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Teflon93
Guest
And we can provide you with the list of Catholic clergy who got stuffed in the camps thanks to Hitler.
Get some perspective before projecting your disdain for the Church backward into history.
Protestants lacks the respect of Christian history compared to Eastern Orthodox and Catholics.
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Get some perspective before projecting your disdain for the Church backward into history.
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peary
Guest
Originally Posted by AllSaints1631
Why don’t you check out *Hitler’s Pope by John Cornwell *and learn about the horrific aligment between Hitler and Pope Pius XII. Again, I am less than enthusiastic about being Catholic these days.
**Why don’t you check out *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany * by David G. Dalin?
Why don’t you check out *Hitler, the War, and the Pope *by Ronald J. Rychlak?
Why don’t you check out *The Pius War: Responses to the Critics of Pius XII * by William Doino, Joseph Bottum, & David G. Dalin?
Why don’t you check out *Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII And the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis *
by Ronald J. Rychlak, with Froward by Michael Novak?
Why don’t you check out Pius Xii, the Holocaust And the Revisionists: Essays by Patrick J. Gallo (Editor)?
Why don’t you check out *Eugenio: (Pope Pius XII) True Hero of the Holocaust *by M.L.T. Brown?
Know what? I don’t think you will. Why? Because I think you would rather believe a lie because of some quirk you have against the Church than to face the truth. I think you are just looking for an excuse to leave.**
Why don’t you check out *Hitler’s Pope by John Cornwell *and learn about the horrific aligment between Hitler and Pope Pius XII. Again, I am less than enthusiastic about being Catholic these days.
**Why don’t you check out *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany * by David G. Dalin?
Why don’t you check out *Hitler, the War, and the Pope *by Ronald J. Rychlak?
Why don’t you check out *The Pius War: Responses to the Critics of Pius XII * by William Doino, Joseph Bottum, & David G. Dalin?
Why don’t you check out *Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII And the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis *
by Ronald J. Rychlak, with Froward by Michael Novak?
Why don’t you check out Pius Xii, the Holocaust And the Revisionists: Essays by Patrick J. Gallo (Editor)?
Why don’t you check out *Eugenio: (Pope Pius XII) True Hero of the Holocaust *by M.L.T. Brown?
Know what? I don’t think you will. Why? Because I think you would rather believe a lie because of some quirk you have against the Church than to face the truth. I think you are just looking for an excuse to leave.**
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Pictures taken out of context. Pictures which also been refuted by Rabbi David G. Dalin. He also states, there is no evidence Pius ever met with Hitler.
I don’t know what lies you were told of the Pope. You need to stop living the past and live today. Just ast Pope John Paul II said, "“The future starts today, not tomorrow.”
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Mannyfit75
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She isn’t Catholic right? If she is, she’s a very bad Catholic. Very Anti-Catholic too.
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JohnnyReb
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Please do. I would like to see it myself.
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Steadfast
Guest
Ooh, a Pius XII thread…
Here’s the thing, Cornwell’s book is a hatchet job on Pius but it’s not entirely inaccurate.
The Reichskonkordat of '33 did outlaw membership in political parties by Catholic clergy which did, in turn effect the dissolution of the Catholic Center Party. This party was the only viable conservative alternative to National Socialism in the years leading up to Hitler’s chancellorship. It’s removal created a parliamentary vacuum NSDAP was able to exploit.
It is interesting that the Nazi’s never enjoyed more than 37% of the popular vote, but with the Catholic Center Party out of the way that was enough to establish a majority in the Reichstag and pave the way for total take over of the government.
Pius was not in collusion with Hitler. He did not like Hitler. He signed the Concordat to protect Catholics in Germany. That doing so effectively paved the way for Nazi take over of the government appears to have been unforeseen by the pontiff.
Pius had a couple choices, he could sign the Concordat and make his deal with the devil, or he could excommunicate Catholic NSDAP members en masse and place Germany under interdict until the people got rid of Hitler.
The latter would have been very painful for Catholics in Germany and of course it is not likely that Pius knew what Hitler was going to do with the Jews and WWII and so on.
The question remains though whether Pius took the better course. It can be argued that the latter course (excommunication and interdict) would have been the more moral and religious since the leaders of a church should never be seen to discourage martyrdom in the face of a godless state.
Here’s the thing, Cornwell’s book is a hatchet job on Pius but it’s not entirely inaccurate.
The Reichskonkordat of '33 did outlaw membership in political parties by Catholic clergy which did, in turn effect the dissolution of the Catholic Center Party. This party was the only viable conservative alternative to National Socialism in the years leading up to Hitler’s chancellorship. It’s removal created a parliamentary vacuum NSDAP was able to exploit.
It is interesting that the Nazi’s never enjoyed more than 37% of the popular vote, but with the Catholic Center Party out of the way that was enough to establish a majority in the Reichstag and pave the way for total take over of the government.
Pius was not in collusion with Hitler. He did not like Hitler. He signed the Concordat to protect Catholics in Germany. That doing so effectively paved the way for Nazi take over of the government appears to have been unforeseen by the pontiff.
Pius had a couple choices, he could sign the Concordat and make his deal with the devil, or he could excommunicate Catholic NSDAP members en masse and place Germany under interdict until the people got rid of Hitler.
The latter would have been very painful for Catholics in Germany and of course it is not likely that Pius knew what Hitler was going to do with the Jews and WWII and so on.
The question remains though whether Pius took the better course. It can be argued that the latter course (excommunication and interdict) would have been the more moral and religious since the leaders of a church should never be seen to discourage martyrdom in the face of a godless state.
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DCD
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Metaron
Guest
I would also mention the Oriental Churches, The Mar Thoma Church, and the Anglican Communion. All of those have a more or less historic view of the Christian faith.
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Metaron
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Teflon98’s statement that the Pope was somehow aligned wth Hitler is absurd. As is now well documented, Pope Pius opened all the monasteries and nunneries to the Jews, and even hids some of them in the Vatican and his own papal palace. He worked in secrecy to save both the Jews and the Church. It is estimated that he saved over 7,000 Jews in Italy alone.
Besides, even if he did support Hitler, that wouldn’t necessary nullify the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church of God on Earth.
Besides, even if he did support Hitler, that wouldn’t necessary nullify the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church of God on Earth.
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Deconi
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“Teflon” was quoting someone else, Metaron, so that s/he can reply to it. Like this!
The Catholic Church under Pius XII saved more Jews than the Red Cross and ALL the countries who fought the Nazis!
Only idiots with agendas against Catholicism would rather believe otherwise instead of conducting research to uncover the facts. Whether Catholic or non-Catholic, you have to be some kind of ignorant to believe what anti-Catholics write!
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peary
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It was ALLSAINTS1631 (cute date :whacky: )“Teflon” was quoting someone else, Metaron, so that s/he can reply to it. Like this!
The Catholic Church under Pius XII saved more Jews than the Red Cross and ALL the countries who fought the Nazis!
Only idiots with agendas against Catholicism would rather believe otherwise instead of conducting research to uncover the facts. Whether Catholic or non-Catholic, you have to be some kind of ignorant to believe what anti-Catholics write!
As I said in my last post to h/her, h/she is just looking for an excuse to leave the Church - IF they ever belonged to it in the first place. I see we get a lot of ‘what ifs’ in these forums.
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Teflon93
Guest
I of course said no such thing; it’s possible the in embedding a quote one of the previous threads may have attributed someone else’s comment to me.
Not only do I not believe the Pope had any sort of alliance with Hitler, I believe that such anti-Catholic claims stem largely from the initial dalliance Lutherans had with the Nazi Party and the need to explain that away. Since the Nazis found various Protestant denominations in Germany insufficiently pro-Nazi, they formed the Reich Church and clapped a bunch of Prostetant clergy in irons along with their Catholic and Jewish brothers.
For a definitive overview, read Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”, which pulls no punches here despite Shirer being a Protestant himself.
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Metaron
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My apologies, Teflon93. I must have misread/misunderstood your post, or someone misquoted you.
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Teflon93
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No worries—this most commonly happens when a
I just wanted to make sure people didn’t think I’d done a 180!
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