Protestants, is Jesus present at your worship services?

[Elizabeth502]

James 2:26 " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."

Earthly bodies, yes. Heavenly bodies, no. Jesus’ body is now a heavenly body, by definition. He rose and ascended and is “seated at the right hand of the Father.”

 

[snarflemike]

Earthly bodies, yes. Heavenly bodies, no. Jesus’ body is now a heavenly body, by definition. He rose and ascended and is “seated at the right hand of the Father.”

How do you know that it is possible for human beings in heaven to be separate from their heavenly bodies and still be alive? I know of no reason to believe such a thing.

 

[snarflemike]

No, Catholic theologians have thought it through. They have extensive training – far more than most lay people have. And I have thought it through. I’m not going to repeat myself. I’ve summarized it for you. Jesus no longer needs food. He had a finite time in his earthly ministry when he had need of His body in the most elemental ways that every human needs a body and functions as/with a body.

And you, if you are glorified with him after death, will no longer need food – when your glorified body returns to join your soul at the End Times. Again, this is Catholic doctrine. Not something new and extreme or off-the-beaten-path, but traditional Catholic doctrine.

It does not mean that a unique physical body in its earthly dimension is “everywhere.” But Jesus’ body is no longer bound by earthly restrictions.

A non-glorified body is qualitatively different from a glorified body. How that mysteriously takes place and is manifest we do not know yet, if we are still alive. We will know eventually.

This is not a discussion about needing food. This is a discussion about whether Jesus has voluntarily undertaken limitation by becoming fully man. When he was on earth we agree that he undertook the limitation of needing food, for example. I am asking whether one limitation that he has undertaken is that he cannot be separated from his body.

And then, to get back to the OP, if Jesus is present in Protesant worship services, is his body present? If his body is not present, then is Jesus present? Is Jesus’ body now optional?

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is not a discussion about needing food.

Either you yourself or another poster brought up food. I did not bring up food.

This is a discussion about whether Jesus has voluntarily undertaken limitation by becoming fully man. When he was on earth we agree that he undertook the limitation of needing food, for example. I am asking whether one limitation that he has undertaken is that he cannot be separated from his body.

No. Because as both God and man he is distinct from us in what he “cannot” do and “cannot” be separated from.

Your identifier says that you were originally Catholic. Do you not understand Catholic doctrine on the identity of Jesus and what the Incarnation consisted of?

And then, to get back to the OP, if Jesus is present in Protesant worship services, is his body present? If his body is not present, then is Jesus present? Is Jesus’ body now optional?

I answered that in an earlier reply of mine. He is indeed present, even though not Eucharistically present. He is present when people pray in His name, together. (Mt18:20)

And that presence takes bodily form because humans have bodies. (One can say loosely that Jesus is “embodied” in other human beings, and because their Christ-like actions are seen in ways that activate the senses: People speak, sing, touch, embrace, smile, etc. in ways which communicate the grace of Christ.) Perhaps a preferable term would be an “enfleshed” presence. In any case, it’s a very real presence.

(And if anyone were to deny that Jesus could possibly be present at a Protestant service, that person would be speaking heresy, because he would be denying that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity has an unlimited reach, or that we humans are in any position to know what that reach is.)

Jesus, we say in the Creed, is God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God. Not just His Father, but He Himself.

 

[CMatt25]

How do you know that it is possible for human beings in heaven to be separate from their heavenly bodies and still be alive? I know of no reason to believe such a thing.

She already said in another post “Catholic theologians have thought it through. They have extensive training – far more than most lay people have. And I have thought it through”.

 

[racing59]

???

Hi Reuben J, I explain body, soul, and spirit in another thread we are dicussing. 1 Thessolonians 5:23, Gensis 1:26 explains we are a trinity just like the Trinity, but we are pirit,soul,and body. We have been given a new spirit, through the Holy Spirit, which is eternal even on earth. If I’m not mistaken Catholics believe this happens at Confermation, most Christians believe this happens when we except Jesus as Lord and savior, his death and resurrestion.
Peace

 

[snarflemike]

Either you yourself or another poster brought up food. I did not bring up food.

That’s correct, I brought it up, as an example of God limiting himself in the Person of Jesus Christ. God requires nothing, and yet Jesus (God) required food. So I think it’s not enough to say reflexively “of course he can, he’s God!”

No. Because as both God and man he is distinct from us in what he “cannot” do and “cannot” be separated from.

And yet he is fully man. He could not, to return to my example be separated from food in his earthly life, exactly as any other human being could not be.

Your identifier says that you were originally Catholic. Do you not understand Catholic doctrine on the identity of Jesus and what the Incarnation consisted of?

I am not only originally Catholic, I am now Catholic, and I suspect I understand Catholic doctrine tolerably well. If you can point to a Catholic teaching that addresses my specific question, I would be happy to read it (and trying to be a faithful Catholic, to accept it).

I answered that in an earlier reply of mine. He is indeed present, even though not Eucharistically present. He is present when people pray in His name, together. (Mt18:20)

And that presence takes bodily form because humans have bodies. (One can say loosely that Jesus is “embodied” in other human beings, and because their Christ-like actions are seen in ways that activate the senses: People speak, sing, touch, embrace, smile, etc. in ways which communicate the grace of Christ.) Perhaps a preferable term would be an “enfleshed” presence. In any case, it’s a very real presence.

So you are saying that the Church teaches that Jesus can be alive and separated from his body, unlike any other human being? And yet Paul says he is like us in all things except sin.

Your replies have an exasperated tone, as though this should be obvious, and yet I think my posts indicate that there is no reason to expect that this should be obvious. Jesus is not dead, to be dead is for the spirit to be apart from the body, and yet I’m told that Jesus can be apart from his body. No, nothing obvious about this at all. So instead of being exasperated, show me how the pieces go together/

 

[snarflemike]

She already said in another post “Catholic theologians have thought it through. They have extensive training – far more than most lay people have. And I have thought it through”. Maybe she knows this the same way.

I would be delighted to read these theologians. As I said before, faith seeking understanding.

 

[snarflemike]

Let me offer yet another POV on this. If Jesus is present outside of his body, then is Jesus’ humanity present? Is his human nature present? Can a human being (not person, I know Jesus is a Divine Person) be present if his body is not present? And can Jesus be present if his human nature is not present?

Here’s yet another breakdown of the question:

1. Can Jesus be present if his divinity is not present?
2. Can Jesus be present if his human soul is not present?
3. Can Jesus be present if his human body is not present?

 

[racing59]

James 2:26 " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."

So is Jesus’ body apart from his spirit, and if so, is his body dead?

You still didn’t answer me about Revelation Chapter one. John was lifted up in the spirit to Heaven, then you are saying his physical body on earth was dead??? Is Jesus Christ God??? Jesus sure said the Father and him were one. John 1:1-3 says God and Jesus are one. Can God exsist outside a Physical body? Of course he can. Hebrews 12:29 says God is consuming Fire.His love burns for us. You are not saved by works it is God’s grace that gave us the Grace to have Faith in the Word(Jesus Christ), it iss nothing you did, it is what Christ did on the Cross, taking on all our curse of sin. If it was based on works, we’d all be introuble, because all have sin and fall short of God’s Glory(Except Jesus).Last of all you would be judged by the things you didn’t do, that is also sin. Jesus paid the full price with his Blood.We do works because our spirit is sealed by the Holy Spirit and we become more and more like Christ in our soul and flesh, renewing our minds(soul) every day with the Word of God. Thank God for the Precious Blood of Jesus, I don’t go on my strength, but on Christ strength. My strength would be self centered way of looking at God,thinking I could earn Heaven with my works. When I get to the gates I’m pleading the Blood of Jesus, not my works.“HeyGod look at what I did.” pails to compair with “Hey God look what you did through the Blood of your beloved son Jesus.”
Peace

 

[CMatt25]

I am not only originally Catholic, I am now Catholic, and I suspect I understand Catholic doctrine tolerably well.

Sounds like you’re a member of the laity seeking to think things through in faith, striving to understand. I know Jesus said the greatest humbles himself like a child. God bless you on your journey.

 

[snarflemike]

You still didn’t answer me about Revelation Chapter one. John was lifted up in the spirit to Heaven,

It says nothing of the kind. It says he was “in the spirit”. No commentary I can find says that this means his spirit was lifted to heaven while his body remained behind.

 

[snarflemike]

Sounds like you’re a member of the laity seeking to think things through in faith, striving to understand. I know Jesus said the greatest humbles himself like a child. God bless you on your journey.

I am seeking to understand, but I know that I cannot understand, for who can understand God? So I don’t DEMAND to understand, or else I will not believe. And yet, even in seeking to understand, we come to know more about God and to become closer to him. I can only speak for myself, but every time I ponder some mystery of God, I am more awe-struck by God.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

You still didn’t answer me about Revelation Chapter one. John was lifted up in the spirit to Heaven, then you are saying his physical body on earth was dead??? Is Jesus Christ God??? Jesus sure said the Father and him were one. John 1:1-3 says God and Jesus are one. Can God exsist outside a Physical body? Of course he can. Hebrews 12:29 says God is consuming Fire.His love burns for us. You are not saved by works it is God’s grace that gave us the Grace to have Faith in the Word(Jesus Christ), it iss nothing you did, it is what Christ did on the Cross, taking on all our curse of sin. If it was based on works, we’d all be introuble, because all have sin and fall short of God’s Glory(Except Jesus).Last of all you would be judged by the things you didn’t do, that is also sin. Jesus paid the full price with his Blood.We do works because our spirit is sealed by the Holy Spirit and we become more and more like Christ in our soul and flesh, renewing our minds(soul) every day with the Word of God. Thank God for the Precious Blood of Jesus, I don’t go on my strength, but on Christ strength. My strength would be self centered way of looking at God,thinking I could earn Heaven with my works. When I get to the gates I’m pleading the Blood of Jesus, not my works.“HeyGod look at what I did.” pails to compair with “Hey God look what you did through the Blood of your beloved son Jesus.”
Peace

Both faith and works are needed. The grace from faith comes from Christ and is our salvation, no one denies that. But as was mentioned, faith without works is dead. It’s not our works “alone” that save us. But they are still necessary. Just like Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (our Catholic claim of Apostolic Succession and 2000 years of Magisterial teaching/guidance from the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ). While in this context I’m not speaking about salvation, but simply that we need both. We need Scriptures because the message is the word of Christ. It is His will that we know Him. But at the same time, Sacred Scripture would not exist were it not for Catholic Sacred Tradition. The oral tradition passed down for several centuries through Apostolic Succession. They are of equal importance. They go hand in hand. One can not work against the other. It’s like turning the Holy Spirit against Christ or Christ against Mary, etc. It’s silly on so many levels it’s downright asinine. Yet that’s what our protestant brothers and sisters do. Deny Sacred Tradition and settle for Sacred Scripture (of course this opens pandoras box on the fallacies of the KJV but that’s a whoooole different monster to tackle which is too far off subject so I’m gonna stick to the point)

 

[racing59]

It says nothing of the kind. It says he was “in the spirit”. No commentary I can find says that this means his spirit was lifted to heaven while his body remained behind.

What is lifted in the spirit,then??? So are you saying John went to Heaven physical body and spirit???

 

[Reuben_J]

Let me offer yet another POV on this. If Jesus is present outside of his body, then is Jesus’ humanity present? Is his human nature present? Can a human being (not person, I know Jesus is a Divine Person) be present if his body is not present? And can Jesus be present if his human nature is not present?

Hi Mike. I think both of you and Elizabeth are right in some points in the discussion but perhaps missed the crux of the matter which was not answered. It is about the person of Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. This is for the theologians to explain with their technical expertise and training to articulate it properly and where we as layman may lack that ability.

You have raise good questions. I try to address them as some are pretty obvious, I mean you don’t need a theologian to answer them to get it right.

If Jesus is present outside of his body, then is Jesus’ humanity present? - Yes. Jesus in his complete form is not separated from his human body. He is both human and divine.

Is his human nature present? Yes. When Jesus rose from the dead, he is now both in his human nature and divine nature.

***Can a human being (not person, I know Jesus is a Divine Person) be present if his body is not present? *** No, of course not.

***And can Jesus be present if his human nature is not present? ***Yes, because it is him. His nature is present in his complete form; the risen Jesus. Insofar he walked the face of the earth, he was purely human and therefore not in his complete form, that is, the human nature form only. Here it is rather tricky. I used to have Muslims saying that, if he is human while on earth therefore the divine second person does not exist at that point in time because if He exists, then how come Jesus prayed to Himself?

The human Jesus was while he lived on earth. That was the incarnation. Since that is his nature, in his fullness, he is both human and divine. In his glorious state and divine form, that human nature is still part of him except now he manifests himself in the fullness of his nature.

Just like the body of the Eucharist – when we receive communion in one species (body) we also receive the blood because the body naturally contains the blood but still it is in the appearance of the body.

Here’s yet another breakdown of the question:

1. Can Jesus be present if his divinity is not present?
2. Can Jesus be present if his human soul is not present?
3. Can Jesus be present if his human body is not present?

1. Then he is only human. That was his 33 years of his human existence on earth. This is not what the Eucharist means.
2. You cannot separate his human soul from Jesus. So that is a hypothetical question.
3. Yes, he can. The Eucharist analogy of the body refers.

God bless.

 

[racing59]

Both faith and works are needed. The grace from faith comes from Christ and is our salvation, no one denies that. But as was mentioned, faith without works is dead. It’s not our works “alone” that save us. But they are still necessary. Just like Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (our Catholic claim of Apostolic Succession and 2000 years of Magisterial teaching/guidance from the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ). While in this context I’m not speaking about salvation, but simply that we need both. We need Scriptures because the message is the word of Christ. It is His will that we know Him. But at the same time, Sacred Scripture would not exist were it not for Catholic Sacred Tradition. The oral tradition passed down for several centuries through Apostolic Succession. They are of equal importance. They go hand in hand. One can not work against the other. It’s like turning the Holy Spirit against Christ or Christ against Mary, etc. It’s silly on so many levels it’s downright asinine. Yet that’s what our protestant brothers and sisters do. Deny Sacred Tradition and settle for Sacred Scripture (of course this opens pandoras box on the fallacies of the KJV but that’s a whoooole different monster to tackle which is too far off subject so I’m gonna stick to the point)

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Works is a byproduct of our Faith, they will know we are Christians by our Love. Jesus gave a new commandment at the Lasst Supper, love one another. Our spirit was sealed by the Holy Spirit and recieves the Word of God by Faith.Our spirit then convicts our mind(soul) to believe the Word. Finally our flesh(Body) gets in line with the other two and we become Christ like(Christians or Annointed ones) and go out and help the orphan and widow(which is works. Once again works is a byproduct of Faith in Jesus Christ. You believe in Sacred Tradition, I believe all Christians, Catholic and non Catholic have the authority of Jesus through his name. I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit which includes Apostleship. I believe we are still in the Apostolic age.Signs and wonders are still following us in the age of the Church. The dead are being raised, people are being healed, demons are being casted out through the Blood and name of Jesus. That is what I believe.
Peace

 

[CleverUserName]

I’ m just not sure it’s true. I am careful to be very respectful in Catholic churches, though, just in case.

I love this

 

[Elizabeth502]

Let me offer yet another POV on this. If Jesus is present outside of his body, then is Jesus’ humanity present? Is his human nature present? Can a human being (not person, I know Jesus is a Divine Person) be present if his body is not present? And can Jesus be present if his human nature is not present?

Here’s yet another breakdown of the question:

Can Jesus be present if his divinity is not present?

Jesus is never separable from his divinity. That included during his earthly ministry, in ancient Palestine. His divinity and humanity co-existed: this is essential doctrine. (You said you understand Catholic doctrine reasonably well, yet how could you have missed this? And how could you continue to ask questions like this, if you understand it? I’m not trying to be hypercritical; it’s just that this is so essential to Catholic teaching, I don’t understand how you can now be asking questions about it.)

Can Jesus be present if his human soul is not present?

Try to give yourself credit for having a logical mind, capable of sifting through to the answer yourself. Again, Jesus is God. God can be present extra-materially, extra-physically. (In ‘traditional’ terminology, this is referred to as “supernaturally.”) The very phenomena of mystical experiences verify that God can break through and be present outside of an earthly, material existence. In His humanity, Jesus nevertheless never failed to be divine, simultaneously.

Can Jesus be present if his human body is not present?

Same answer.

Do you or do you not believe that Jesus is God? And if you do believe that Jesus is God (which is Catholic dogma of the highest order), what is it that you believe that God cannot do? (Hint: “All-powerful”-- in the Latin root form, “omnipotent”-- is an essential descriptor of God.)

Jesus’ humanity did not limit or reduce his divinity — not in ancient Palestine, not now. It co-existed with his divinity. The fact that (I agree!) it is a mystery – and seems on the rational surface to be a paradox – does not mean that it is not an article of faith. For the believer, this is not open to question, any more than the Real Presence in the Eucharist (also a mystery and a paradox!) is open to question.

 

[Elizabeth502]

III. True God and True Man

464
The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man. During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.

465
The first heresies denied not so much Christ’s divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God’s Son "come in the flesh."87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is “begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father,” and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God “came to be from things that were not” and that he was “from another substance” than that of the Father.88

466
The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God’s Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council at Ephesus in 431 confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man."89 Christ’s humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."90

467
The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God’s Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:

Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin.” He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.91

We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.92

468
After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ’s human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council at Constantinople in 553 confessed that "there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity."93 Thus everything in Christ’s human nature is to be attributed to his divine person as its proper subject, not only his miracles but also his sufferings and even his death: "He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity."94

469
The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

“What he was, he remained and what he was not, he assumed,” sings the Roman Liturgy.95 And the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom proclaims and sings: "O only-begotten Son and Word of God, immortal being, you who deigned for our salvation to become incarnate of the holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, you who without change became man and were crucified, O Christ our God, you who by your death have crushed death, you who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us!"96

old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3.shtml