C
CWBetts
Guest
- The Bibke is not our sole rule of faith.
- If you deny Mary as being the Mother of God, you are denying Jesus was either nit fully human or not fully God
- Status
E
elvisman
Guest
** Try Luke 1:43 for starters . . .**
"And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
E
elvisman
Guest
This is called the heresy of Nestorianism which was squelched in the 5th century.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
On the discussion of statues, I provided the instructions God gave for the ark, and I gave the description of the Temple Solomon built, which was sanctified by the Lord. The Temple had many carvings, cherubin, lions, trees, a lot of birds, etc. etc. These verses seem to put scriptures in the position of contradicting themselves, which we know cannot happen. The passages I provided seem to indicate the statues the Lord was against, were statues of gods other than Himself. See posts 95, 100 and/or 118, which summarizes the other posts.Prodigal Son, I’m starting fresh out of respect…Ok so please tell me what issues I haven’t addressed and I will get to it in a timely manner.
Remember, I cant keep up responding to all my fanswhen they are bombarding all at the same time…it would take me hours
But seriously, what questions have I neglected? I will try to get to them as soon as possible
You provided Luke 4:8 to support your view, but I provided several versions of the Bible to show they didn’t phrase it the same as you quoted. Your version phrased is as follows:
Luke 4:8 "You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore."
Those I provided distinguished it better, I thought.
**(DRB) And Jesus answering said to him. It is written: Thou shalt adore the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
(Etheridge) But Jeshu answered and said to him, It is written, That the Lord thy Aloha thou shalt worship, and him only shalt thou serve.
(IGNT+) καιG2532 AND αποκριθειςG611 [G5679] ANSWERING αυτωG846 HIM ειπενG2036 [G5627] οG3588 SAID ιησουςG2424 JESUS, υπαγεG5217 [G5720] GET THEE οπισωG3694 BEHIND μουG3450 ME, σαταναG4567 SATAN; γεγραπταιG1125 [G5769] γαρG1063 FOR IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN, προσκυνησειςG4352 [G5692] THOU SHALT WORSHIP “THE” κυριονG2962 τονG3588 LORD θεονG2316 σουG4675 THY GOD, καιG2532 AND αυτωG846 HIM μονωG3441 ONLY λατρευσειςG3000 [G5692] SHALT THOU SERVE.
(KJVA) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
(Murdock) But Jesus replied, and said to him: It is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
(NJB) But Jesus answered him, ‘Scripture says: You must do homage to the Lord your God, him alone you must serve.’
(RSV) And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”**
This was in reference to praying to Mary for her prayers. I was showing you the verse you provided did not apply, as long as we do not serve or worship Mary.
Believe me, I know what you’re going through. I am the only Catholic on a particular Church of God forum, where I started a thread entitled, “Ask a Catholic”. You talk about bombardment.
C
CWBetts
Guest
Thanks, I couldn’t remember the “official” name.
F
FromTheAshes777
Guest
I believe scripture is pretty clear that only God can judge a person’s heart. God alone knows who the faithful followers of Christ are and who are not.
A
AlwaysAsking
Guest
Hey I tried to read all the posts but eventually I gave up… think I got the gist…
Let me ask: What part of this discussion is making people huffy? Someone is frustrated because [you] Protestants seem to be rejecting a rich source of comfort in your lives.
Nobody seems ready to explain why they wouldn’t want to turn to Mary, as they would their closest, dearest friend on earth, for comfort. Everybody gets at least a B+ for pasting scripture into their replies, it’s not that…
But it DOES seem like you’re in a hurry to cut a rich source of comfort out of your life.
Since Christmas, my 2-year-old loves to put a cloth over her head and say, “I’m Mary!”
I hope she will always be inspired by Mary. I hope she will talk/ pray to Mary when she is alone and in need of comfort, sometimes a girl just needs to talk to another woman! The OP never asked anybody to worship Mary. Maybe re-read the OP?
Let me ask: What part of this discussion is making people huffy? Someone is frustrated because [you] Protestants seem to be rejecting a rich source of comfort in your lives.
Nobody seems ready to explain why they wouldn’t want to turn to Mary, as they would their closest, dearest friend on earth, for comfort. Everybody gets at least a B+ for pasting scripture into their replies, it’s not that…
But it DOES seem like you’re in a hurry to cut a rich source of comfort out of your life.
Since Christmas, my 2-year-old loves to put a cloth over her head and say, “I’m Mary!”
I hope she will always be inspired by Mary. I hope she will talk/ pray to Mary when she is alone and in need of comfort, sometimes a girl just needs to talk to another woman! The OP never asked anybody to worship Mary. Maybe re-read the OP?
H
Hercules253
Guest
Thank you Prodigal son. I will try my best attempt to make sure what I said won’t confuse anyone. I can honestly see how there was confusion on both ends.
I understand the value and intrinsic meaning of statues, after all, God instructed some of to be built: ie ark of the covenant. I understand that a Catholics perspective holds that a statue represents a remembrance similar to a picture. I never insinuated anything wrong with a statue. Please be open minded about where I am coming from regarding this issue. The following is a premise that I’m sure we (yes, including me) hold to be true:
-Statues always represent something other than itself.
-A Mary statue represents Mary
-We should honor Mary
However, I don’t feel its exceptional to reflect honor through a form of bowing down to someone especially their statue. Here is my reason:
- Peter told Cornelius to get up from not only bowing, but reverence as well because he is “just a man”. The same can be applied to Mary as well “as a woman”. Peter is one of the most significant people in the Catholic faith but yet rebukes his own reverence. Like God chose Mary for her role, Jesus also chose Peter to be the head of the Catholic Church.
*-when did she become a queen?
-How do we know she became a queen? did someone witness it in a vision?
(if you are going to say its in Revelation, then when did that become an official interpretation for the Catholics?)
-How come no apostles makes any mentions of her being ascended into Heaven…i mean that’s some heavy stuff there
-Why did it take hundreds of years to figure it out if it was an absolute truth and evident. The early church father’s could have at least said, “Peter, Paul, John, James, or Thomas told me directly and passed it on to me”…but instead the Catholics were arguing among themselves.
So Why did Peter refuse his own reverence and bowing to him?
I guess I’m just asking for an early credible source such as the Bible, an early church father writing, or proof that it was through apostolic tradition passed on. I’m not really asking for a lot. I do have the following books at home:
The Early Christian Fathers - Bettenson
Early Christian Doctrines- J.N.D. Kelly
Documents of the Christian Church- Bettenson
and still can’t find anything even alluding to her being a queen.
Going back to the statue and photo dilemma, I personally feel the photo can not analogous with a statue for this reason: we don’t bow down to photos nor revere them.
As for the statues such as the cherubim that God instructed to build, there was no reverence that ever took place. I hope you understand where I am coming from. I know I’m asking a lot but I want to learn so please be patient. I’m truly open minded and committed to the answer. Waiting for your response…*
H
Hercules253
Guest
That’s funny…you get angered for name calling and so you resort to the same…
and then you tell me to grow up instead of using name calling???
I say “Elvisboy” but you say expressions like ignorant, moronic, stupid, jerk…How is that justified?
Its like you cursing at someone that was cursing. What sense is that?
You accuse me of setting a wrong example but then you combat that with a far worse example…
What point are you trying to make of yourself? You’re taking this way too personal…
But that’s OK in this forum right folks? As long as Elvisman, the Catholic does it, its all good…and no one needs to say anything and point him out like they point me out…
*** there is no name calling in this thread at all if you noticed *****
If you really want to express how you really feel no need to do it here, send me your email and I will be glad to get in contact with you…
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
It’s my understanding that the Council of Ephesus made the proclamation that Mary was the Mother of God, the Son. It was through that proclamation that Mary was viewed as Queen of Heaven by Catholics and Orthodox, because of Biblical explanations already provided, with the exception of Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44.
Now is where I’ll ask you bare with me, as I realize that queen of heaven was an idol that was worshipped in Israel and Judah. I believe there is another example, from Christ Himself, to show that replacements of idols, or false gods, for the true Kingdom of God is acceptable. Hopefully, this explanation will not sidetrack this discussion.
The example of a replacement of false gods is Christ’s choice of Caesarea Philippi as the place to announce He was building His Church. Caesarea Philippi was named by Herod Philip, however it was the location of Panion, the city of Pan. dedicated to the Greek God Pan. Why would Christ choose a spot that was dedicated to the great god of pagans, a god who essence was sexual and leaned towards depravity, a spot that represents evil? It is also interesting to note that Pan was known as the god of shepherds and flocks.
The mountain of Caesarea Philippi was believed to have been the spot where the gates of a great abyss (gates of hell) existed, below the rock mountain of Caesarea Philippi.
If Christ could have chosen a place so antithetical to the Kingdom of God, certainly a replacement for the queen of heaven in the Old Testament is acceptable, especially in light of who we are speaking of, Mary His own mother. Christ’s Church was the antithesis to everything which kept men from the Kingdom, just as the Church’s decision to give Mary the title, Queen of Heaven, was the antithesis to an idol, goddess, that had claimed the title, which also led men astray from God.
**Luk 1:31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. **
In the passage above, we recognize Christ is the Messianic King. As we’ve explained, and demonstrated with scriptures referencing Solomon and his mother, in Israel in those times, the mother of the king became the queen mother. The above passage also specifically places Christ on the throne of David, father to Solomon, which makes Mary the Queen Mother now and forever, just as Christ’s Kingdom is, now and forever.
Revelations 12 is supporting scripture for this belief. When did this interpretation become “official” as you say, I don’t know. I am a Catholic, converted from Protestantism in 1985, who accepts many Church teachings on faith, since I believe this is the Church Christ built and made Peter prime minister of. As Protestants would say, the Holy Spirit leads me to believe that is what the scriptures reference.
Mary’s was an assumption into heaven. That was at the end of her life, she was taken, body and soul, into heaven. Nowhere will scriptures speak of this, but if Elijah and Enoch were taken, the implication of assumption is Biblical. Just as John tells us, not everything Christ did was written about, I’d expect much less about His mother being written.
The infallibility of the Church is something Catholics believe in, because of Christ’s promises.
**Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.**
Why did it take the Church so long to make an infallible decision? One, because the Church does not rush to make infallible decisions. There is much reading, reflecting and prayer that needs to be completed first. Secondly, somethings were believed, without question. It was only when a belief appears to be endangered, that the Church acts out of necessity, similar to the example of the definition of the canon of the New Testament I provided in another post. The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.
(to be continued)
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
(continued)
Why did Peter refused to be bowed too? You have to recognize that Peter was somewhat slow in assuming his position, afterall he was just a fisherman when Christ chose him. Also, I see truth in Peter’s words. Why bow to him, he was just a man. I believe alot of people that bow to the Pope today, are more or less bowing to the title received from Apostolic succession, as given by Christ Himself.
Real quick, I want point out at this time, that Catholics view the ark of the covenant as a typological example to Mary, the ark of the new covenant. The vessel where God was present.
I’d like to provide you a link to the writings of the early Church fathers. They are too expensive to purchase, as there are 38 volumes. The link I use comes from a Protestant website. It would be a good supplement to any books you may own. I’m not using these as a source for you to search through, I’m only sharing, what I consider, an invaluable source of Christian history.
From the scriptures that Catholics have provided, my only hope is that you, and other Protestants, recognize that, even if you do not agree with the interpretation. Catholic beliefs originate from scriptures. I rely heavily on scriptures to discuss any Catholic belief a Protestant brings up.
I apologize for the long explanation, but it’s still a summary to the discussion.
Why did Peter refused to be bowed too? You have to recognize that Peter was somewhat slow in assuming his position, afterall he was just a fisherman when Christ chose him. Also, I see truth in Peter’s words. Why bow to him, he was just a man. I believe alot of people that bow to the Pope today, are more or less bowing to the title received from Apostolic succession, as given by Christ Himself.
Real quick, I want point out at this time, that Catholics view the ark of the covenant as a typological example to Mary, the ark of the new covenant. The vessel where God was present.
I’d like to provide you a link to the writings of the early Church fathers. They are too expensive to purchase, as there are 38 volumes. The link I use comes from a Protestant website. It would be a good supplement to any books you may own. I’m not using these as a source for you to search through, I’m only sharing, what I consider, an invaluable source of Christian history.
From the scriptures that Catholics have provided, my only hope is that you, and other Protestants, recognize that, even if you do not agree with the interpretation. Catholic beliefs originate from scriptures. I rely heavily on scriptures to discuss any Catholic belief a Protestant brings up.
I apologize for the long explanation, but it’s still a summary to the discussion.
B
BareKnuckler
Guest
It is one thing to diss a man, It is one thing to diss a religion, It is quite another to diss the King.
Sir, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Neji7/dr_Phil_saiz_you_fail.jpg
H
Hercules253
Guest
Prodigal Son thank you for the information. It is greatly appreciated and so far you have done more than anyone in explaining it. I truly got a lot out of your information. It was long but I certainly got a lot out of it and I’m sure this is new information for others to learn as well.
I know the Bible records of Enoch and Elijah into heaven. But the whole point is that it was “recorded”. I just think a miraculous event like that would certainly be prospect into recorded Scripture just like it was with Jesus. John, the apostle whom Jesus entrusted to take care for his Mother never recorded her ascension. One can use Revelation but it was a just a vision and not direct eye witness testimonial.
If Jesus died around 33AD Mary could not have lived any longer than 120AD, in the lifetime of the Church Fathers and New Testament writers. During that interval, the great Church was slowly but surely progressing its way into its early development but still no one records that historical event.
After it was realized, no one established an actual date of when she was assumed.
I’m really interested in the “timing”. and perhaps influence.
The early Church Fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ireneus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Tertulian surprisingly enough don’t make any mentions about it but yet they address all other matter regarding her. They even include that Mary was blessed and the Mother of God.
St. Justin in Dialogue with Trypho, 100 A.D writes about her being a virgin and being obedient as well as Ireneus in Against Heresies, 3, 19. in 130 AD
These men that were alive in the time span of the living Mary assert the following about Mary:
She existed
She was blessed
She was married to Joseph
She was a Virgin
She was full of grace
She was pure
She was the Mother of Jesus
She deserves honor
She was visited by an angel
She was obedient
She became the New Eve…
These claims can also be traced back to Bible but why was not her ascension and queenship included among this? Lack of evidence can not be a burden of proof. I’m just still investigating. Who knows? I might uncover the Truth about Mary and see what you see. I’m open to learning but until I find it reasonable, I don’t find any personal Truth into it just yet. I’m patient.
Also since Saul became King, then would his mother be considered a Queen?
Thank you for your patience and your (name removed by moderator)ut! (Edited) You have been a lot of help and looking forward to the answer
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
As you stated, Mary could have lived until 120AD and we know the majority of the books of the Bible were written around 60AD (all presumably written before 70AD) with the exception of Revelations, which is believed to have been written around 100AD. Why nothing was written, one can only speculate. Why was nothing written about Joseph? What happened to all of the 12? Maybe a more important question would be, how does any of this affect one’s salvation?
We know it was the Council of Ephesus that made the proclamation and tradition has it that St. John and Mary moved there. Did they have more information than we have today? Was the proclamation made to preserve a belief that had become endangered? I cannot answer that, myself.
There is documentation that early reformers believed that Mary was in heaven and queen of heavenly powers. It seems that belief has become diluted through the rise of multiple denominations.
When I asked, how does any of this affect one’s salvation, it was a serious question for people to reflect on. While we have dogma beliefs, it is required for Catholics to pray to the Blessed Mother? Does praying for the Blessed Mother to pray for us provide one with salvation in itself? The answer is no, to both questions.
As for King Saul and his mother, I don’t even know if she was alive when he was anointed. Do you? As I stated earlier, Israel, during Biblical times, the mother of the king became the Queen Mother. If I’m not mistaken the establishing mothers to Queen Mothers started with Solomon and Bathsheba.
(Edited) Anyways, let’s keep the discussions as charitable as possible.
O
OnlyJesus
Guest
”Give her your pain. give her your problems”
HUH???!!!
I pray to my Heavenly Father God, he hears about my pain and problems. I pray and ask in the name of Jesus as Jesus himself instructed…
Jesus didn’t say “learn of my mother and she will give you rest unto your soul“
Jesus said “learn of ME“.
Jesus didn’t say “ go to my mother in times of trouble”
Jesus said “Come unto ME”.
Jesus didn’t say, “whatsoever you ask in my mother’s name, that she will do“
Jesus said “whatsoever you ask in MY name, that I will do.
And this quote:
“To deny Mary as the Mother of God is to deny the divinity of Christ“
Mary, as Jesus Mother has nothing to do with the “Divinity of Christ”. The Holy Spirit of God which impregnated Mary, DID.
The name Mary is mentioned 46 times in the New Testament according to bible gateway .com King James version. There were several Marys. With regard to Jesus mother, Mary, scriptures describer her as:
no scripture which indicated she is anything other than a pure young woman, a virgin, I see :
Mary, of whom was born Jesus
Mary was espoused to Joseph
before they ( Mary and Joseph ) came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost
that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
This is a good verse to read which shows the clear distinction between Jesus and Mary:
Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child ( Jesus ) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him ( JESUS ): and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him ( JESUS ) gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
I love Mary as Christ’s mother…God chose her as a chaste young women for conception BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Christ IS God. God is DIVINE in all his forms. Mary has no divinity at all. She is blessed and honored and remembered.
HUH???!!!
I pray to my Heavenly Father God, he hears about my pain and problems. I pray and ask in the name of Jesus as Jesus himself instructed…
Jesus didn’t say “learn of my mother and she will give you rest unto your soul“
Jesus said “learn of ME“.
Jesus didn’t say “ go to my mother in times of trouble”
Jesus said “Come unto ME”.
Jesus didn’t say, “whatsoever you ask in my mother’s name, that she will do“
Jesus said “whatsoever you ask in MY name, that I will do.
And this quote:
“To deny Mary as the Mother of God is to deny the divinity of Christ“
Mary, as Jesus Mother has nothing to do with the “Divinity of Christ”. The Holy Spirit of God which impregnated Mary, DID.
The name Mary is mentioned 46 times in the New Testament according to bible gateway .com King James version. There were several Marys. With regard to Jesus mother, Mary, scriptures describer her as:
no scripture which indicated she is anything other than a pure young woman, a virgin, I see :
Mary, of whom was born Jesus
Mary was espoused to Joseph
before they ( Mary and Joseph ) came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost
that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
This is a good verse to read which shows the clear distinction between Jesus and Mary:
Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child ( Jesus ) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him ( JESUS ): and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him ( JESUS ) gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
I love Mary as Christ’s mother…God chose her as a chaste young women for conception BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Christ IS God. God is DIVINE in all his forms. Mary has no divinity at all. She is blessed and honored and remembered.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Not trying to be rude, but please read through the entire thread as your concerns, or objections, have been addressed, multiple times.
O
OnlyJesus
Guest
Rinnie, you do greatly err in this statement you made:
“Yes Jesus suffered and died for us. But the Blessed Mother suffered and died for us
to.”
WHAT??? >>> “The Blessed Mother SUFFERED AND DIED FOR US TOO.”
I absolutely cannot believe you made that statement. Can you not see that is a total falsehood. No where in scripture is stated that Mary SUFFERED and DIED FOR US TOO!!! So now Mary is our Saviour!???
Your words falsely elevated Mary to the DIVINE status of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! There is NO SAVIOUR BUT GOD.
“Yes Jesus suffered and died for us. But the Blessed Mother suffered and died for us
to.”
WHAT??? >>> “The Blessed Mother SUFFERED AND DIED FOR US TOO.”
I absolutely cannot believe you made that statement. Can you not see that is a total falsehood. No where in scripture is stated that Mary SUFFERED and DIED FOR US TOO!!! So now Mary is our Saviour!???
Your words falsely elevated Mary to the DIVINE status of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! There is NO SAVIOUR BUT GOD.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
We honor Mary, we do not worship her. She is not divine.
Please take a word of advice and drop the condescending tone and caps. It only invalidates anything you might have to contribute to the discussion. Also, please read through the entire thread before posting. Your objections or concerns have already been addressed multiple times.
M
meandean
Guest
my bible says blessed among women… not blessed above women.what does your say? oh save your breath, there is no reason to respond. there is definitely a reason why jesus never referred to mary as mother or mom in the bible. something as crazy as this line of thinking happened in your church. sadly, your church has accepted this lie. all satan wants is to get your eyes off the one who is, and was ,and forever will be my wonderful jesus.
B
Benjamin8o8
Guest
Our Church is the Church that your wonderful Jesus (and mine
) found. So saying the devil has made us believe a lie is going against scripture.- Status