; but then you do have “priors” for jumping to conclusions, and reading more into a post, then what is there Is that plank still in your eye? In my thinking, I was making an observation about how the so called “vicar of Christ”, does not dress like his supposed predecessor And why would I attack the Bride of Christ, which because of Christ’s finished work on the Cross, I am a member of? It would appear, that the catholic position is, “If you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us.” Isn’t persecution part of being a Christian? And it is because I am not obsessed with what people wear, that I am comfortable with wearing Levi’s, and a nice shirt:thumbsup:I have been to churches wwher people were spending more time,“rubberneckin’”, checking out how others were dressed, than listening to the sermon/message: Is ther a manual on dress codes for church attendance? If so, when did it originate, and why? Here’s something to ponder: let’s say that one of my many catholic friends were to invite me to a mass; and I showed up wearing Levi’s and a nice button-down shirt Would I be turned away, and why? Did Jesus ever turn anyone away?

 

[1beleevr]

JRKH: And it is your statement in post#666, that most of us non-catholics have trouble grasping; that the apostolic succession was pristine nd pure, all the way down the line(so to speak). The eek!, was for you drawing post #666!

 

[Peter_J]

Tell me something, when the disciples joined Christ, were they wearing tuxedos; were the “commoners”, who flocked to see and hear him, decked out in three piece suits? I was simply contrasting then and now! Peter didn’t wear this type of vestment, did he The Sanhedrin, however did wear similar clothing! No offense, just didn’t realize you were so sensitive

SteveGC and 1beleevr,

I have a slightly different take on 1beleevr’s earlier post: I think it’s just a little behind the times. The contrast worked a lot better in the 16th century – in fact, I recall seeing a picture drawn by one of the reformers, contrasting a very lowly Christ riding on the donkey, vs. a 16th century Pope riding in splendor and looking very much like an earthly king.

 

[Peter_J]

MDK:Easy, grasshopper! I’m not as concerned as you may believe, with outward, appearances; but then you do have “priors” for jumping to conclusions, and reading more into a post, then what is there Is that plank still in your eye? In my thinking, I was making an observation about how the so called “vicar of Christ”, does not dress like his supposed predecessor And why would I attack the Bride of Christ, which because of Christ’s finished work on the Cross, I am a member of? It would appear, that the catholic position is, “If you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us.” Isn’t persecution part of being a Christian? And it is because I am not obsessed with what people wear, that I am comfortable with wearing Levi’s, and a nice shirt:thumbsup:I have been to churches wwher people were spending more time,“rubberneckin’”, checking out how others were dressed, than listening to the sermon/message: Is ther a manual on dress codes for church attendance? If so, when did it originate, and why? Here’s something to ponder: let’s say that one of my many catholic friends were to invite me to a mass; and I showed up wearing Levi’s and a nice button-down shirt Would I be turned away, and why? Did Jesus ever turn anyone away?

1beleevr,

This ^^ is a very interesting post. The only thing is, I don’t think I read the post that you are responding to. And since I really don’t want to go back and all of the 65 posts that MDK has made on this thread, would it be possible for you to quote the one you are responding to?

It would appear, that the catholic position is, “If you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us.”

I don’t think that’s fair at all. “If you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us” is as much the Catholic position as it is the Anglican position, the Lutheran position, the Methodist position, etc. That is to say, you can find people in each group who have that attitude. It appears that you have blinders on your eyes to keep you from seeing that there are also a lot of us Catholics who don’t have that attitude.

“Not every priest, nun, or other Catholic speaks for the Church. Catholicism is a big tent. There are lots of people inside of it, and not all of them are well informed. Some of them are flat-out wrong.”

• taken from a This Rock article by Ronald J. Rychlak

 

[po18guy]

The Bible isn’t the Catholic Book, it is the Word of God that would have been read if it was canonized or not. I don’t have to fool anyone, nor do I attempt to. I look to God for everything. Read James 1:5…please.

Note that God chose His Church to assemble and test the canonicity of all the scripture that was put forth. Since, as you say, it is His Word, He chose His Church to test scripture. Without Pope Damasus and the Church Council along with him, you would be reading gnostic “gospels” and many other aberrant writings. So, like it or not, the canon of scripture is an act of God made through His Spirit-inspired Church. By the leading of the Holy Spirit, the CC placed its stamp of approval on every word you read in scripture. You should rejoice over this, because without the Lord’s Catholic Church, Christianity would no longer exist on earth. Ah, but Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevail.

 

[1beleevr]

Peter J: Good answer to post#671;I never really looked at it in that context I was just struck by the contrast between “men of the cloth”, so to speak, and those of the NT. We know from reading the OT, that Levite priests wore ornate garments; but think about Jesus’s life from start to finish. Born in the most humble way(manger), to a carpenter and a peasant girl; worked as a carpenter, dressed modestly(probably), and died like a criminal(although He wasn’t. We say that we want to emulate Christ, yet we want to enjoy all the fruits of this earth also. I really don’t have time to search all of MDK’s posts either, but take my word for it, he does jump before he checks the depth of the water, on occasion. And I wasn’t really condemning all catholics, by stating the “if you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us.” But if you read through the posts, you will see a large number of catholic posters, who use phrases like,“why do you keep attacking the Bride of Christ?” Speaking for myself, only, I do not waste time, worrying whether or not people agree with me; I am too busy doing the Lord’s work(feeding the homeless, street ministry, visiting the shut-ins, etc) to stop and argue about hate and discontent!

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks, 1beleevr, and thanks also for the clarification about the “if you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us” attitude. (For my part, I readily admit that some Catholics do take that attitude, so I guess we kind of agree.)

 

[MDK]

MDK:Easy, grasshopper! I’m not as concerned as you may believe, with outward, appearances; but then you do have “priors” for jumping to conclusions, and reading more into a post, then what is there Is that plank still in your eye? In my thinking, I was making an observation about how the so called “vicar of Christ”, does not dress like his supposed predecessor And why would I attack the Bride of Christ, which because of Christ’s finished work on the Cross, I am a member of? It would appear, that the catholic position is, “If you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us.” Isn’t persecution part of being a Christian? And it is because I am not obsessed with what people wear, that I am comfortable with wearing Levi’s, and a nice shirt:thumbsup:I have been to churches wwher people were spending more time,“rubberneckin’”, checking out how others were dressed, than listening to the sermon/message: Is ther a manual on dress codes for church attendance? If so, when did it originate, and why? Here’s something to ponder: let’s say that one of my many catholic friends were to invite me to a mass; and I showed up wearing Levi’s and a nice button-down shirt Would I be turned away, and why? Did Jesus ever turn anyone away?

Please be more decent and honest in your posts. In reality, you have a lot to learn from us, but haven’t really offered net benefit from your presence here. Although, I would welcome such. So, that you can’t or won’t understand what I write is no grounds to criticize. However, since you do this with Christ’s Church, then why not those in His Church. Your ignorance is unfortunately great. The statements I write are well founded, even though you don’t understand them. Your entire statement was based on appearances, and false comparison to the Pharisees because of this appearance… and falsehood is a tool you’re still using in your post above. For instance, there is only one Bride of Christ, and you are not a formal member. Did you really think that Christ is a polygamist? Please raise your game a little, for your own sake. Does God’s eighth Commandment mean nothing to you?

 

[SteveGC]

The Bible isn’t the Catholic Book, it is the Word of God that would have been read if it was canonized or not.

IMO, this is a very presumptuous thing to believe. And it is also extremely easy to say, because today, you have the benefit of actually possessing a Bible. As such, you don’t realize how plausible the alternative could have been – that you could have existed in a world without an inspired canon of Scripture. I think many believe that even without The Church, inspired Scripture would have come to be, but I completely disagree with that idea.

There is no way our Bible would be here today if it weren’t for the Spirit-led Church, and I find it deeply disrespectful for “Christians” of today to embrace and exalt the Book, and simultaneously thumb their noses at The Church who delivered it.

deeply disrespectful.

Bottom line…if you want The Catholic Church to go away, then toss out your Bible too, because it’s useless without Her. That much has been proven over and over. The two are inseparable.

 

[MDK]

Peter J: Good answer to post#671;I never really looked at it in that context I was just struck by the contrast between “men of the cloth”, so to speak, and those of the NT. We know from reading the OT, that Levite priests wore ornate garments; but think about Jesus’s life from start to finish. Born in the most humble way(manger), to a carpenter and a peasant girl; worked as a carpenter, dressed modestly(probably), and died like a criminal(although He wasn’t. We say that we want to emulate Christ, yet we want to enjoy all the fruits of this earth also. I really don’t have time to search all of MDK’s posts either, but take my word for it, he does jump before he checks the depth of the water, on occasion. And I wasn’t really condemning all catholics, by stating the “if you don’t agree with us, you hate us, or are attacking us.” But if you read through the posts, you will see a large number of catholic posters, who use phrases like,“why do you keep attacking the Bride of Christ?” Speaking for myself, only, I do not waste time, worrying whether or not people agree with me; I am too busy doing the Lord’s work(feeding the homeless, street ministry, visiting the shut-ins, etc) to stop and argue about hate and discontent!

Does God’s eighth Commandment mean nothing to you? I can forgive, because I believe you do this out of ignorance or lack of understanding. What seems to bother the unsure is the confidence of someone who really loves Catholicism. However, it would be wrong not to have this confidence, just as it’s wrong for you to actually oppose Catholicism… for your own good.

You can disagree all you want without attacking. However, much of what you write is attacking and not done in the decency of simply disagreeing. That you are consistently on the wrong side of the discussion is no reason to falsely accuse another (or others). Please live up to a higher standard of decency, and see what happens.

 

[MDK]

P.S. I was kidding, of course, when I said that Catholics and Protestants are both guilty of that double-standard. It’s really just the Protestants that do that.

Yes, it’s just that good quality humor usually illuminates some truth, rather than casting dispersions.

Perhaps something helpful, like the following:

Q. Why was Christ the perfect Man?

A. It was second nature to Him.