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epan
Guest
I am curious. Is there any scriptural basis for the requirement of confession?
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inkaneer
Guest
But Baptism of desire is applied to those who have not been baptized by water and who, because of circumstances cannot be baptized with water prior to entering eternity. Dismas, the good thief, who was crucified with Jesus is a good example. But can baptism of desire be applied to those already validly baptized with water? I don’t think so.
I didn’t avoid anything. This isn’t a new disagreement between Catholics and Lutherans.
Rehashing it won’t change it. Clearly, however, Cardinal Ratzinger holds a different view than you do.
Jon
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Azygos
Guest
I didn’t say your Church was a complete failure did I. If you want me to agree that it’s lacking in deficiency then I can do that. You still avoided my questions and your still maintaining avoidance of my questions. You can call it rehashing past dilemmas if you want but I’m new to this. So why don’t you sell me on being a Lutheran. You obviously believe it’s more beneficial to be a Lutheran or else you would be in a different church. Just humor me and answer my questions… They are honest uneducated questions that really baffle me…
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inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278
Lutheran sacraments are not valid because Lutheran priests/ministers are not validly ordained.
"Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion."
Do not confuse the words “sacred actions” for valid sacraments or valid liturgy. Also, even if “defectus ordinis” is translated as deficiency that does not provide you with any grounds to assume the “I’m okay, you’re okay” That is prevalent in protestantism. A deficiency is still a deficiency. The statement makes no reference to the severity of the deficiency as being major or minor. I would think that a denial of Catholic dogma such as the insistence that the Written Tradition is somehow superior to the Oral Tradition of the church is a major deficiency. So in a nutshell it comes down to this. We will not compromise and meet you half way. You left us, we did not leave you. If you want unity then it has to be complete unity. Complete unity is only possible by the acceptance of the full deposit of faith that resides in the Catholic Church alone. If you look at the history of the church there never was a time when the church compromised with heretical teachings. The Holy Spirit did not allow it then and will not allow it now. So what makes you think the Holy Spirit will suddenly change and allow the church to compromise this time?
Originally Posted by Holly3278
Lutheran sacraments are not valid because Lutheran priests/ministers are not validly ordained.
Yes but I think you read too much into it. For instance in para 107 we find this sentence:
"Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion."
Do not confuse the words “sacred actions” for valid sacraments or valid liturgy. Also, even if “defectus ordinis” is translated as deficiency that does not provide you with any grounds to assume the “I’m okay, you’re okay” That is prevalent in protestantism. A deficiency is still a deficiency. The statement makes no reference to the severity of the deficiency as being major or minor. I would think that a denial of Catholic dogma such as the insistence that the Written Tradition is somehow superior to the Oral Tradition of the church is a major deficiency. So in a nutshell it comes down to this. We will not compromise and meet you half way. You left us, we did not leave you. If you want unity then it has to be complete unity. Complete unity is only possible by the acceptance of the full deposit of faith that resides in the Catholic Church alone. If you look at the history of the church there never was a time when the church compromised with heretical teachings. The Holy Spirit did not allow it then and will not allow it now. So what makes you think the Holy Spirit will suddenly change and allow the church to compromise this time?
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Bonocorium
Guest
Heaven with invincible ignorance? So if the heretic did all the research in the world and thru no fault of his own, decided that the Catholic church is not the true church (ie. Their conscience doesnt allow them to think of it as the true church), then the heretic can reach Heaven?? So all the schismatic and heretic apologists whose conscience tells them that the Catholic church is not true church, they can go to Heaven while they outrightly reject the true church and even attack it?
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katholikos12
Guest
No one but God knows the hearts of mankind.
Invincible ignorance seems like its the Church’s official term for God’s grace being extended in circumstances in which people cannot surely know if someone is truly ignorant of the truth.
Therefore yes, God can forgive even those who attack His church; because He is God and He loves us that much.
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Azygos
Guest
It’s sad to say but most people are not invincibly ignorant… Most people suppress the truth and run from it because they don’t like its consequences. Now if a heretic was brought up a heretic through no fault of his own then I imagine some ignorance would apply. If this same heretic did the research and rejected the truth because he didn’t like it then that would obviously take away that invincible ignorance. A lot of people reject the truth and run from common sense while willingly accepting absurdity. It’s a choice just like Atheism and after a while you have to ask at what point are people accountable for their ignorance…
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COPLAND_3
Guest
I believe that God, when judging a devoted and holy Christian of a Protestant denomination who has never discovered Catholicism in a positive manner either by it being suppressed from them or some circumstance that hinders them as a truth seeker, and then judges a Catholic who has been given great teachings and all the freedom to exercise their faith, I cannot imagine God sending that Protestant to Hell who dearly loves the Lord because Catholicism did not fall into their lap. I see God’s great mercy and willingness to accept exceptions under unfortunate circumstances, such as permitting a baptism of desire for some, and I see that same mercy given especially to a humble servant of a misguided teaching of the Gospel. That means an honest ignorance, not a hard-headed defiant ignorance. There are plenty of holy Protestants who sacrifice so much more for their faith than simply taking 20 minutes out of their schedule to go to the confessional. If those misguided Protestants understood Catholicism then they would be enjoying the Sacrament of Confession themselves, and I think God knows that and judges that fairly.
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mardukm
Guest
The only sure list I know of of mortal sins are willful disobedience to the Ten Commandments, and the Seven deadly sins. I think HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory added drunk driving to the list (probably a subset of “Thou shalt not murder,” though).
There is no list of Venial Sins. Venial sins are defined simply as those sins that are not mortal, and Scripture tells us that there are sins that are unto death (mortal) and sins that are not. The “Venial Sin” category is very amorphous.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother JonNC,
Blessings,
Marduk
I actually agree with your reading of the text. But I also agree with brother Inkaneer that a ministry that is capable of granting a life of Grace must be othodox in Faith. “Sola scriptura” (for one) is not orthodox. I know that Lutherans have a greater appreciation for Sacred Tradition than most Protestants, but the orthodox position of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches understands Sacred Tradition as a whole to be the rule of Faith, not just Scripture. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches consider Scripture as simply part of Sacred Tradition (the most important part, to be sure, but still a part).
Blessings,
Marduk
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Stilldreamn
Guest
If you truly want to help, pray for us. The Holy Spirit is most effective at removing roadblocks in His own time.
I’m not reading anything into it. I’m reading what Catholic bishops said.
I never implied that this was the Catholic position. That said, I am willing to accept the validity of Catholic ordination.
And that is the Catholic position, at least according to the bishops.
I’m not asking you to. I leave the dialogue regarding this up to our leaders.
I didn’t leave anyone. I’m a life-long Lutheran.
Find the word compromise in anything I’ve said. Real reconciliation will come, led by the Spirit (essentially Pope Benedict’s words when he visited the Lutheran Church in Rome) not through compromise, but through agreement.
Jon
Of course it is, by the authority of the verba, the words of Christ Himself.
You can’t. Neither can I. But the Sprit can, through His power at the verba spoekn by your priest and my pastor. Both have valid ordination.
He could were it at one time ordained.
The Church, because Christ said so. Those who are of the ordained priesthood.
The Church.
No. He was ordained. I was there.
You can try, though without ordination within the Church (and we are most assuredly within the Church), it seems a fruitless exercise.
Amen.
Jon
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katholikos12
Guest
Where can I find the scriptures that say differentiate between sins unto death and sins that are not?
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Mark1124
Guest
“There is such a thing as deadly sin…All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”
-1 John 5:16-17
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katholikos12
Guest
Fantastic. Thank you.
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inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
Did someone just proclaim him a minister one day…
Similarly with Lutheranism it becomes a matter of valid Apostolic Succession only the Lutheran case is much simpler than the Anglican. Unlike with the Anglicans, there were no bishops who left the Church for Lutheranism. So Lutheranism never had valid Apostolic Succession like the Anglicans did. True there were priests who became Lutheran but no priest possesses Apostolic Succession. That rests only in the office of bishop. So what you call an ordination in Lutheranism lacks validity because there is no Apostolic Succession present in Lutheranism. When a Lutheran minister converts to Catholicism he does not automatically become a Catholic priest. He becomes a layman. He can apply for the priesthood and if accepted and he completes the required course of training, he can be then validly ordained as a priest empowered to offer the sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy. But until then his Lutheran ordination, while Lutherans may respect it, is invalid in the Catholic Church.
Did someone just proclaim him a minister one day…
But protestant ordination is not the same as Catholic ordination. Case in point is the Anglicans. When Henry VIII broke from Catholicism there were validly ordained bishops who sided with him. These bishops had valid Apostolic Succession and as such could ordain priests and consecrate other bishops. However, the Catholic Church does not recognize the ordination of any Anglican priest or bishop today as being valid. Why? Because the Anglicans changed their ordination liturgy to the effect that ministers ordained under the new liturgy were not empowered as priests. Their ordination was therefore invalid and there was no valid Apostolic Succession. Over a hundred years passed and during that time all of the validly ordained bishops and priests died. It was only then that the Anglican Church changed its ordination liturgy back to the former form. But it was too late as the remaining bishops, lacking valid Apostolic Succession could not transfer what they themselves did not have.
Similarly with Lutheranism it becomes a matter of valid Apostolic Succession only the Lutheran case is much simpler than the Anglican. Unlike with the Anglicans, there were no bishops who left the Church for Lutheranism. So Lutheranism never had valid Apostolic Succession like the Anglicans did. True there were priests who became Lutheran but no priest possesses Apostolic Succession. That rests only in the office of bishop. So what you call an ordination in Lutheranism lacks validity because there is no Apostolic Succession present in Lutheranism. When a Lutheran minister converts to Catholicism he does not automatically become a Catholic priest. He becomes a layman. He can apply for the priesthood and if accepted and he completes the required course of training, he can be then validly ordained as a priest empowered to offer the sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy. But until then his Lutheran ordination, while Lutherans may respect it, is invalid in the Catholic Church.
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