Protestants, Re: Baptism, Marriage, Forgivness of Sins 2 out of 3 is not good enough

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onetimeposter said:
Why would you not confess your sins directly to God, if according to John, if you confess your sins, he is righteous and just and will forgive us from every wrong doing?
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Originally Posted by ckempston
Why would you not confess your sins to a brother if, according to James, you may be healed by confessing?
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Why would we not want to do both, since they both have a place and role??

Jon
 
JonNC said:
You raise two different issues here.
  1. Holy Orders, and the validity of clergy outside of the Catholic Church. I, personally, have no interest in discussing this issue, as neither of us can convince the other. ISTM, also, that it will be resolved when unity comes.
  2. The importance of confession/absolution.
    Lutherans practice both public and private confession to a pastor/confessor who, by the authority of Christ, absolves (or not) our confessed sins.
I’ll let you decide for yourself whether or not Lutherans, in this regard, are 3 for 3.

Oh, and regarding your point 1, as you know, that while preferable, a priest/pastor is not necessary for Baptism.

Jon
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Let’s not start this stuff… it misleads too many people. The Lutheran faith community has absolutly NO authority that can be traced to Christ to absolve sins in His name… or any name.

God loves the Lutherans for sure… but just saying they have a valid ordination and just saying they have a Eucharist = Real Presence is not true.

You can say it is till the cows come home… but no clergy of the Lutheran denominations has ordination from and through the succession of the Apostles. And Jesus only gave those powers to the Church He founded… and it wasn’t the Lutherns.

.
 
TriuneUnity said:
1 John 1:9 doesn’t specify confession to a priest or minister. The Psalms are also clear examples of sins being confessed solely to God. I agree with you, however, that public confession is a major part of Christian ministry and worship.

Technically, Scripture more often in the New Testament, proclaims that if you believe in Christ your sins are forgiven.
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So your sins will be forgiven if you believe… wouldn’t that be total, not partial or selective belief?

If it were total belief, you would want to be Catholic and avail yourself of all the sacraments.
 
onetimeposter said:
An ordained Catholic Priest is not necessary for the sacraments of marriage or Baptism. ( deacons can perform both)

Do some homework about your faith, as you were under the mis-guided belief that Catholic Priests were essential for marriage and Baptism.

Ordained Priests are necessary for consecration and the forgiveness of sins…that is all.
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The clergy do not “marry” the bride and groom. They marry each other. The witnesses meet the State requirement to register the marriage.

The clergy (ordained priest or deacon) are the witnesses for the Church. To sanctify the marriage as the sacrament that it is, requires this witness for the Church.

Catholic Priests are essential not because the actions cannot be performed without them… they are essential for the sacramental graces from God.

.
 
onetimeposter said:
Why would you not confess your sins directly to God, if according to John, if you confess your sins, he is righteous and just and will forgive us from every wrong doing?
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That’s a false dilemma. I wasn’t advocating one over the other, or one in place of, but merely pointing out that both “methods,” for lack of a better term, have their place.
 
MrS said:
So your sins will be forgiven if you believe… wouldn’t that be total, not partial or selective belief?

If it were total belief, you would want to be Catholic and avail yourself of all the sacraments.
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This is nothing but rhetoric and it adds nothing to the discussion.
 
ckempston said:
This is nothing but rhetoric and it adds nothing to the discussion.
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If the understanding of “believe” is as seriously different between Catholics and non-Catholics (as I think it is) then it is very relevant.

Our belief in the institution of the seven Sacraments by Christ makes Baptism, Marriage, and Reconciliation rise to a whole different level…

… depending on one’s understanding of believe.

.
 
MrS said:
Let’s not start this stuff… it misleads too many people. The Lutheran faith community has absolutly NO authority that can be traced to Christ to absolve sins in His name… or any name.

God loves the Lutherans for sure… but just saying they have a valid ordination and just saying they have a Eucharist = Real Presence is not true.

You can say it is till the cows come home… but no clergy of the Lutheran denominations has ordination from and through the succession of the Apostles. And Jesus only gave those powers to the Church He founded… and it wasn’t the Lutherns.

.
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MrS, you are arguing my first point, which was,
Originally Posted by JonNC
You raise two different issues here.
  1. Holy Orders, and the validity of clergy outside of the Catholic Church. I, personally, have no interest in discussing this issue, as neither of us can convince the other. ISTM, also, that it will be resolved when unity comes.
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And, as I stated, I’ll not discuss Orders. You may, of course, do so till the cows come home, if you prefer.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
MrS, you are arguing my first point, which was,

And, as I stated, I’ll not discuss Orders. You may, of course, do so till the cows come home, if you prefer.

Jon
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Sorry … objection overruled… you opened the door by saying:
  1. The importance of confession/absolution.
    Lutherans practice both public and private confession to a pastor/confessor who, by the authority of Christ, absolves (or not) our confessed sins.
For all those who come to this Catholic Site, and who see what you posted… well… they may be misled on an important issue if even the Catholics here let it slide.

We are discussing the importance of these Sacraments. The level of importance to Catholics includes what we have… valid ordination, and powers given to the Catholic Church alone… and never recinded nor “shared”.
 
This about sums it up for me:

**John 20:22-23
**

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

He gives the Apostles and their successors (by the laying on of hands) the POWER of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in His Name…Name the other time when God breathes on people…😃
 
ckempston said:
So, how do you know they are not the true church and Catholics aren’t the “separated” ones?
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uuhhh… because we still recognize the Chair of Peter ? and the one who occupies it as being the valid successor to all the 264 popes who came before and are given the authority to lead the Church as the Vicar of Christ (like the Chief Steward with the keys) until the King returns.

The second coming has not happened. Christ has not returned in Glory… yet. The Chief Steward is still in charge!

And he is in charge of all Christians. Both the Catholics and all other baptized individuals who have become members of the Body of Christ.
 
jay29 said:
This about sums it up for me:

**John 20:22-23 **

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

He gives the Apostles and their successors (by the laying on of hands) the POWER of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in His Name…Name the other time when God breathes on people…😃
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:amen::amen:
 
MrS said:
:amen::amen:
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Notice how they always forget about **John 20:22-23 **and the giving of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins? I don’t forget about that at all. This is KEY. 👍

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

** The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:**
  • reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
  • reconciliation with the Church;
  • remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
  • remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;
  • peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation;
  • an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle.
 
MrS said:
uuhhh… because we still recognize the Chair of Peter ? and the one who occupies it as being the valid successor to all the 264 popes who came before and are given the authority to lead the Church as the Vicar of Christ (like the Chief Steward with the keys) until the King returns.
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This is question begging.
The second coming has not happened. Christ has not returned in Glory… yet. The Chief Steward is still in charge!

And he is in charge of all Christians. Both the Catholics and all other baptized individuals who have become members of the Body of Christ.
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I would actually agree with you if not for all the…geez, I can’t think of a nice way to say this, so I’ll just say…stuff that has come out of Rome. If Popes or current Catholic teaching have taught error or been in direct contradiction to the Bible, then Papal Infallability cannot be true, and the whole thing falls apart. I say they have taught, and do teach, errors. We can make that a separate thread or I can provide an example in a PM, but IF the church has ever, even once, taught error, like I said, the whole thing falls apart.
 
ckempston said:
This is question begging.

I would actually agree with you if not for all the…geez, I can’t think of a nice way to say this, so I’ll just say…stuff that has come out of Rome. If Popes or current Catholic teaching have taught error or been in direct contradiction to the Bible, then Papal Infallability cannot be true, and the whole thing falls apart. I say they have taught, and do teach, errors. We can make that a separate thread or I can provide an example in a PM, but IF the church has ever, even once, taught error, like I said, the whole thing falls apart.
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Where does Christ say that the bible is the sole Authority of the Faith?

Why did Christ give Peter ALONE the Keys to heaven?

Why did Christ make Peter ALONE the Shepard of His Church?
 
jay29 said:
Notice how they always forget about **John 20:22-23 **and the giving of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins? I don’t forget about that at all. This is KEY. 👍
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And Catholics seem to ignore the Lord’s Prayer in which Jesus instructs us to ask forgiveness directly of God. And where Jesus says we can be forgiven if we forgive others. And where James says to confess to one another for healing.

It seems to me that Peter may very well have used “the Keys” in Acts 2:38 to unlock, once and for all, the gates to the Kingdom.
 
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