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“No Mary, No Jesus!”

See there it is again, putting Mary BEFORE Jesus.

Genesis: Let US make man in OUR image. ( Us= Trinity )

Father, Son ( JESUS ) and Holy Ghost
i.e. The Trinity existed in the Beginning.

Mary didn’t come along for a while later:)
The Holy Trinity indeed existed in the beginning, so the second person must have existed in the beginning. But Jesus did not. Jesus is the Incarnate Word, the second person of the Trinity given flesh. His flesh did not exist until Jesus was conceived. This does not by any means make Mary greater than Jesus. So, “No Mary, no Jesus” is a fact.
 
With that intimate knowledge in mind, we choose to go to the Mother (Blessed Mother) as one of the paths that are available to us to ask her to intercede for us with the Father.

Why would you ask Mary to intercede to God, when Hebrews 7:25 says of Christ:

25 Wherefore** he is able also to save them** to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
When you ask the Blessed Mother to intercede for you, who is she supposed to go to if Not God. All intercession is addressed to God. Rather you pray for me, or I pray for you or the Blessed Mother prays for me. All good things come from the Father. As RC we are taught all things come from the Father.
 
The Holy Trinity indeed existed in the beginning, so the second person must have existed in the beginning. But Jesus did not. Jesus is the Incarnate Word, the second person of the Trinity given flesh. His flesh did not exist until Jesus was conceived. This does not by any means make Mary greater than Jesus. So, “No Mary, no Jesus” is a fact.
Im with you there. Where did anyone say that Mary came before God?
 
First of all, I don’t think there is a Christian worth his/her weight, who would deny the HUGE importance of Mary in the plan of salvation! But I want Jesus at my death, not Mary! And there’s no need to pray through her or the saints, when we have the Advocate, that Jesus Himself promised us; just as we don’t have to confess our sins to a priest! And if Mary was completely sinless, why would she say," I rejoice in my God and my Saviour(Luke1:47)?
Why would you ask Mary to intercede to God, when Hebrews 7:25 says of Christ:

25 Wherefore** he is able also to save them** to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Tell me something – do you or have you ever asked anybody to pray for you or for a special intention? Have you ever been asked to pray for someone? Have you ever been part of a prayer chain? Then you are an intercessor.

**The difference is that those in heaven have been made perfect in the Lord. They are more alive than you or I and are actually WITH God in heaven – you’re not. You’re imperfect – so am I. **
BUT for those who say that we are praying to dead people – or that we shouldn’t pray for one another – you don’t know your Scripture.
 
this is kinda off topic but related to the scriptures being discussed:

“the woman in Revelation was in safety for 3 1/2 years…no Mary there”

I believe the woman in Revelations represents Mary of course b/c the child described is Jesus. Mary is also symbolic for Israel. God has not forgotten his covenants with the people of Israel. I believe the woman in Rev is also the true church of Christ which is his bride, comprised of Christ believing Jews and Gentiles.

If you replace “woman” with the word church being in safety for 3 1/2 years…that is the Lord’s protection of his church from his wrath which is going to fall on the earth during the Tribulation Period, time of Jacob’s Trouble.

You know that some Christians, i think referred to as “evangelicals” some believe that Christ returns to pull his Church out of the earth at some point either just before, halfway thru Trib. or after.

I like reading discussions even those who differ, many times it forces a review of scriptures, which is what we’re told to do is to search them and many times I learn something new.

Scripture says God blinded Israel. Paul said he received revelation from Christ himself that had been kept a secret ( mystery ) since the foundation of the world. And I believe in the last times, God is pouring out his Spirit on many in the world and the scales that have been on our eyes regarding his Word, are being removed…meaning we will understand more and more as time progresses. I think also we will learn the true meanings.

I said all of that to get to this…some believe the Church will be removed from earth before God’s wrath is poured out…you know one in the field, one is left the other is taken. I definitely believe God will protect his people.

A dear believer came across with something I never heard in my life, an interpretation of that verse and others, that unbelievers will be removed from earth not the believers. I used to think that was so far out and wrong but when you think in terms of God protecting his believers ON EARTH yes it is possible. Read about Rahab and Jericho, how she was saved and her household by remaining in her house and the scarlet thread marked her house.

Remember Noah and his family in a sense were “removed” from harm’s way during the flood.

Remember the First Passover, how lambs blood on the Jews’ doors prevented death from taking their firstborn.
 
  • “Why not just trust in God as opposed to asking other Christians to pray for you?
    _____________*_____”
We pray one for another as instructed by scriptures:
**
James 5:16**

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Paul to the church at Rome:
Romans 15:30
Now* I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;*

Paul to the church at Corinth:
2 Corinthians 1:11
Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
2 Corinthians 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Paul to the church of Colossus:
Colossians 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Just a few, we believers are to pray for each other.
So it’d be superlative to have Mary, the angels, and saints to pray for us.
 
this is kinda off topic but related to the scriptures being discussed:

“the woman in Revelation was in safety for 3 1/2 years…no Mary there”

I believe the woman in Revelations represents Mary of course b/c the child described is Jesus. Mary is also symbolic for Israel. God has not forgotten his covenants with the people of Israel. I believe the woman in Rev is also the true church of Christ which is his bride, comprised of Christ believing Jews and Gentiles.

If you replace “woman” with the word church being in safety for 3 1/2 years…that is the Lord’s protection of his church from his wrath which is going to fall on the earth during the Tribulation Period, time of Jacob’s Trouble.

You know that some Christians, i think referred to as “evangelicals” some believe that Christ returns to pull his Church out of the earth at some point either just before, halfway thru Trib. or after.

I like reading discussions even those who differ, many times it forces a review of scriptures, which is what we’re told to do is to search them and many times I learn something new.

Scripture says God blinded Israel. Paul said he received revelation from Christ himself that had been kept a secret ( mystery ) since the foundation of the world. And I believe in the last times, God is pouring out his Spirit on many in the world and the scales that have been on our eyes regarding his Word, are being removed…meaning we will understand more and more as time progresses. I think also we will learn the true meanings.

I said all of that to get to this…some believe the Church will be removed from earth before God’s wrath is poured out…you know one in the field, one is left the other is taken. I definitely believe God will protect his people.

A dear believer came across with something I never heard in my life, an interpretation of that verse and others, that unbelievers will be removed from earth not the believers. I used to think that was so far out and wrong but when you think in terms of God protecting his believers ON EARTH yes it is possible. Read about Rahab and Jericho, how she was saved and her household by remaining in her house and the scarlet thread marked her house.

Remember Noah and his family in a sense were “removed” from harm’s way during the flood.

Remember the First Passover, how lambs blood on the Jews’ doors prevented death from taking their firstborn.
Actually I am going to have to call you on that one. Mary was taken away (the Apostle John was who was told to look after her) and she was protected and hidden right after the death of Jesus. Because Jesus knew she would be in harms way after his death. And after Jesus Christians we being persecuted. Look at the Apostles for goodness sakes.
 
The title “Mother of God” can save several meanings and not to be confused with divinity. She only have Him his physical nature. Technically she is the mother of God in a non-divine sense. Theologically, no one can be the Divine Mother of someone who is the Alpha and Omega and uncreated.

I agree.

Christ existed BEFORE Mary. Down here on earth, mothers exist before their children, so yes it is confusing to say and I believe improper to use the term Mother of God, b/c it denotes that Mary existed before God.

God is a spirit. In order for him to come down to us he needed to be born in the same manner as we are, with one exception. God as Jesus could not be born from seed of man therefore the conception was by God’s Holy Spirit. For Jesus to not be born “in sin” God required a clean vessel to nurture the Christ child. Mary found favour with God. God chose Mary.

Let’s not forget that Mary was Joseph’s espoused wife. Is God an adulterer then breaking his own law? No. God could not allow himself to be born out of wedlock so Mary was chosen for her lineage as well as Joseph was chosen for his lineage…so that the prophets predictions of Christ would be correct. After Mary delivered Jesus then she was still Joseph’s wife. Scripture tell us that Joseph never had sex with Mary prior to Jesus’ conception. She was a virgin.

Jesus had siblings that were not conceived by the Holy Spirit but by Joseph, Mary’s husband. Scriptures give no indication that Mary remained in a perpetual virginal state.

I
To deny Mary as Mother of God is to deny the unique nature of Christ. To say that Mary is not the Mother of God you must do one of two things. You must either say that Jesus was not fully man, or you must deny that he was fully God. Which will it be. If you agree that Jesus was both fully God and Fully man, then you must concede that Mary should rightfully be called the Mother of God.
 
*Jesus had siblings that were not conceived by the Holy Spirit but by Joseph, Mary’s husband. Scriptures give no indication that Mary remained in a perpetual virginal state.
*

The Bible clearly says that Jesus had brothers and sisters, but the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin…how can you reconcile those seemingly different positions?

Mk 6:3 says, “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon, and are not His sisters here with us?” We need to realize a few things here about these “brothers and sisters”: #1, there was no word for cousin, or for nephew or niece, or for aunt or uncle in ancient Hebrew or Aramaic - the words that the Jews used in all those instances were “brother” or “sister”. An example of this can be seen in Gen 14:14, where Lot, who was Abraham’s nephew, is called his brother.

Another point to consider. If Jesus had had any brothers, if Mary had had any other sons, would the last thing that Jesus did on earth be to grievously offend his surviving brothers? In Jn 19:26-27, right before Jesus dies, it says that Jesus entrusted the care of His mother to the beloved disciple, John. If Mary had had any other sons, it would have been an incredible slap in the face to them that the Apostle John was entrusted with the care of their mother!

Also, we see from Mt. 27:55-56, that the James and Joses mentioned in Mark 6 as the “brothers” of Jesus, are actually the sons of another Mary. And, one other passage to consider is Acts 1:14-15, “[The Apostles] with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with His brothers…the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty.” A company of 120 persons composed of the Apostles, Mary, the women, and the “brothers” of Jesus. Let’s see there were 11 Apostles at the time. Jesus’ mother makes 12. The women, probably the same three women mentioned in Matthew 27, but let’s say it was maybe a dozen or two, just for argument’s sake. So that puts us up to 30 or 40 or so. So that leaves the number of Jesus’ brothers at about 80 or 90! Do you think Mary had 80 or 90 children? She would have been in perpetual labor! No, Scripture does not contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church about the “brothers” of Jesus, when Scripture is properly interpreted in context.

biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#12
 
Again easy one. In the bible in those days cousins, all relatives were considered brothers. Look it up. You will find out that it is true.
 
Don’t forget to ask why would Jesus on the Cross said to his disciple that this is your mother. Why give him responsibility for his mother if he had siblings? Seems ludicrous.
 
To deny Mary as Mother of God is to deny the unique nature of Christ. To say that Mary is not the Mother of God you must do one of two things. You must either say that Jesus was not fully man, or you must deny that he was fully God. Which will it be. If you agree that Jesus was both fully God and Fully man, then you must concede that Mary should rightfully be called the Mother of God.
The Lord Jesus eternally existed as God the Son, before He was born physically, through Mary, to also become the Son of Man.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus was already the Son of God before He became the Son of Man also. You confuse this fact by using the unbiblical term “Mother of God”.
This term was used to overcome those who do not properly understand that Jesus was both fully God and fully Man, but it creates an inaccurate description of Mary, in that Mary could never be the mother of Jesus’ Deity. Mary would have to also be God to be the actual “Mother of God”.

Jesus had no physical father and Jesus had no spiritual mother. That fact is confused with an inaccurate term such as “Mother of God”.
 
The Lord Jesus eternally existed as God the Son, before He was born physically, through Mary, to also become the Son of Man.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus was already the Son of God before He became the Son of Man also. You confuse this fact by using the unbiblical term “Mother of God”.
This term was used to overcome those who do not properly understand that Jesus was both fully God and fully Man, but it creates an inaccurate description of Mary, in that Mary could never be the mother of Jesus’ Deity. Mary would have to also be God to be the actual “Mother of God”.

Jesus had no physical father and Jesus had no spiritual mother. That fact is confused with an inaccurate term such as “Mother of God”.
Mother of God is fully appropriate. I explained why. To deny Mary as Mother of God is to deny the dual nature of Christ. Period. Which do you deny?
 
The Lord Jesus eternally existed as God the Son, before He was born physically, through Mary, to also become the Son of Man.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus was already the Son of God before He became the Son of Man also. You confuse this fact by using the unbiblical term “Mother of God”.
This term was used to overcome those who do not properly understand that Jesus was both fully God and fully Man, but it creates an inaccurate description of Mary, in that Mary could never be the mother of Jesus’ Deity. Mary would have to also be God to be the actual “Mother of God”.

Jesus had no physical father and Jesus had no spiritual mother. That fact is confused with an inaccurate term such as “Mother of God”.
The incarnation required a human to cooperate with Gods power and grace so that he who would be conceived of Mary would be both divine and human. GOD TOLD her through Gabriel that she would be the Mother of God. Now you are saying thats a lie?
 
The Lord Jesus eternally existed as God the Son, before He was born physically, through Mary, to also become the Son of Man.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus was already the Son of God before He became the Son of Man also. You confuse this fact by using the unbiblical term “Mother of God”.
This term was used to overcome those who do not properly understand that Jesus was both fully God and fully Man, but it creates an inaccurate description of Mary, in that Mary could never be the mother of Jesus’ Deity. Mary would have to also be God to be the actual “Mother of God”.

Jesus had no physical father and Jesus had no spiritual mother. That fact is confused with an inaccurate term such as “Mother of God”.
Luke 1:
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”
 
Theotokos is a Greek Title for Mary that the early Church selected to explain the mystery of how God is with us in Jesus Christ. Jesus is truly God and truly man and she gave birth to him. She gave birth to the person who combines the human nature and divine nature in one person. The Church does not hesitate to call Mary the Theotokos or (the bearer of GOD). Even before Jesus was born Elizabeth called her the Mother of My Lord. Was Elizabeth not telling the truth or what?
 
From the Council of Ephesus, 431:

The holy and great Synod therefore says, that the only begotten Son, born according to nature of God the Father, very God of very God, Light of Light, by whom the Father made all things, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man, suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven. These words and these decrees we ought to follow, considering what is meant by the Word of God being incarnate and made man. For we do not say that the nature of the Word was changed and became flesh, or that it was converted into a whole man consisting of soul and body; but rather that the Word having personally united to himself flesh animated by a rational soul, did in an ineffable and inconceivable manner become man, and was called the Son of Man, not merely as willing or being pleased to be so called, neither on account of taking to himself a person, but because the two natures being brought together in a true union, there is of both one Christ and one Son; for the difference of the natures is not taken away by the union, but rather the divinity and the humanity make perfect for us the one Lord Jesus Christ by their ineffable and inexpressible union. So then he who had an existence before all ages and was born of the Father, is said to have been born according to the flesh of a woman, not as though his divine nature received its beginning of existence in the holy Virgin, for it needed not any second generation after that of the Father (for it would be absurd and foolish to say that he who existed before all ages, coeternal with the Father, needed any second beginning of existence), but since, for us and for our salvation, he personally united to himself an human body, and came forth of a woman, he is in this way said to be born after the flesh; for he was not first born a common man of the holy Virgin, and then the Word came down and entered into him, but the union being made in the womb itself, he is said to endure a birth after the flesh, ascribing to himself the birth of his own flesh. On this account we say that he suffered and rose again; not as if God the Word suffered in his own nature stripes, or the piercing of the nails, or any other wounds, for the Divine nature is incapable of suffering, inasmuch as it is incorporeal, but since that which had become his own body suffered in this way, he is also said to suffer for us; for he who is in himself incapable of suffering was in a suffering body. In the same manner also we conceive respecting his dying; for the Word of God is by nature immortal and incorruptible, and life and life-giving; since, however, his own body did, as Paul says, by the grace of God taste death for every man, he himself is said to have suffered death for us, not as if he had any experience of death in his own nature (for it would be madness to say or think this), but because, as I have just said, his flesh tasted death. In like manner his flesh being raised again, it is spoken of as his resurrection, not as if he had fallen into corruption (God forbid), but because his own body was raised again. We, therefore, confess one Christ and Lord, not as worshipping. a man with the Word (lest this expression with the Word should suggest to the mind the idea of division), but worshipping him as one and the same, forasmuch as the body of the Word, with which he sits with the Father, is not separated from the Word himself, not as if two sons were sitting with him, but one by the union with the flesh. If, however, we reject the personal union as impossible or unbecoming, we fall into the error of speaking of two sons, for it will be necessary to distinguish, and to say, that he who was properly man was honoured with the appellation of Son, and that he who is properly the Word of God, has by nature both the name and the reality of Sonship. We must not, therefore, divide the one Lord Jesus Christ into two Sons. Neither will it at all avail to a sound faith to hold, as some do, an union of persons; for the Scripture has not said that the Word united to himself the person of man, but that he was made flesh. This expression, however, the Word was made flesh, can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin, the Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word being personally united is said to be born according to the flesh. These things, therefore, I now write unto you for the love of Christ, beseeching you as a brother, and testifying to you before Christ and the elect angels, that you would both think and teach these things with us, that the peace of the Churches may be preserved and the bond of concord and love continue unbroken among the Priests of God.
 
The incarnation required a human to cooperate with Gods power and grace so that he who would be conceived of Mary would be both divine and human. GOD TOLD her through Gabriel that she would be the Mother of God. Now you are saying thats a lie?
You are twisting Scripture by using “Mother of God”. There is no such term in the Bible.
 
You are twisting Scripture by using “Mother of God”. There is no such term in the Bible.
When Elizabeth said “the mother of my Lord”
Who is she referring to? Who is her “Lord”?
 
You are twisting Scripture by using “Mother of God”. There is no such term in the Bible.
Neither are there “Altar Calls” “Music Ministers” “Love Offerings” “Hymnals” “Sunday School Teachers” or “Bus Ministries”

We ALL rely on traditions.

The differnce is Catholics admit it.
 
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