Protestants in Heaven without Confession?

[paul_c]

Are you saying that Protestants are doomed to hell?
I also believe in purgatory. And I do not want to spend a long time there and thus want somebody to pray for me to leave. Those who don’t believe in purgatory may be there longer because nobody is praying for them.

Are any priests commenting on this thread?

I did not say that Protestants are doomed to hell. But they suffer from some very real disadvantages in the economy of salvation. First of all, where their views differ from what the church teaches, they are in error. We know for instance, that certain Protestant churches approve of abortion, divorce, and same sex marriage and that will lead the individual away from the holiness that is required to enter heaven. Secondly, they separate themselves from some or all of the grace giving sacraments, most particularly the Eucharist and confession.

As for purgatory, remember, you need to be in the state of grace to enter purgatory and that requires either the sacraments, invincible ignorance coupled with a moral life or perfect contrition. Of the three, partaking of the sacraments is by far the easiest for most people.

 

[paul_c]

The Catholic Church believes protestants are Christians because they preserved the sacraments of Baptism and Marriage. It would be a bit counter productive to label us Christians but then say we can’t go to heaven.

Catholics label anyone as a Christian who has valid baptism. (with the correct form and content). We believe that anyone with valid baptism enters into the state of grace and if they stay that way (in the state of grace) until death, that they will indeed enter heaven.

My own personal belief is that I am saved by grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8) by accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior in payment for my sins as a gift offered by God. Once you’re saved and provided you don’t blasphemy the Holy Spirit or commit apostasy eternal salvation is yours.
In Catholic terms this translate to living a good and Christian life with that ignorance thingy mijig. But we also recognize infant baptism as an important part of this.

Well, there’s certainly some truth to what you say. You are saved by grace through faith when you are baptized and if you stay in the state of grace until death, you will be saved. But there is more to staying in the state of grace than simply not blaspheming the holy Spirit. You must avoid all mortal sin. These would include all serious sins which you intentionally commit knowing that they separate you from God’s grace. This would include murder, adultery, etc. If you do commit a mortal sin, to reconcile with God, you must either partake in sacramental confession or exhibit perfect contrition, where you are sorry for your sins because they offend God.

 

[inkaneer]

Utter and complete garbage, inspired by anti-Orthodox bigotry and hatred-nothing more, nothing less, nothing else, and not worthy of being stated by a Catholic Christian. BTW, you’re not even correct on the facts–the Hagia Sophia has not served as a mosque since 1931.

Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? But the fact remains that the Orthodox lost their cathedral church which the Moslems then desecrated and turned into a mosque. That this occurred shortly after the Orthodox rejected reunification is a fact of history. I see divine retribution there. It would not be the first time God used others to punish His people. The Jews lost two Temples the very same way.

As for your vitriolic name calling, it speaks to your character. Can I conclude that you are then inspired by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred as well? ‘Anti-Orthodox’ I am not but I am not going to pander to the Orthodox either. The Orthodox have a long history of being anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic as exemplified when the Orthodox Patriarch refused to pray with Pope JPII. Why would anyone, let alone a Patriarch, refuse to pray with another? Simply, the Orthodox have a taboo about praying with Catholics. That he finally did so at the urgings of those around him was only to avoid a larger public relations nightmare. So keep your name calling to yourself. You lost your cathedral church to Islam, that should be enough to concern you.

 

[inkaneer]

After I retired in 2005 I picketed a locak abortion clinic on a weekly basis until it closed. Many of the fellow picketers were non-Catholics who were also . in my opinion, serving the Lord. The abortionist, on the other hand, was a practicing Catholic who sent his daughter to an all girls Catholic school. Now who will and who will not get to Heaven.

I had heard that the eucharistic ministers were instructed to not give him communion.

Some will argue that if one does not abide by the Catholic Church’s teachings one is not truly Catholic. In the case of the abortionist, his participation in providing abortions is an automatic excommunication. He is therefore not Catholic. Hopefully his daughter will benefit from Catholic teaching and possibly influence her father so that one day the abortionist can turn away from his sin.

 

[katholikos12]

Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? But the fact remains that the Orthodox lost their cathedral church which the Moslems then desecrated and turned into a mosque. That this occurred shortly after the Orthodox rejected reunification is a fact of history. I see divine retribution there. It would not be the first time God used others to punish His people. The Jews lost two Temples the very same way.

As for your vitriolic name calling, it speaks to your character. Can I conclude that you are then inspired by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred as well? ‘Anti-Orthodox’ I am not but I am not going to pander to the Orthodox either. The Orthodox have a long history of being anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic as exemplified when the Orthodox Patriarch refused to pray with Pope JPII. Why would anyone, let alone a Patriarch, refuse to pray with another? Simply, the Orthodox have a taboo about praying with Catholics. That he finally did so at the urgings of those around him was only to avoid a larger public relations nightmare. So keep your name calling to yourself. You lost your cathedral church to Islam, that should be enough to concern you.

This I have found to be true as well. I started researching the CC for myself in June-ish and in that time even I have found the propensity of the Roman CC to be very welcoming and accepting of Orthodox, but the Orthodox come across as bitter and vindictive and unwilling to compromise. I was a fundamentalist until I found a history book facepalm – so ignorant; and the Orthodox seem to be separated by choice now and unwilling to compromise to come into communion with Rome. I find that several of the attacks that I would even use as a fundamentalist against Roman CC being used by the Orthodox and many of them are simply false accusations. Perhaps not intentionally but simply in need of more information to get the whole truth.

in short, I approached the CC as an anti-Catholic and found Rome to welcoming and the Orthodox to be biting.

 

[inkaneer]

The fact that the Orthodox survived the most murderous regimes the world has ever seen is a testament that “the gates of hell will not prevail.”

I rejoice in them and their survival. I am in awe of their generations of steadfast faith.

But how did they survive? By sleeping with the murders? The Bolshevik Communists and the ROC were partners in wreaking havoc in Russia. And before the Bolsheviks there were the Czars. How about the Greeks and their servitude to the Byzantine emperor initially and then to the Ottomans and today the Islamists. Orthodox enjoy a much more cozy relationship with anti christians than they do with fellow christians.

 

[inkaneer]

Better coming from you than me.

Instead, and this is my final post along this line in this thread, I offer another document from USCCB regarding Catholic/Lutheran Dialogue on the issue of Papal primacy.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/dialogue-with-others/ecumenical/lutheran/attitudes-papal-primacy.cfm

Jon

Lengthy document that really changes little. Basically there are areas where agreement can be made but there are areas in which no agreement can be effected. As long as those areas where no agreement is possible remain then nothing has changed. I think it is significant that the Lutherans will now admit that there is a need for authority in the church or else why would they consider the issue of primacy? Still primacy must have a basis and the most obvious one is that provided by scripture"

“18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”
[Mt 16:18-19]

"15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, "Feed my lambs."16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.” [John 21:15-17]

 

[parable1]

As I read in a post sin is sin does scripture say that there is a numbering of whats worset and what is least bad?

 

[katholikos12]

As I read in a post sin is sin does scripture say that there is a numbering of whats worset and what is least bad?

Yes 1 John 5 speaks of sin that is worse than others. There are several places in the NT that list offenses that the church has defined as Mortal sins and these are sins of a grave matter that often destroy relationships as opposed to just disruption of relationships.

 

[RyanBlack]

Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? But the fact remains that the Orthodox lost their cathedral church which the Moslems then desecrated and turned into a mosque. That this occurred shortly after the Orthodox rejected reunification is a fact of history. I see divine retribution there. It would not be the first time God used others to punish His people. The Jews lost two Temples the very same way.

And for which sins of Rome was the loss of all of Africa (which was under Rome) to Islam divine retribution? For which sins of Rome was the loss of numerous churches, including some cathedrals, to Protestantism divine retribution? For which sins of Rome is the slow death of Catholicism in much of Europe that is going on today divine retribution?

As for your vitriolic name calling, it speaks to your character. Can I conclude that you are then inspired by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred as well? ‘Anti-Orthodox’ I am not but I am not going to pander to the Orthodox either. The Orthodox have a long history of being anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic as exemplified when the Orthodox Patriarch refused to pray with Pope JPII. Why would anyone, let alone a Patriarch, refuse to pray with another? Simply, the Orthodox have a taboo about praying with Catholics. That he finally did so at the urgings of those around him was only to avoid a larger public relations nightmare. So keep your name calling to yourself. You lost your cathedral church to Islam, that should be enough to concern you.

For someone who has no problem dishing it out, you sure can’t take it. You really think you’re in a position to lecture anyone about “vitriolic name calling” and to make accusations about someone’s character? You should go take a long, hard look in the mirror. Your hate-filled, anti-anybody-but-Catholics postings are shameful, and are not of the mind of the Church (anyone who has read what the Catechism has to say about the relationship of the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Churches and to Protestants can easily see this is true). Unfortunately, some people who read them will draw incorrect conclusions about the Catholic faith, so they are also a source of scandal, and may actually prevent someone from coming to the Church.

Yes, there are some Orthodox who have a history of being anti-Catholic, anti-Latin, and anti-Western. You should not make assumptions about all Orthodox on the basis of the attitudes and actions of some. There are also plenty of Catholics who are anti-Orthodox, anti-Greek, and anti-Eastern. Furthermore, there has also been within the Catholic Church a history of refusing to pray with non-Catholics. Clearly, this is not the final say on Catholic commitment to reconcilation with the Orthodox, since the actions of the Popes of the last fifty years (at least) show that the Catholic Church has a strong commitment to working towards the restoration of communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Finally, you would be incorrect to conlude that I am motivated by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred, as you are incorrect to say that I lost my cathedral church to Islam, since I am Catholic, not Orthodox.

 

[RyanBlack]

Scandalous and shameful as well.

 

[RyanBlack]

But how did they survive? By sleeping with the murders? The Bolshevik Communists and the ROC were partners in wreaking havoc in Russia. And before the Bolsheviks there were the Czars. How about the Greeks and their servitude to the Byzantine emperor initially and then to the Ottomans and today the Islamists. Orthodox enjoy a much more cozy relationship with anti christians than they do with fellow christians.

You really should beg forgivness of our Orthodox brothers and sisters for this thoroughly despicable post. Furthermore, you need to cease your biased, selective reading of history, since Catholic hierarchs–including even a few Popes–have at times been far too cozy with secular power.

 

[TEPO]

I agree with inkaneer… He’s got it right.

 

[parable1]

here is what 1 John 5 says
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

from there what is the one sin? Also what sin doesnt lead to death?

 

[paul_c]

Let’s get back on path here.

The question is can Protestant’s get to heaven without confession. This question is not applicable in the same way to the Orthodox since they retain Apostolic succession and valid Holy Orders and believe in the same view of the economy of salvation that apply to Catholics. The Orthodox therefore have no impediments to Heaven that are not shared by Catholics.

The reason that Orthodoxy came up at all is that JonNC stated that if the Orthodox came into full communion with Rome, then he would know that it was the one true faith and would immediately join RCIA. I pointed out that 30% of the Eastern Churchs were already in full communion with Rome but in retrospect, I think this misses the real point. In terms of what it takes to get to heaven, the Orthodox and Catholic Church are in full agreement, regardless of their views of the primacy of The Pope. And that is what really should rule the day. If Jon would join the Orthodox in his quest for the truth, he would be much closer to Catholicism than he is as a Lutheran and would have no impediments to salvation. We don’t care what he calls himself, we just want him to enter heaven.

As for Protestants, they too have a path to heaven, but its through the Catholic Church. Its not that they have to actually join the Catholic Church bodily, although that would be the surest path. What they have to do is what the Church teaches. They must be baptized and enter the state of grace. True Christians do that. Then they have to stay in the state of grace until death. Whether they call themselves Catholic or not, this means loving God and Neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. Most Christians would recognize the goal of Christianity is to love so being a Christian of any stripe is helpful toward salvation. True, they deprive themselves of the sacramental sources of grace that would help them do this, but yet it is still open to them. And of course, if they do commit mortal sin, without sacramental confession, they need to achieve perfect contrition (the sorrow of sins solely because they offend God) whereas a Catholic can be absolved with imperfect contrition if he is willing to confess sacramentally. This is a high hurdle of course, but again, not impossible.

The more I think about this vexing problem, the more I recognize that for many, Protestant Christianity is indeed a path to the fullness of Truth that exists in the Catholic Church. Just look at how many converts are on this website. For many, their faith journey started in non=Catholic Christianity and as they continued to search for the whole truth, they found their way home to Rome. Even if they never make that final conversion, the hope is that they get close enough that they will achieve perfect contrition on their deathbed and join in the love that Jesus offers.

 

[paul_c]

here is what 1 John 5 says
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

from there what is the one sin? Also what sin doesnt lead to death?

This speaks to the difference between mortal and venial sin. Mortal sin is about grave matter, must be intentional, and with the knowledge that it is sin. when we commit moral sin, we fall from the state of grace. There is no published list of mortal sins because the intent and knowledge are part of the equation and will differ from individual to individual and situation to situation.

Venial sin is sin that wounds but does not break our friendship with God. It is less severe in nature and not done to harm anyone.

 

[benjohnson]

But how did they survive? By sleeping with the murders?

May I not mistake a coffin of a dead christian for a polemical soapbox.

 

[JonNC]

Let’s get back on path here.

The question is can Protestant’s get to heaven without confession. This question is not applicable in the same way to the Orthodox since they retain Apostolic succession and valid Holy Orders and believe in the same view of the economy of salvation that apply to Catholics. The Orthodox therefore have no impediments to Heaven that are not shared by Catholics.

The reason that Orthodoxy came up at all is that JonNC stated that if the Orthodox came into full communion with Rome, then he would know that it was the one true faith and would immediately join RCIA. I pointed out that 30% of the Eastern Churchs were already in full communion with Rome but in retrospect, I think this misses the real point. In terms of what it takes to get to heaven, the Orthodox and Catholic Church are in full agreement, regardless of their views of the primacy of The Pope. And that is what really should rule the day. If Jon would join the Orthodox in his quest for the truth, he would be much closer to Catholicism than he is as a Lutheran and would have no impediments to salvation. We don’t care what he calls himself, we just want him to enter heaven.

As for Protestants, they too have a path to heaven, but its through the Catholic Church. Its not that they have to actually join the Catholic Church bodily, although that would be the surest path. What they have to do is what the Church teaches. They must be baptized and enter the state of grace. True Christians do that. Then they have to stay in the state of grace until death. Whether they call themselves Catholic or not, this means loving God and Neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. Most Christians would recognize the goal of Christianity is to love so being a Christian of any stripe is helpful toward salvation. True, they deprive themselves of the sacramental sources of grace that would help them do this, but yet it is still open to them. And of course, if they do commit mortal sin, without sacramental confession, they need to achieve perfect contrition (the sorrow of sins solely because they offend God) whereas a Catholic can be absolved with imperfect contrition if he is willing to confess sacramentally. This is a high hurdle of course, but again, not impossible.

The more I think about this vexing problem, the more I recognize that for many, Protestant Christianity is indeed a path to the fullness of Truth that exists in the Catholic Church. Just look at how many converts are on this website. For many, their faith journey started in non=Catholic Christianity and as they continued to search for the whole truth, they found their way home to Rome. Even if they never make that final conversion, the hope is that they get close enough that they will achieve perfect contrition on their deathbed and join in the love that Jesus offers.

Paul,
Nothing comes through more clearly in your conversations with me than a strident defense of your faith with charity, and your sincere love and concern for your fellow Christians.

Thank you,
Jon

 

[benjohnson]

Paul,
Nothing comes through more clearly in your conversations with me than a strident defense of your faith with charity, and your sincere love and concern for your fellow Christians.

Thank you,
Jon

Jon, very well said!

If I may add for myself:

Paul, if you fail to reach me, it is not your fault. You’re a fine ambassador of your faith in Christ.

The idea that “All roads lead to Rome” is and always will be very tempting - speaking only for myself, what holds this Lutheran up short is the idea that salvation doesn’t require the very-good things that the Catholic church is known for. For me it is simple; A hearty church, a bible, a wise pastor, children at the alter-rail, and proper sacraments is all I ask to frame my faith in Christ.

That said, I pray for your continued evangelization - that if you don’t reach me, that you reach others.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? But the fact remains that the Orthodox lost their cathedral church which the Moslems then desecrated and turned into a mosque. That this occurred shortly after the Orthodox rejected reunification is a fact of history. I see divine retribution there. It would not be the first time God used others to punish His people. The Jews lost two Temples the very same way.

And for which sins of Rome was the loss of all of Africa (which was under Rome) to Islam divine retribution? For which sins of Rome was the loss of numerous churches, including some cathedrals, to Protestantism divine retribution? For which sins of Rome is the slow death of Catholicism in much of Europe that is going on today divine retribution?

And for which sins of Rome was the loss of all of Africa (which was under Rome) to Islam divine retribution? For which sins of Rome was the loss of numerous churches, including some cathedrals, to Protestantism divine retribution? For which sins of Rome is the slow death of Catholicism in much of Europe that is going on today divine retribution?

Africa was under the Patriarch of Alexandria, and the emperor at Constantinople. It was never under Rome although St. Mark was sent there by Peter from Rome. As such the church there is known as the Coptic Church and was a target for the Eastern church due to the Copts insistence on maintaining independence from the Emperor. But what separates the Coptic Church from the Orthodox is that the Copts never lost their cathedral church to the Islamists.

As for the protestants I think there was some divine retribution involved. Morality suffered during this time with some rogue clergy to include bishops and yes, even popes. But what I always like to point out to my protestant separated brethern is that during this time no pope ever taught error. Protestant theologians have researched and investigated this era extensively in a vain attempt to find one instance when a pope taught error. They found none. Nada, Zip, Zilch, big Zero !!!. Now we can’t say that of our Orthodox brethern now can we? After all, Nestorius was the bishop of Constaninople, was he not? .