Protestants listen up

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually, as a child of God, and knowing Jesus as my personal Saviour, I do believe that His words apply to me,as well as they did to believers and His apostles back then! And I know all about the Pentecost, don’t need a history lesson Boy, this forum is fun!

That’s according to your private interpretation. Where in scriptures does it tell us to interpret scriptures for ourselves?

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

I’ve noticed Catholics are using alot of scriptures to support their views, but I see very little from Protestants, and then it’s usually a verse pulled out of context. Christ chose the authority of His Church, they did not choose Him. You have to read who He was speaking too. Sure we can learn from what He told them, but He did not make everyone an Apostle.

To read scriptures in context, one must read the chapter a verse is in. To understand the chapter, one must read the book the chapter is in. To understand the book, one must read the New Testament. To understand the New Testament, one must read the Old Testament.

 

[1beleevr]

Prodigal son1: Like many of usChristians, have you been one, a prodigal son, I mean? My point about how one dresses, was and is: Other catholics on this forum, have made it sound like it is better to dress up, rather than casual, for church service! I am simply saying, that I believe that God is more concerned with the state of your heart, rather than your clothing:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

I would like to know, how is not confessing to a priest, a mortal sin?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal son1: Like many of usChristians, have you been one, a prodigal son, I mean? My point about how one dresses, was and is: Other catholics on this forum, have made it sound like it is better to dress up, rather than casual, for church service! I am simply saying, that I believe that God is more concerned with the state of your heart, rather than your clothing:thumbsup:

Catholics are Christians and yes I am one.

How one dresses is not doctrinal, so Catholics are at liberty to disagree on this.

I believe Christ would rather see people in His Church in levis, than not at all. Men cannot see what the Lord can see and that’s what’s in someone’s heart. With that said, modesty should be a concern.

But this is a moot argument, since it has nothing to do with someone’s salvation. It seems to be an arguing point or just another thing to disagree with for the sake of disagreeing, especially in light of the fact you do not address many points raised, or the scriptures being provided to support a view.

Let me ask you again, what do you hope to achieve here? It doesn’t seem to be an honest attempt at discussion, especially with the tone of your posts. I’m just being honest here.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I would like to know, how is not confessing to a priest, a mortal sin?

Christ gave the men of His Church the authority to forgive and retain sins. How can they forgive or retain sins if you don’t confess them?

**2Co 5:17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
2Co 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. **

 

[1beleevr]

Prodigal: What I am trying to prove here is:1) That God speaks directly to His children,2)It is possible to confess your sins directly to Him(1John 1:9), and that you can go to Heaven if you’re not a catholic! I know this is a catholic forum, and you’re trying to advance this religion, while some of us are trying to advance the Kingdom! I am also calling attention to, some cathoilcs blatant condemnation of those who are non-cathoilcs, or disagree with the catholic way! I for one cannot believe that Jesus was so exclusive with the Good News(John 3:16), as to say, “Only catholics will see the Kingdom of God”. Call me ignorant(Matthew 7:1-5), deluded or whatever, but because I am accepted by God, I can be rejected by man:thumbsup: You believe what you believe, because you are either a “cradle catholic”(I still think that is so cute) or you believe what somone told you! And only God knows what is in my heart; you can only assume!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal: What I am trying to prove here is:1) That God speaks directly to His children,2)It is possible to confess your sins directly to Him(1John 1:9), and that you can go to Heaven if you’re not a catholic! I know this is a catholic forum, and you’re trying to advance this religion, while some of us are trying to advance the Kingdom! I am also calling attention to, some cathoilcs blatant condemnation of those who are non-cathoilcs, or disagree with the catholic way! I for one cannot believe that Jesus was so exclusive with the Good News(John 3:16), as to say, “Only catholics will see the Kingdom of God”. Call me ignorant(Matthew 7:1-5), deluded or whatever, but because I am accepted by God, I can be rejected by man:thumbsup: You believe what you believe, because you are either a “cradle catholic”(I still think that is so cute) or you believe what somone told you! And only God knows what is in my heart; you can only assume!

Well you don’t seem to be honest in a discussion, in that you don’t answer any questions put forth, but only come back with more questions.

Advancing Catholicism is advancing the Kingdom of God.

I converted in 1985. No one evangelized me. I started an in-depth research on Bible and Church history when I questioned all the Protestant denominations, all with slight to great differences in doctrines, based on someone’s private interpretation of scriptures. God is not confusion, and that’s what Protestantism is. Which denomination is right? Which denomination has the authority to say they are right, or another is wrong?

Alot of what is read in the Bible is an example we can live by, but there are specific instances where Christ addressed a specific audience, for example a lot of what He said was spoken to those He chose and appointed/ordained. He does not say, and all that forgives sin those sins will be forgiven, He was speaking to the men of authority, He chose, within His Church.

I know you have a love for Christ and I don’t judge you. The same is expected of you on these forums. Can you see what’s in any Catholic’s heart?

 

[mrflibbleisvryx]

**For the first part of your question read Mark 7:8,13 regarding tradition. Then read II Timothy 3:15-17. Point #2 **The word rapture in 1 Thess 4:17 comes from the Latin Vulgate, which translates the phrase “caught up” with rapturus, from which we get our English word rapture. Point #3 go to point #1 No where does God say to keep His Word to ourselves but is the basis for the Christian life. Not Tradition because of what some council or priest passes down. Point #4 The Trinity can be found all the way in Genesis 1:26. Hope this helps you to better understand God’s Word.

I would just like to note that at the time 2 Timothy (and all the Gospels, New Testament letters, etc) were written there were no “sacred scriptures” known as the New Testament. The scriptures any apostle would be referring to is the Old Testament (specifically, the Greek translation of it, aka the Septuagint). When Jesus Himself referred to the teachings of Moses and the Law/Scriptures, he was referring to the Old Testament and the Hebrew traditions.

It wasn’t until the Catholic Church hashed out what was what that what we know as the New Testament became canon. And how did they know which books to include? Try tradition. Most protestant groups will even acknowledge that the NT as we know it today was deemed canonical because these were the books “traditionally” used by the various groups of believers. Heck, I’m protestant and I’m aware of this basic fact. Which is why you can’t use the NT to verify sola scriptura; if we applied sola scriptura to what the apostles would have considered “scripture” we’d be limiting ourselves to the Old Testament only.

It is also helpful to acknowledge that even the Hebrews did not rely on scripture alone. Many of the feasts and traditions that the people of Jesus’ time celebrated and practiced (which would almost certainly include Jesus himself participating) did not come from the “inspired” texts but from the defined Law that was being continually defined over the centuries post-Moses.

 

[mrflibbleisvryx]

Well, if it makes you feel better, Prodigal Son, I think that many Protestants have genuine misgivings that the Catholic Church is precisely the one Christ built, and do not reject her or her teachings out of pride or lack of love. With a few discreditable exceptions, I think they’d embrace her wholeheartedly if they were once persuaded of your premises about her nature. I must return to work, but pray for us if you get a chance–if you’re right, then God willing our minds will change; if you’re wrong … well prayer’s good for a man! God bless.

Being a Protestant (currently anyway), I rejected the Catholic Church and her teachings mainly out of ignorance and false beliefs about the church due to gross misrepresentations of the church and her doctrine as portrayed to me by my protestant pastors, preachers and teachers. Most protestants I know hold the same misconceptions about Catholics because, like myself until very recently, they don’t know any better. It’s just what they’ve always been taught.

I was attending a Southern Baptist church until very recently. The pastor there claims to be a former Roman Catholic, yet the things he taught about the church where totally unrecognizable in relation to what the Catholic Church actually is and believes. As a result of learning about what the church actually teaches (via my own self-imposed study) and an absolute revulsion towards the blatant slandering of a body which contains about a billion our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (some of which I am not entirely convinced is not done out of maliciousness), I’m seriously considering converting to Roman Catholicism.

 

[mrflibbleisvryx]

I would also like to say that I find it ironic that my protestant brethren are quick to throw out tradition and anything defined by one Catholic council or another when it’s a doctrine they don’t like; however they are even quicker to cite those same councils and traditions in defense of the historicity and/or validity of the doctrines we all agree on.

 

[ppasa316]

Actually no, he promised to send it to his holy catholic church as he promised he would stay with us until the end of time!

That same church today has not changed any part of his teaching but continud it and spread it and “taught the faith, in season and out”.

Can you provide scripture to back up your statement. Thanks

 

[ppasa316]

When I accepted Christ Jesus as my personal Saviour, I was wearing Levi’s, rolled up, like we did in the '60’s, U.S. Keds, and a shirt with a collar I have been to churches, where they frown on not dressing up, and ones, that are probaly too casual, but what I have learned is this: Moses, wasn’t dressed up, when he met God on the mountain, and my soul was sin-stained when I first met the Lord! Personally, people can dress however they prefer, but I believe that any place that believers, meet(where two or more are gatheredin My name), is sacred ground, because the Holy Spirit is there also:thumbsup: After 42 years of walking with the Lord, as a non catholic, my Christian life, continues to grow and mature.

Amen Brother

 

[CWBetts]

CWBetts: Look at the pot, calling the kettle black, when it comes to ignorance I mean, to actually interpret John 20:23, as saying that"we"(Christians) should confess our sins to a priest, instead of Our Holy Father(God), is ludicrous, to say the least! And I know that we are talking about Mary; but, when talking about prayer the “saints” are usually mentioned as well! Did you realize that the word saints, is mentioned 63 times in the NT? So, if Paul calls someone, or a group of people, “saints”, is this sacriligious? And I think it’s cool that Louie1983 is your cheerleader:thumbsup:By the way, saying that praying to or through Mary, is not unscriptural, can you cite any times, when our Saviour told us to pray through her? And, if I were a catholic, and chose not to confess to a priest, or pray through Mary, wore Levi’s to church, and didn’t “cross” myself, would I be excommunicated?

Letslook at what John 20:23 actually says. I will even use a faulty translation (KJV):

**21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. **

What happens here? Frist Jesus is talking to Peter an his Apostles (save Thomas, whao was absent). He breathe on them, filling them with the Holy Spirit. And He gives them the power to forgive sins! There really isn’t any other way to inerperet the passage, but I digress. This is about Mary. No, of course it is not sacreligious when Paul refers to the Body of Christ as “saints”.

Paul tells us may times to “pray for one another”. How is this irreconcialble with asking the saints in heaven to pray for us? And No, Jesus never once tells us to pray through Mary, BUT neither is it forbidden! The prove my point of the scriptural nature of Praying through Mary, I will dissect the Hail Mary for you,

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
This Luke 1:28, the very same greeting used by the angel.

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed it the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
This is the greeting used by Elizabeth in Luke 1:42.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the our of our death.
“Holy” means “set aside for a purpose”. Surely you can accept this is true of Mary! She was set aside for a very special purpose, that is, to bring the Savior into the world! I know that Protestants, as a general rule dislike the terminology “Mother of God”, but if you look again in the Elizabeth says something very interesting to Mary: “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Did you catch that? “the mother of my Lord” Apparrently, calling Mary “Mother of God” is in the Scriptures! Remember I am nt using a “Catholic Translation”, but the revered, almost worshipped (in some circles) King James Version! Again, Paul urges us to pray for one another, so I cannot possibly see how the cloning phrase can be a source of consternation.

If you were a Catholic, and you:

chose not to confess to a priest: Mortal sins can only be forgiven in the sacrament of reconcilliation, so your soul would be in danger. Also, if you are concious of any unconfessed mortal sins, and you present yourself to recieve the Holy Eucharist, you commit sacrilege (another mortal sin).

did not participate in Marian devotions: You would not be sinning, but you would be missing out on part of the richness of the Christian faith.

wore Levi’s to church: Levi is a name in the Bible, so you would be fine. Wranglers are strictly forbidden, however! The imprtant thing is that you attend Mass. Personally, I usually wear a jacket and tie, but that is just me. I think it shows a level of respect for our Lord. Many people choose not to. We should be neat, clean, and modest, but we don’t have a “dress code”.

cross yourself: I don’t see the issue that people have with this. As we cross ourselves, we say “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit” Yet Protestants seem to get their dander up over this.

Excommuniction is a very serious matter. In the past it was overused. It has a single purpose: to bring people back into line with the Church. In my opinion (and this is all the following is, so do not take it by any means as official) it should be reserved for those offenses that cuse serious division or scandal within the Church, and therfore very rare, but it should not be abandoned. The things you mentioned are not nearly serious enough for excommunication, and some aren’t even sinful.

BTW when I used the term “ignorant” I meant no insult. I was merely stating that you were uninformed on what the Church truly teaches. However when you used it with me, I got the feeling that you were really trying to call me stupid, which I take offense at. At any rate, I do not feel that I am ignorant of ether what the Church, or of what Fundamentalists teach. I am a Catholic now, and read constantly to educate myslef on the teachings of the Church, and I used to be a Fundamentalist, and actually attended a Bible College for a year, so I know what they teach as well.

 

[ppasa316]

Christ gave the men of His Church the authority to forgive and retain sins. How can they forgive or retain sins if you don’t confess them?

2Co 5:17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
2Co 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Christ never gave any man the ability to forgive or retain another persons sin. Where in the book of Acts do you find anyone with the ability to forgive sins. John 20:23 is similar to James. In the Greek it means pronouncing ones sins not forgiving. God is the only one who has the power to forgive.

 

[OnlyJesus]

Hi again! I’ve lost my place hopefully will catch up…but i read this statement,

Being a Protestant (currently anyway), I rejected the Catholic Church and her teachings **mainly out of ignorance and false beliefs about the church due to gross misrepresentations of the church and her doctrine as portrayed to me by my protestant pastors, preachers and teachers. **Most protestants I know hold the same misconceptions about Catholics because, like myself until very recently, they don’t know any better. It’s just what they’ve always been taught.

For 50 years, I’ve attended Baptist, ( Southern Conference and Independent ) Pentecostal, Methodist. Quaker, Calvary Chapel and non or inter-denominational services. Currently, I’m not a “member” of any earthly church building but I am a member of the Body of Christ.

It was after the Jim Jones massacre, I realized if these people had been following Christ, that wouldn’t have happened. I feel the same way about the CC, obviously and at various times historically, the hierarchy of the CC was not being led by Christ but by the lusts of the highest CC officials.

I live in the South. Just to show how different experiences are, in my 50 years in these various services, I’ve never heard a pastor, preacher etc, speak against Catholics or other denominations other than satanic worship, false prophets and cults…and those in a general sense from biblical teachings.

Jesus said: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Visiting this forum and reading what Catholics say has been startling.

 

[wisdomseeker]

First of all, I don’t think there is a Christian worth his/her weight, who would deny the HUGE importance of Mary in the plan of salvation! But I want Jesus at my death, not Mary! And there’s no need to pray through her or the saints, when we have the Advocate, that Jesus Himself promised us; just as we don’t have to confess our sins to a priest! And if Mary was completely sinless, why would she say," I rejoice in my God and my Saviour(Luke1:47)?

are you imply that because a person is without sin, the person does not need God? you put yourself above the Church and decide what should be and what should not be. are sure you want to be the one to decide what is meant in the SS?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ never gave any man the ability to forgive or retain another persons sin. Where in the book of Acts do you find anyone with the ability to forgive sins. John 20:23 is similar to James. In the Greek it means pronouncing ones sins not forgiving. God is the only one who has the power to forgive.

Hello ppasa316,

Christ gave the Apostles, whom He had chosen and ordained, the power to forgive or retain the sins of men. Below please find the DRB, KJV and the Greek translations.

Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
Joh 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Joh 20:21 ειπενG2036 [G5627] SAID ουνG3767 THEREFORE αυτοιςG846 οG3588 TO THEM ιησουςG2424 JESUS παλινG3825 AGAIN, ειρηνηG1515 PEACE υμινG5213 TO YOU : καθωςG2531 AS απεσταλκενG649 [G5758] HAS SENT FORTH μεG3165 ME οG3588 THE πατηρG3962 FATHER, καγωG2504 I ALSO πεμπωG3992 [G5719] SEND υμαςG5209 YOU.
Joh 20:22 καιG2532 AND τουτοG5124 THIS ειπωνG2036 [G5631] HAVING SAID ενεφυσησενG1720 [G5656] HE BREATHED INTO “THEM”, καιG2532 AND λεγειG3004 [G5719] SAYS αυτοιςG846 TO THEM, λαβετεG2983 [G5628] RECEIVE “THE” πνευμαG4151 SPIRIT αγιονG40 HOLY :
Joh 20:23 ανG302 τινωνG5100 OF WHOMSOEVER αφητεG863 [G5632] YE MAY REMIT ταςG3588 THE αμαρτιαςG266 SINS, αφιενταιG863 [G5743] THEY ARE REMITTED αυτοιςG846 ανG302 TO THEM; τινωνG5100 OF WHOMSOEVER κρατητεG2902 [G5725] YE MAY RETAIN, κεκρατηνταιG2902 [G5769] THEY HAVE BEEN RETAINED.

 

[CWBetts]

Hi again! I’ve lost my place hopefully will catch up…but i read this statement,

For 50 years, I’ve attended Baptist, ( Southern Conference and Independent ) Pentecostal, Methodist. Quaker, Calvary Chapel and non or inter-denominational services. Currently, I’m not a “member” of any earthly church building but I am a member of the Body of Christ.

It was after the Jim Jones massacre, I realized if these people had been following Christ, that wouldn’t have happened. I feel the same way about the CC, obviously and at various times historically, the hierarchy of the CC was not being led by Christ but by the lusts of the highest CC officials.

I live in the South. Just to show how different experiences are, in my 50 years in these various services, I’ve never heard a pastor, preacher etc, speak against Catholics or other denominations other than satanic worship, false prophets and cults…and those in a general sense from biblical teachings.

Jesus said: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Visiting this forum and reading what Catholics say has been startling.

Protestans most desidedly DO speak out specifically aginst the Catholic Church. Have you not heard of Alexander Hislop, Lorraine Boettner, or Jack Chick? Jack Hyles and his ilk frequently referred to Holy Mother Church as the “Whore of Babylon” ! Yes, anto-Catholic bigotry is alive and well! And your view of some “invisible” church is, IMHO just plain silly! If the true Church is invisible, then where did Paul send his letters?

 

[mrflibbleisvryx]

Hi again! I’ve lost my place hopefully will catch up…but i read this statement,

For 50 years, I’ve attended Baptist, ( Southern Conference and Independent ) Pentecostal, Methodist. Quaker, Calvary Chapel and non or inter-denominational services. Currently, I’m not a “member” of any earthly church building but I am a member of the Body of Christ.

It was after the Jim Jones massacre, I realized if these people had been following Christ, that wouldn’t have happened. I feel the same way about the CC, obviously and at various times historically, the hierarchy of the CC was not being led by Christ but by the lusts of the highest CC officials.

I live in the South. Just to show how different experiences are, in my 50 years in these various services, I’ve never heard a pastor, preacher etc, speak against Catholics or other denominations other than satanic worship, false prophets and cults…and those in a general sense from biblical teachings.

Jesus said: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Visiting this forum and reading what Catholics say has been startling.

Good morning!

I’m very aware of the differences in the denominations, especially here in the South. I’m speaking from my own experience in church as well as that of my family and friends. My family (dad’s side which is extremely large) is very much devoted to the Church of Christ denomination with a few having “strayed” to the Church of God. I have one cousin who converted to Catholicism and they’ve pretty much written her off. When questioned as to why, I got a lot of “well, my preacher/pastor says…” about the Catholic church being every sort of awful blasphemous, idolatrous, heathens you’d ever heard of. Same reaction from my mom’s side, which are all mainly Baptist with some Presbyterians thrown in the mix. My husband’s family, who aren’t really even believers, all think the same things about Catholics. I’m sure they got their impressions from TV, books and movies.

So, I’ve started studying Catholic theology myself and I can tell you unequivocally the caricatures you hear from most protestant about Catholics-whatever the source- is gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding of their faith.

 

[mrflibbleisvryx]

Protestans most desidedly DO speak out specifically aginst the Catholic Church. Have you not heard of Alexander Hislop, Lorraine Boettner, or Jack Chick? Jack Hyles and his ilk frequently referred to Holy Mother Church as the “Whore of Babylon” ! Yes, anto-Catholic bigotry is alive and well! And your view of some “invisible” church is, IMHO just plain silly! If the true Church is invisible, then where did Paul send his letters?

Yeah, I’ve heard bits and pieces from these same people over the years in Churches of Christ, Churches of God, Southern Baptist churches, and Presbyterian churches.