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Nicea325
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May God bless you in your spiritual journey.
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Elizabeth502
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Correct. And certainly anyone raised Catholic should know these theological truths instinctively without question. Jesus does not need Eucharist to actualize Himself within the sons and daughters of His Father (i.e., everyone). Eucharist is a separate question from that: it is a particular variant of Jesus’ presence.
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ltwin
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Jesus ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God. He intercedes on our behalf. He asked the Father to send us the Holy Spirit, which was poured out on the Church at Pentecost, when the Church sought God in prayer. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Where the Holy Spirit is, there is Christ. God is sovereign and if he wants to manifest himself bodily, then of course he can, but I don’t think he has to be manifested bodily to be present among us.
Yes, Jesus is present at my church’s worship services. This Sunday I was a little late to church. When I got there praise and worship was happening, and I was a little shocked at what I saw. This woman who sits on the other side of the church and walked over to where my mom sat and grabbed her in a bear hug and she was praying for my mother who is going through MANY transitions and battles in her life right now. To the left there was a crowd of people praying for a young man in a wheel chair believing that God strengthen and heal his body. There was other people around the church praying and interceding with/for others seeking and needing God. Later on, the Lord placed a burden on two ministers that there was someone wanting to make a decision for Christ and saying that the Holy Spirit was drawing them to himself. Christ was definitely present. He was healing. He was restoring. He was breaking and humbling some of us who needed it. He was speaking to hearts and minds. His presence was tangible.
I think that a lot of churches today suffer from a lack of prayer in their services. There is so much focus on the music, on the preaching, and on making sure that the service doesn’t last too long. But Jesus did not say that his house would be a house of music or preaching or teaching. It would be a house of prayer. Look in the book of Acts. When the Spirit fell there was prayer. God inhabits the praises of his people (Psalm 22:3). We need more prayer in the body of Christ. God will manifest himself when his people pray.
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racing59
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I totaly agree and will take this one step further. The Body of Jesus needs the Word and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in thier Worship. I have seen so many miracles happen in these Churches that Worship in the Spirit, becausse the REMA of Jesus is there. So many signs and wonders are happening in those Churches.
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CMatt25
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So you don’t have to wonder. No I personally wouldn’t shrug and turn away if He showed up in the flesh at my front door. And I would no longer be walking by faith but He would truly be within my sight! Alleulia! After greeting Him I’d invite Him in. I might get around to asking Him what His truth really is to sort out the differences that His people of faith disagree on. Of course I’m envisioning Him in his sandals and if He showed up right now I’d be in His presence in army green cargo shorts, a royal blue tee, and barefoot. But not a doubt in my mind He would allow me to worship Him and commune with Him as I am. He taught He turns no one away.This mindset has always puzzled me a little (I’m not singling you out, Roy5, I see this a lot). “God is present everywhere, so if he’s present in the Eucharist too, then…so what?”
It makes me wonder what they would do if Jesus showed up in person at their front door. Would they shrug and turn away–after all, Jesus is just as “present” elsewhere in the house, who cares if he’s right there in front of you and available to the senses? Or would they fall on their faces in wonder, because even though God is spiritually omnipresent…manalive, here he is RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!?
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Reuben_J
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The greatness of God is that he can be present even when he is not physically there. When Jesus was gone, he asked the father to send the Holy Spirit, and with the presence of Holy Spirit, it was even greater than his physical human presence on earth because then he can be present anywhere on the face of the earth. Thus his word, “When two or three of you gather in my name, there I will be in your midst”. He could not possibly be doing that in his human presence.
If he can be spiritually present there is no reason why he cannot be bodily present. It would be great contradiction to the belief of the omnipotence of God if he cannot do that. The promise of his bodily presence is also equally foretold by Jesus. Yes, no doubt it was a very difficult teaching that results in some of the disciples to leave because they could not understand what he meant but we also see that Jesus did not relent. And there were some who continue to stay behind with him.
Absolutely. God’s presence brings changes and that include healing. Nothing will be still the same when we are exposed to the radiant present of God.
We cannot say that when God is bodily present (in the Eucharist) that there would be greater changes and healing because that’s God prerogative and depend too on our response and our faith. Of course, human logic would tell us that if Jesus heals in his spiritual presence what more then in his physical presence?
Probably the big thing in the mass is the worship which is of course a prayer. But it is worship and because of the nature of that worship, everything else is pale in comparison. While Protestant service is great, it is not the same as with the mass and for that they would miss out on what the mass can offer. Probably this is just from a Catholic who has experienced the healing effect of the mass and also of services, but Protestants honestly would not miss something which they have not been a part of.
God bless.
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CMatt25
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Give it up Elizabeth. You’re the one who chose to argue definition replying to my post in which I used “manifest” interchangably with “embody” in the context in which *I *was speaking. It’s not always about you. I’d use them in the same manner again and you can use whatever termininolgy you want. I’ve tired of your arguing. I don’t have the pride I perhaps would need to keep responding to every little thing you wish to argue with me about such as manifest vs embody in the context in which I use them.
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snarflemike
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Hi,
If Jesus is present everywhere, is his body present everywhere? Or is he outside of his body? Being fully man, can Jesus exist apart from his body?
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racing59
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To answer your question can Jesus exist apart from his body, I believe the Bible answers this quetion, when his body was in the Tomb, but his Spirit preached to the souls in Hadies. When he ascended he was flesh,bone,and Spirit, he left his Blood on the Cross for the Curse for us to be free from the OT Law. Jesus is God’s Word and is everywhere.Heaven and earth come together when we are in the spirit. This is the Rema(Presence of Jesus) when we pray in the spirit and Word of God.
Peace
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ltwin
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He never leaves me nor forsakes me. I feel the presence of God as I call upon his name. However, I cannot see him bodily. I cannot put my fingers in the wound in his side.
Likewise, I myself am a man. But when I die my spirit will be separated from my body and my spirit will be present with the Lord (or so I hope) until the resurrection. That doesn’t make me any less human.
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Elizabeth502
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Of course He can. He is God. Also remember that His Body was glorified after His death, and remains glorified. His Body behaved differently after death than before death.
But the larger point is this: God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, can penetrate anywhere and everywhere, including within human beings on earth. God’s graces and powers are not limited either by human perception of those powers, or by visible physical constructs. But God normally acts through us human beings, and we human beings have bodies. Actual graces can be bestowed on anyone of any belief or belief system.
And the fact that God acts through others --often in response to prayer, but sometimes apart from prayer-- means that God is embodying Himself in humans during those moments, as we most certainly do not exist outside of our bodies while alive on earth!
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snarflemike
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Yes, his soul and divinity were in hades, but then he was dead. That is pretty much the definition of death, that the body is separated from the soul. But now that he is alive, and is still fully man, can Jesus be apart from his body?
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snarflemike
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But Jesus is no longer dead, and he is still fully man. For a man, to be separated from the body is to be dead.
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snarflemike
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Yes, he is God. But he is also man. When Jesus was on earth did he need food?
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Elizabeth502
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Yes, but he no longer needs food. Nor will we, once our bodies are (hopefully) glorified. This is Catholic doctrine.
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racing59
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I disagree with your definition. His body was in the grave, his soul and his Spirit which is his divinity took the keys of death and hades way from Satan. Death can not seperate us from the love of God. My body and Soul may die, but my spirit is etermnal once I excepted Jesus Christ. Paul talks about this in Corithians, that is why we die to the curse of Adam, we are reborn through the Blood of Jesus which washes our spirit clean. We are given a new spirit sealed by the Holy Spirit which can not die. This is all Biblical and happens on earth.Gen1:26 in Hebrew says God created man in his image and likenes. In Hebrew it atually refers to man as speaking spirits. So even if Jesus was man and God, he can exizt outside the body. The Apostle John was lifted to Heaven in the spirit and did not die. I dissagree with your definition of death.Even if we leave the body we are more alive then we are in it. Faith is believing in what is unseen, not what is seen. Jesus exist from the beginning without a body(flesh), so by your definition wouldn’t that suggest he was dead??? John 1:1-3,14 tells us Jesus was the word and the word was with God,and the word was God. That seems pretty clear to me he can exist without a body.
Peace
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snarflemike
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So even though Jesus was God, because he was also man he needed food. So I’m asking, even though Jesus is God, because he is also man, can he be apart from his body (his glorified body, to be sure)?
Look at it this way. If his body is everywhere, is it even a body?
I think some of my fellow Christians (Catholic and non) are being too quick to answer without thinking through. Having said that, I too am just pondering. Faith seeking understanding.
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Reuben_J
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???
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snarflemike
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James 2:26 " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."
So is Jesus’ body apart from his spirit, and if so, is his body dead?
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Elizabeth502
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No, Catholic theologians have thought it through. They have extensive training – far more than most lay people have. And I have thought it through. I’m not going to repeat myself. I’ve summarized it for you. Jesus no longer needs food. He had a finite time in his earthly ministry when he had need of His body in the most elemental ways that every human needs a body and functions as/with a body.
And you, if you are glorified with him after death, will no longer need food – when your glorified body returns to join your soul at the End Times. Again, this is Catholic doctrine. Not something new and extreme or off-the-beaten-path, but traditional Catholic doctrine.
It does not mean that a unique physical body in its earthly dimension is “everywhere.” But Jesus’ body is no longer bound by earthly restrictions.
A non-glorified body is qualitatively different from a glorified body. How that mysteriously takes place and is manifest we do not know yet, if we are still alive. We will know eventually.
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