Protestants listen up

[elvisman]

Ummmm…are you sure about that?
It’s very clear that the stars symbolizes the 12 tribes just like it did in Joseph’s dreams in Genesis 37:9-11

In Isaiah 66: 7-10, Isaiah depicts Jerusalem, Israel as a woman going into labor and delivering a “son”
*7 “Before she goes into labor, *
*she gives birth; *
*before the pains come upon her, *
*she delivers a son. *
*8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? *
*Who has ever seen such things? *
*Can a country be born in a day *
*or a nation be brought forth in a moment? *
*Yet no sooner is Zion in labor *
*than she gives birth to her children. *
*9 Do I bring to the moment of birth *
*and not give delivery?” says the LORD. *
*“Do I close up the womb *
*when I bring to delivery?” says your God. *
*10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, *
*all you who love her; *
*rejoice greatly with her, *
*all you who mourn over her. *

We also see this in Micah 4: 9-10, Micah depicts Israel as the daughter of Zion (God’s Kingdom) going through labor pains.

*Why do you now cry aloud— *
*have you no king? *
*Has your counselor perished, *
*that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor? *
*10 Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion, *
*like a woman in labor, *
*for now you must leave the city *
*to camp in the open field. *
*You will go to Babylon; *
*there you will be rescued. *
*There the LORD will redeem you *
*out of the hand of your enemies. *

Reading the rest of the chapter, we see that part of God’s plan was to have a “ruler out of Bethlehem, Israel”. This is recapping how Israel will struggle but give birth to the Messiah.
Later on in Revelation 12:14, the woman is saved by being carried by “Eagles Wings” into the wild, away from Satan’s reach.
In Exodus 19, God tells Moses:

"This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.

This parallel symbolizes refuge on how God rescued Israel from Egypt and into the wild. Once again, the woman is clearly Israel.
That imagery in Revelation 12 should not to be taken literally. Because if it was, then you’re saying that Mary had offspring as in Revelation 12:14 which contradicts the Catholic’s dogma of her perpetual virginity. The offspring were identified as Christians and it makes sense that Israel gave birth to Christians. You should probably read more Scriptures.
Based on the context of that entire Scripture, we know that the woman in Revelation 12 is the nation of Israel NOT Mary. Nice try though.

The Church has always taught that the Woman spoken of in Revelation 12 is 3 entities: Mary, Israel and the Church.

**As Scripture often does, it uses one symbol to illustrate many things. **
Ummm - if you studied enough Scripture, you’d know this.

Mary gave birth to Jesus, the head of the Church.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, hence, the Church literally sprang from the nation of Israel.
The Church is the offspring.

The 12 stars symbolize the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles. Revelation 4:4 speaks of the 24 elders - the 12 tribes and the 12 Apostles - as Jesus assured the Apostles in Matt. 19:28.

**So - the crowned woman is Israel, Mary and the Church. As I pointed out to you in an earlier post (which, not surprisingly, you don’t seem to understand) **is that the Davidic Kingdom was a model set up by God. Solomon - the wisest earthly King in the history of Israel set up his mother as Queen of Israel.

Jesus set up HIS mother as queen of heaven - just as God guided Solomon to do in the earthly model of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Ummm . . . you should probably read and understand more of the Scriptures.

 

[elvisman]

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Thanks, brotha.
Some people just don’t learn - even after 2000 years . . .

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thanks, brotha.
Some people just don’t learn - even after 2000 years . . .

Maybe they should read more scriptures?

 

[Louie1983]

Don’t encourage them , they may come up with more of their own interpretations!

 

[AlegreFe]

I dont hate Mary, why are you afraid to know Jesus?

There are many faithful Catholics who know Jesus. But we can always get to know Him better through Mary!

No Mary, No Jesus!
Know Mary, Know Jesus!

 

[Hercules253]

The Church has always taught that the Woman spoken of in Revelation 12 is 3 entities: Mary, Israel and the Church.

Ummm . . . you should probably read and understand more of the Scriptures.

ummm…that’s wierd…you say the woman in Revelation is the Church, Mary, and Israel all fused together and that is all revealed in Scripture? But then you go on to say its because the Church says that? which one is it? Make up your mind if you have one…I guess that makes all the millions of protestants ignorant about Scriptures because they interpret it differently…

I already stated my reason:

Israel was depicted as a woman in birth pains giving birth to the Messiah
The same sun, moon, and 12 stars was used in Joseph’s dream with the stars representing the tribes of Israel. So why would the meaning then change to disciples and what does Mary have to do with the 12 disciples?
Israel escaped to the wild in Eagle’s wings, the same exact word used for the woman in Revelation, not Mary
Israel gave birth to Christians, the followers of Jesus…are you to say that Mary was the mother of Christianity?
What does Mary have to do with 1260 days?
Mary was in Egypt hiding from Herod for 2 years, and the woman in Revelation was in safety for 3 1/2 years…no Mary there

clearly, Israel solely (without the help of Mary and the Church) fits this visionary identification very smoothly… You seem to be using more imagery that John is in his revelation.

Of course you would know all of this, if you actually read Scriptures. I actually read Scriptures and that’s why I’m not Catholic anymore…If Catholics cant prove it using Scriptures, they’ll cry and say its not sola scriptura and then bust out the Apostolic Succession card <---- their secret weapon when all else fails.

So I guess according to what you just said your buddies in this forum are completely ignorant because they all insist its JUST referring to Mary? Not one of them said it was the church, Mary, and Israel all together. Not one. According to you, they should study Scripture more right? because they don’t spend all their time in their mom’s basement playing video games all day and using cut and paste from RCC websites like you? What a good friend you are:thumbsup:

Elvisman should stop preaching just like Elvis stopped playing music a looong time ago…

 

[Hercules253]

There are many faithful Catholics who know Jesus. But we can always get to know Him better through Mary!

No Mary, No Jesus!
Know Mary, Know Jesus!

Wow, thats absurd…are you serious?

You don’t need Mary to better know Jesus…do you think the disciples went though Mary to know Jesus? Did Paul go through Mary to know Jesus? Did the Gentiles go though Mary to know Jesus?

The old Testament figures knew God without any intermediary.

We recognize His voice and the eternal Word of God which was written so we may believe…

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[rinnie]

Wow, thats absurd…are you serious?

You don’t need Mary to better know Jesus…do you think the disciples went though Mary to know Jesus? Did Paul go through Mary to know Jesus? Did the Gentiles go though Mary to know Jesus?

The old Testament figures knew God without any intermediary.

We recognize His voice and the eternal Word of God which was written so we may believe…

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Oh lord have Mercy, I am going to try. Please listen to what People are trying to tell you. Since the annunciation Mary maintained her faith all the way to the death of Jesus at the Cross. Mary chose to honor and obey God. She did not have to, she wanted to, and did.

By doing that she had a unique place with the Holy Spirit. SHe welcomed the Holy Spirit into her body and soul. It is because of this we got the gift of Jesus Christ. Now by her unique cooperation with the Holy SPirit the church’s developed their prayer to the Holy Mother of God CENTERING IT on the PERSOn of Christ manifested in his mysteries.

The Church does two things in prayers, they alternated with one another and magnify the great things the Lord did for us through his lowely and through Mary for all human beings. The second entrust the supplications and praises of the Children of God because she now knows the humanity which in her son of God espoused.

What you do not understand is Mary is the Mother church. She was here after the death of Christ. Do you not realize that Mary was with the Apostles in the room when they started the Church. Mary helped start the Church, she was the person who knew that the Church was left here to glorify one person her Son. She helped make sure of it.

She had the power of the Holy Spirit the day she came into this world. SHe is the Mother of God, that is why she is the Mother of all! God said that, not me. That is why she is called the daughter of Jerusalem. She believed that is why she is Blessed. It is because of her belief and trust that we have the fullfillment of the world Jesus Christ. That is why she is called the mother of belivers because of her faith.

Now if you are a believer she is called Your Mother. It is because of what she did for you and me and all mankind that she is so loved. She accepted Gods task and gave birth to Jesus Christ. It is because of her faith and Love that God became Man through her, and God became human, Jesus Christ. That is why she is so loved.

The reason she is the Mother Church is because she is the perfect example of Faith, suffering, and Love. SHe shows us to believe when everything to doubt in this world comes into play. THink about it, Her son did die on the cross, but she still believed in God. SHe had no magic pill just Faith in God. She saw her son suffer, she knows human pain. She suffered with Jesus, a baby she loved who did nothing but show Love and compassion. And she is the perfect example of Love because she never hated or held a grudge on us, she forgave. Could You?

So when you go to her for help she is there not because we replace God, its because GOD PUT HER THERE. For two reasons to be honored and to help us also. She is the human being like us, she did not have it easy. But she never sinned either, but suffered for our sins also. Watching her son Die. So when we ask Mary for help also its more for her FAITH to have the FAITH that she had, to help us get through. And it is through her faith, that shows us true faith. And it is her faith that she teaches us to go to Church and pray to her son. It is Mary who is the Church in a sense because its her Love and Faith that brings the Church to light. That helps us when we are in trouble, and say’s just like at the wedding go to my Son, and like at the wedding Goes to her son for us and gets us what we need. At the wedding Jesus was not ready to reveal himself yet with the wine. Do you pick up the connection here. He did it for his Mother. There was a reason for that. THe wine at the wedding had a meaning. He wanted us to know that he Loved his Mother, and she had another meaning on this earth too! SHe is our Mother, to help us. Just like the wine at the wedding, she will go with us and pray with us, and lead us to her son when we are lost, hurting, suffering. She will pick us up, and lead us to God. It is her unique gift at times people lose faith, its her faith that brings us back to God. She never ever replaces God she brings the MOST Glory to GOD! Think about it what did he say to her when she asked him to change the water into wine (it is not my time yet) But she still had faith in him, as she always has, and even though it was not his time it did it for her.

 

[Walden]

I actually read Scriptures and that’s why I’m not Catholic anymore…

That explains a lot.

Elvisman should stop preaching just like Elvis stopped playing music a looong time ago…

That isn’t even almost nice. You know WHY Elvis quit singing don’t you? Unbelievable.

Clearly, you reject the authority of the Church. You’ve seriously misrepresented history on this thread. Either the source of your information was wrong and you didn’t bother to check or you were lying. I hope it was the former. Either way your credibility (at least with me) shot to zero.

I’ll let the other Catholic posters here address your points. I just hope you realize by now that there are informed Catholics here that won’t bite on the same nonsense that got you to leave the Church. Open minded debate is one thing, but this has degenerated into personal attacks.

I hope you didn’t mean what you appeared to suggest about Elvisman.

 

[wisdomseeker]

ummm…that’s wierd…you say the woman in Revelation is the Church, Mary, and Israel all fused together and that is all revealed in Scripture? But then you go on to say its because the Church says that? which one is it? Make up your mind if you have one…I guess that makes all the millions of protestants ignorant about Scriptures because they interpret it differently…

I already stated my reason:

Israel was depicted as a woman in birth pains giving birth to the Messiah
The same sun, moon, and 12 stars was used in Joseph’s dream with the stars representing the tribes of Israel. So why would the meaning then change to disciples and what does Mary have to do with the 12 disciples?
Israel escaped to the wild in Eagle’s wings, the same exact word used for the woman in Revelation, not Mary
Israel gave birth to Christians, the followers of Jesus…are you to say that Mary was the mother of Christianity?
What does Mary have to do with 1260 days?
Mary was in Egypt hiding from Herod for 2 years, and the woman in Revelation was in safety for 3 1/2 years…no Mary there

clearly, Israel solely (without the help of Mary and the Church) fits this visionary identification very smoothly… You seem to be using more imagery that John is in his revelation.

Of course you would know all of this, if you actually read Scriptures. I actually read Scriptures and that’s why I’m not Catholic anymore…If Catholics cant prove it using Scriptures, they’ll cry and say its not sola scriptura and then bust out the Apostolic Succession card <---- their secret weapon when all else fails.

So I guess according to what you just said your buddies in this forum are completely ignorant because they all insist its JUST referring to Mary? Not one of them said it was the church, Mary, and Israel all together. Not one. According to you, they should study Scripture more right? because they don’t spend all their time in their mom’s basement playing video games all day and using cut and paste from RCC websites like you? What a good friend you are:thumbsup:

Elvisman should stop preaching just like Elvis stopped playing music a looong time ago…

why are so sure of having the True enterpretation of SS? dont you know that the same Church that put forth the Bible should also be able to enterpret them? dont know that the Church is before the SS was put together? if you know this, why do you deny her authority? these passage can be enterpreted as Israel and Mary. since the main the message here is about Jesus our Lord and the birth of the Church.

if reading Scritptures is to understand wrong, it is better not to read it at all.
ML was not the sole enterpret of the Bible, neither was the others along with him. neither your pastores or your congregations, or your Bible teachers. since your religion got the idea of Christianity from the CC. why not go to the source and learn from her, instead of going to those who continuously say, i believe that is what means. why dont you read more of St Augustine?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

ummm…that’s wierd…you say the woman in Revelation is the Church, Mary, and Israel all fused together and that is all revealed in Scripture? But then you go on to say its because the Church says that? which one is it? Make up your mind if you have one…I guess that makes all the millions of protestants ignorant about Scriptures because they interpret it differently…

I already stated my reason:

Israel was depicted as a woman in birth pains giving birth to the Messiah
The same sun, moon, and 12 stars was used in Joseph’s dream with the stars representing the tribes of Israel. So why would the meaning then change to disciples and what does Mary have to do with the 12 disciples?
Israel escaped to the wild in Eagle’s wings, the same exact word used for the woman in Revelation, not Mary
Israel gave birth to Christians, the followers of Jesus…are you to say that Mary was the mother of Christianity?
What does Mary have to do with 1260 days?
Mary was in Egypt hiding from Herod for 2 years, and the woman in Revelation was in safety for 3 1/2 years…no Mary there

clearly, Israel solely (without the help of Mary and the Church) fits this visionary identification very smoothly… You seem to be using more imagery that John is in his revelation.

Of course you would know all of this, if you actually read Scriptures. I actually read Scriptures and that’s why I’m not Catholic anymore…If Catholics cant prove it using Scriptures, they’ll cry and say its not sola scriptura and then bust out the Apostolic Succession card <---- their secret weapon when all else fails.

So I guess according to what you just said your buddies in this forum are completely ignorant because they all insist its JUST referring to Mary? Not one of them said it was the church, Mary, and Israel all together. Not one. According to you, they should study Scripture more right? because they don’t spend all their time in their mom’s basement playing video games all day and using cut and paste from RCC websites like you? What a good friend you are:thumbsup:

Elvisman should stop preaching just like Elvis stopped playing music a looong time ago…

You say you read your Bible, please provide scriptures that shows people are to turn a discussion about Christ, Mary or the Bible, into a personal attack.

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Not only do I believe personal attacks are not scriptural, I believe they are against the forum rules as well.

 

[elvisman]

ummm…that’s wierd…you say the woman in Revelation is the Church, Mary, and Israel all fused together and that is all revealed in Scripture? But then you go on to say its because the Church says that? which one is it? Make up your mind if you have one…I guess that makes all the millions of protestants ignorant about Scriptures because they interpret it differently…

I already stated my reason:

Israel was depicted as a woman in birth pains giving birth to the Messiah
The same sun, moon, and 12 stars was used in Joseph’s dream with the stars representing the tribes of Israel. So why would the meaning then change to disciples and what does Mary have to do with the 12 disciples?
Israel escaped to the wild in Eagle’s wings, the same exact word used for the woman in Revelation, not Mary
Israel gave birth to Christians, the followers of Jesus…are you to say that Mary was the mother of Christianity?
What does Mary have to do with 1260 days?
Mary was in Egypt hiding from Herod for 2 years, and the woman in Revelation was in safety for 3 1/2 years…no Mary there

clearly, Israel solely (without the help of Mary and the Church) fits this visionary identification very smoothly… You seem to be using more imagery that John is in his revelation.

You’re interpretation differs with almost every Protestant theologian (living and dead) because they say it’s Israel AND the Church.

Ummm . . . can you show me** where**** it says (in Scripture) that Jesus was in Egypt for 2 years?**
Also - how does 1260 days relate to Israel?
Mary can also be shown to be the Woman because she is the mother of Jesus, She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod (Rev. 12:5). Ummm . . .that’s Jesus – in case you forgot. This correlates directly to Gen. 3:15:
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

Of course you would know all of this, if you actually read Scriptures. I actually read Scriptures and that’s why I’m not Catholic anymore…If Catholics cant prove it using Scriptures, they’ll cry and say its not sola scriptura and then bust out the Apostolic Succession card <---- their secret weapon when all else fails.

So I guess according to what you just said your buddies in this forum are completely ignorant because they all insist its JUST referring to Mary? Not one of them said it was the church, Mary, and Israel all together. Not one. According to you, they should study Scripture more right? because they don’t spend all their time in their mom’s basement playing video games all day and using cut and paste from RCC websites like you? What a good friend you are

Elvisman should stop preaching just like Elvis stopped playing music a looong time ago…

**You really need to grow up. Ad hominem attacks and insults are the sign of somebody who is ****ignorant ****about the discussion at hand. **
"Ad hominem" means that you’ve basically run out of ammunition and have resorted to name-calling because you have nothing left to add to the conversation.

**As for my “buddies” on this forum stateing that Mary is the Woman in Rev 12. The fact that they ****didn’t **include the other meanings is irrelevant.

You really don’t study scripture that much, do you? If you did, you would understand the idea of polyvalent symbolism. I realize these might be big words for you, but allow me to explain. This is where symbols have more than one meaning. Revelation uses this type of symbolism. Case in point, the seven heads of the beast are considered to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

So - how did you come up with your own personal interpretation of Rev. 12 when it differs from almost everybody else’s in the Protestant world?
This ought to be good . . .

 

[dougfreed]

Read further Heb 12:1-3
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Rev 5:6-10
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

No where in any of this does it imply what you a refering to…

You edited your post, after I responded…

Ok, what is the difference asking a live person to pray for you, verses an eternally alive person to pray for you?

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Who were the 4 and 20 ancients delivering our prayers up to the Lamb in St. John’s vision?

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Read further Heb 12:1-3
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Rev 5:6-10
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

No where in any of this does it imply what you a refering to…

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
Heb 12:2 Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds.

By adding the additional verses, you have only strengthened the Catholic position that it is acceptable to ask for saints, on earth and in heaven, to pray for us to Jesus, the only mediator between man and God, the author and finisher of faith.

We have interpretational differences here.

Assuming you believe in sola scriptura and private interpretation, by what authority can you tell me that my interpretation is wrong?

Rev 5:6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing, as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book and to open the seals thereof: because thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Rather than simply telling me you don’t agree with my interpretation, please take the time to explain who is delivering the prayers of saints and why those prayers are being delivered up to the Lamb and on whose behalf?

If you truly understood the above through Catholic interpretation, you would also understand the Catholic Mass.

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.
Tob 12:13 And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee.
Tob 12:14 And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil.
Tob 12:15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.

The angel offered up Tobias’ prayer to the Lord. (You probably won’t find that in your version of the Bible, since Martin Luther chose the Jewish canon of the Old Testament over the Old Testament canon that was acceptable to Christians for 1500+ years prior to his decision as to what was inspired and what was not according to his private interpretation.)

 

[meandean]

Maybe they should read more scriptures?

heeeeyyyy, sola fide, right on bro!

 

[Hercules253]

So - how did you come up with your own personal interpretation of Rev. 12 when it differs from almost everybody else’s in the Protestant world?
This ought to be good . . .

Ok, Elvisman…no need to excommunicate me…its seems like the Spanish Inquisition meets the internet…just kidding…ok, with all jokes, arrogance, and sarcasm to the side, i do respect you! You are educated indeed and a fellow in Christ…but I must do defend myself…

So you were asking me how I came up with my own interpretation? The answer is I didn’t. I read in it a few Bibles and their side commentaries. I will site the references but I wanted to point out to you that not one of them mentions the woman in Rev 12 as Mary…
As I mentioned earlier, I did provide rational evidence on why I believe it’s Israel and the Christians (the early church) who were followers out of Israel and not Mary. The only thing that I didn’t agree on with you (and neither does the rest of my sources) is that it also implies Mary. So here they are:

1. The New English Bible with the Apocrypha Oxford Study Edition New York Oxford Press- Sandmel

page 323 “Here the woman represents Isreal from whom Jesus sprang”

This is the Bible I have in my hand right now

2. Haper’s Bible Commentary - with Apocypha] -with SBL (Society of Bible Literature)
Mays Harper 7 Row Publisher
-The Society of Biblical Literature is the oldest and largest international scholarly membership organization in the field of biblical studies. Founded in 1880

*page 1212- “it is natural to understand that the woman of vv. 1-6 is Mary…yet she seems to personify Zion - Israel ] or the church” *

This is the other Bible that I have in my hand as well
**
3. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops**

[1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.

4. Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
*The woman represented the early Christians, church *

5. John Darby’s synopsis
The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby.

“The first symbolical person, subject of the prophecy and result of all God’s ways in it, is a woman clothed with the sun, having a crown of twelve stars, and the moon under her feet. It is Israel, or Jerusalem as its centre as in the purpose of God (compare Is 9:6 and Ps 87:6).”

6. Forerunner Commentary
Rather, chapter 12 is a highly condensed history of the true church within Israel, the woman…It is, first of all, an Israelitish church, but its real roots are in heaven—where the sun, moon, and stars are. God is figuratively, symbolically pointing in the direction of the origins of the true church."

7. John Wesley’s Notes
A woman - The emblem of the church of Christ, as she is originally of Israel…
who also carry the moon in their ensigns; and the crown of twelve stars, the twelve tribes of Israel; …

There you go. Not one of them states it the woman in Rev 12 is Mary so I’m not the only that disagrees. Among my sources are Protestants and Catholics. My point was that the woman did not represent Mary and I just provided a few credible sources that is in total alignment. I’m pretty sure that is within reasoning. But when you say I use “moronic expressions” and “ignorance” that is OK with everyone else? But if I say otherwise, I’m personally attacking you?…hypocrisy? this truly must be a Catholic forum

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

heeeeyyyy, sola fide, right on bro!

You meant Sola Ecclesia, didn’t you?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ok, Elvisman…no need to excommunicate me…its seems like the Spanish Inquisition meets the internet…just kidding…ok, with all jokes, arrogance, and sarcasm to the side, i do respect you! You are educated indeed and a fellow in Christ…but I must do defend myself…

So you were asking me how I came up with my own interpretation? The answer is I didn’t. I read in it a few Bibles and their side commentaries. I will site the references but I wanted to point out to you that not one of them mentions the woman in Rev 12 as Mary…
As I mentioned earlier, I did provide rational evidence on why I believe it’s Israel and the Christians (the early church) who were followers out of Israel and not Mary. The only thing that I didn’t agree on with you (and neither does the rest of my sources) is that it also implies Mary. So here they are:

There you go. Not one of them states it the woman in Rev 12 is Mary so I’m not the only that disagrees. Among my sources are Protestants and Catholics. My point was that the woman did not represent Mary and I just provided a few credible sources that is in total alignment. I’m pretty sure that is within reasoning. But when you say I use “moronic expressions” and “ignorance” that is OK with everyone else? But if I say otherwise, I’m personally attacking you?

If you search hard enough, you will find commentaries to fit your theology, similar to privately interpreting scriptures, if you try hard enough you can make scriptures fit your theology. I prefer to fit my theology to scriptures, which in turn directs me to His Church.

The Haydock Bible Commentary states:

Rev 12:1 A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. — A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) — On her head…twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)

The Catholic Bible Commentary states:

** XII 1-16 A Double Prefatory Vision (a) 1-16 A great ‘symbol’ in the sky —1, 2. A Woman, radiant with sun, moon and stars, crying aloud in her birthpangs. 3, 4. Another symbol in the sky: a fiery-red Dragon, with 7 heads royally crowned and 10 horns: his tail sweeps to earth one third of the stars.

1. He watches for the Birth that he may devour the Child.
2. But the Man-Child, when born, is carried up to God’s throne to shepherd the nations with the Messianic rod.**

The main reason I do not agree with you, or the commentaries you provided, is the context of the passage, which includes verse 5.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.

She, the woman, brought forth a man child, who would rule with the Messianic rod. The Church did not bring forth Christ, Christ brought forth the Church.

Now we should turn to the source of authority. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the following, referencing Revelation 12:

1138 “Recapitulated in Christ,” these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand), especially the martyrs “slain for the word of God,” and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb, and finally "a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues."

 

[meandean]

You meant Sola Ecclesia, didn’t you?

you were watching weren’t you? thought i’d slip that one in.(lol) how about sola scriptura instead?

 

[Hercules253]

She, the woman, brought forth a man child, who would rule with the Messianic rod. The Church did not bring forth Christ, Christ brought forth the Church.

So does Israel…

Isaiah 66:7-9
*
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son…Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children…“Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God. "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; *
**
Mic 4-6 **
Has your counselor perished, that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor? Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor…out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel…Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth…

Ok, so whats your point? Israel also went into labor and conceived a child, the Messiah

**You really don’t study scripture that much, do **you? If you did, you would understand the idea of polyvalent symbolism. This is where symbols have more than one meaning. Revelation uses this type of symbolism. Case in point, the seven heads of the beast are considered to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

So - how did you come up with your own personal interpretation of Rev. 12 when it differs from almost everybody else’s in the Protestant world?

According to Elvis, she represents the Church too and its considered a personal interpretation if you believe otherwise…so who’s really telling the truth? Might I add that if you didn’t get this, “you’re ignorant to Scriptures” according to Elvis…so what does that make you?..

I say its Israel and the followers of Christ, Christians (Church)
You say its Mary
Elvis says its all 3 entities symbolized as 1 (Church, Mary, Israel)

Not only do you have different interpretations, you also don’t agree with each other!
But when I don’t disagree, I’m ignorant…funny