Protestants, Re: Baptism, Marriage, Forgivness of Sins 2 out of 3 is not good enough

[ufamtobie]

1. When we were baptized there was a priest/minister there baptizing us. This is how Jesus wanted it to be… For Jesus sent John the Baptist and his successors/priests to baptize us.
2. When a couple gets married, there is a priest/minister that marries the couple. This is how Jesus wants it to be… for Jesus Has priests/ministers to marry them.

Both Catholics and Protestants, have no problem with #1 & #2 above, but as for #3

1. When we have sinned there is also a Priests/Bishops/Cardinal/ the Pope himself the successors of the Apostles, who we ALL can go to for the forgiveness of our sins. This is how Jesus Christ wanted it to be…For Jesus Christ said to the Apostles in: (John 20: 21,22) He spoke to them again and said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. IF YOU FORGIVE ANYONE’S SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN. IF YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE THEM THEY ARE UNFORGIVEN."

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ to see a Priest/Minister for baptism.

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ, to see a Priest/Minister for those who are geting married.

Protestants, However you do not agree with Jesus Christ to see the Successors of the Apostles for your forgiveness of your sins.

2 out of 3 is not good enough! You can not pick and choose for the benefit of your protestant religeon only to go against the Catholic Church.

Remember Jesus said above: “AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, SO I SEND YOU.” This statement Of Jesus Christ, here, is the begining of SUCCESSION. For Our Lord, knew that his Apostles would die one day and the successors of the Apostles would continue to our generation “The Catholic Church.” for the FORGIVNESS OR UNFORGIVENSS of our sins.

Wow Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles and their Successors that much AUTHORITY, That means that the Catholic Church Has the AUTHORITY to BIND or LOOSE for the Catholic Church Has the KEYS to the KINGDOM of Jesus Christ. AMEN

Jesus, Mary, Guide you on your journey home.

Ufamtobie

 

[ChristianKnight]

and? I pray to god for my sins to be forgiven, if thats not good enough for you, then

 

[ChristianRoots]

and? I pray to god for my sins to be forgiven, if thats not good enough for you, then

Do you just pray to God to consecrate your marriage ceremony too, or do you have a minister present to do the consecrating?

Why not just ask God yourself to consecrate your marriage and do away with your minister (just for the marriage ceremony)? Or is the presence of the minister at the wedding ceremony a cherished tradition of yours?

The OP is right, you can’t just pick and choose when a priest/minister is needed and when one isn’t.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** For Jesus sent John the Baptist and his successors/priests to baptize us**

**Where did you get that Jesus sent John the Baptist and that John the Baptist had successors to baptize?

It’s neither in the Bible nor the teaching of the Church.**

 

[JonNC]

1. When we were baptized there was a priest/minister there baptizing us. This is how Jesus wanted it to be… For Jesus sent John the Baptist and his successors/priests to baptize us.
2. When a couple gets married, there is a priest/minister that marries the couple. This is how Jesus wants it to be… for Jesus Has priests/ministers to marry them.

Both Catholics and Protestants, have no problem with #1 & #2 above, but as for #3

1. When we have sinned there is also a Priests/Bishops/Cardinal/ the Pope himself the successors of the Apostles, who we ALL can go to for the forgiveness of our sins. This is how Jesus Christ wanted it to be…For Jesus Christ said to the Apostles in: (John 20: 21,22) He spoke to them again and said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. IF YOU FORGIVE ANYONE’S SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN. IF YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE THEM THEY ARE UNFORGIVEN."

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ to see a Priest/Minister for baptism.

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ, to see a Priest/Minister for those who are geting married.

Protestants, However you do not agree with Jesus Christ to see the Successors of the Apostles for your forgiveness of your sins.

2 out of 3 is not good enough! You can not pick and choose for the benefit of your protestant religeon only to go against the Catholic Church.

Remember Jesus said above: “AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, SO I SEND YOU.” This statement Of Jesus Christ, here, is the begining of SUCCESSION. For Our Lord, knew that his Apostles would die one day and the successors of the Apostles would continue to our generation “The Catholic Church.” for the FORGIVNESS OR UNFORGIVENSS of our sins.

Wow Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles and their Successors that much AUTHORITY, That means that the Catholic Church Has the AUTHORITY to BIND or LOOSE for the Catholic Church Has the KEYS to the KINGDOM of Jesus Christ. AMEN

Jesus, Mary, Guide you on your journey home.

Ufamtobie

You raise two different issues here.

1. Holy Orders, and the validity of clergy outside of the Catholic Church. I, personally, have no interest in discussing this issue, as neither of us can convince the other. ISTM, also, that it will be resolved when unity comes.
2. The importance of confession/absolution.
   Lutherans practice both public and private confession to a pastor/confessor who, by the authority of Christ, absolves (or not) our confessed sins.

I’ll let you decide for yourself whether or not Lutherans, in this regard, are 3 for 3.

Oh, and regarding your point 1, as you know, that while preferable, a priest/pastor is not necessary for Baptism.

Jon

 

[ckempston]

1. When we were baptized there was a priest/minister there baptizing us. This is how Jesus wanted it to be… For Jesus sent John the Baptist and his successors/priests to baptize us.
2. When a couple gets married, there is a priest/minister that marries the couple. This is how Jesus wants it to be… for Jesus Has priests/ministers to marry them.

Both Catholics and Protestants, have no problem with #1 & #2 above, but as for #3

1. When we have sinned there is also a Priests/Bishops/Cardinal/ the Pope himself the successors of the Apostles, who we ALL can go to for the forgiveness of our sins. This is how Jesus Christ wanted it to be…For Jesus Christ said to the Apostles in: (John 20: 21,22) He spoke to them again and said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. IF YOU FORGIVE ANYONE’S SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN. IF YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE THEM THEY ARE UNFORGIVEN."

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ to see a Priest/Minister for baptism.

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ, to see a Priest/Minister for those who are geting married.

Protestants, However you do not agree with Jesus Christ to see the Successors of the Apostles for your forgiveness of your sins.

2 out of 3 is not good enough! You can not pick and choose for the benefit of your protestant religeon only to go against the Catholic Church.

Remember Jesus said above: “AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, SO I SEND YOU.” This statement Of Jesus Christ, here, is the begining of SUCCESSION. For Our Lord, knew that his Apostles would die one day and the successors of the Apostles would continue to our generation “The Catholic Church.” for the FORGIVNESS OR UNFORGIVENSS of our sins.

Wow Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles and their Successors that much AUTHORITY, That means that the Catholic Church Has the AUTHORITY to BIND or LOOSE for the Catholic Church Has the KEYS to the KINGDOM of Jesus Christ. AMEN

Jesus, Mary, Guide you on your journey home.

Ufamtobie

Just one small objection to your point, and there may be a simple answer. Paul and Barnabas went around planting churches, and sometimes appointed elders (Presbyters/Priests), but not always, as evidenced by the fact that Paul instructed Titus to go appoint elders/presbyters in existing churches. Are we to believe that those churches who had no priests had no forgiveness?

 

[ckempston]

and? I pray to god for my sins to be forgiven, if thats not good enough for you, then

I can’t seem to find a single instance of a person being instructed by the Apostles to ask forgiveness from God directly without outward confession to someone else (whether another Christian or a Priest). Can you back up your claim with scripture?

 

[TriuneUnity]

I can’t seem to find a single instance of a person being instructed by the Apostles to ask forgiveness from God directly without outward confession to someone else (whether another Christian or a Priest). Can you back up your claim with scripture?

1 John 1:9 doesn’t specify confession to a priest or minister. The Psalms are also clear examples of sins being confessed solely to God. I agree with you, however, that public confession is a major part of Christian ministry and worship.

Technically, Scripture more often in the New Testament, proclaims that if you believe in Christ your sins are forgiven.

 

[ckempston]

1 John 1:9 doesn’t specify confession to a priest or minister. The Psalms are also clear examples of sins being confessed solely to God. I agree with you, however, that public confession is a major part of Christian ministry and worship.

Technically, Scripture more often in the New Testament, proclaims that if you believe in Christ your sins are forgiven.

Huh, guess I have to retract that statement. It’s pretty clear. Jesus also said if we forgive others, we will be forgiven. It occurs to me that the Lord’s Prayer would be superfluous if, in praying for forgiveness, you don’t actually receive it.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Mark 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

Others:

Acts 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

James’ instruction was to ordinary Christians, not just elders.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You’re right, no mention of a priest or elder.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Huh, guess I have to retract that statement. It’s pretty clear. Jesus also said if we forgive others, we will be forgiven. It occurs to me that the Lord’s Prayer would be superfluous if, in praying for forgiveness, you don’t actually receive it.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Mark 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

Others:

Acts 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

James’ instruction was to ordinary Christians, not just elders.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You’re right, no mention of a priest or elder.

I think there’s a delicate balance that has to be met in this area. The problem with Roman theology on the topic of confession and absolution is two-fold; firstly, that it mandates private confession for forgiveness of mortal sins; that it requires some prescribed form of penance, and a lot of the problem with that has to do with its erroneous theology of temporal satisfaction/purgatory, and that all known sins to enumerated to the priest.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, it takes the proclamation of forgiveness and turns it from an external act to an internal act. Whereby, instead of the priest proclaiming the forgiveness of sins by Christ’s act on the cross for sinners, and the sinner receiving and rejoicing in this good news, the sinner is thrown back into himself and must rely on his own subjective spiritual state and agony of conscience to try and “do” something to be forgiven.

 

[bpbasilphx]

1 John 1:9 doesn’t specify confession to a priest or minister.

**James 5:14-15 strongly suggests oral confession.

Which verse has greater juju?**

 

[ckempston]

1 John 1:9 doesn’t specify confession to a priest or minister.

**James 5:14-15 strongly suggests oral confession.

Which verse has greater juju?**

I don’t think they are in conflict. I think confession is always “outward,” though not everyone agrees. I think the matter of debate is who “hears” the confession. The Greek word itself would suggest that it is “oral”: exomologeo literally means outwardly acknowledge.

 

[NDfan]

I can’t seem to find a single instance of a person being instructed by the Apostles to ask forgiveness from God directly without outward confession to someone else (whether another Christian or a Priest). Can you back up your claim with scripture?

When the Apostles asked Jesus to teach them to pray he taught them the Our Father. Give us this day our daily bread/food and forgive our trespasses/sins.

Jesus Himself teaches praying directly to GOD for forgiveness.

 

[ckempston]

When the Apostles asked Jesus to teach them to pray he taught them the Our Father. Give us this day our daily bread/food and forgive our trespasses/sins.

Jesus Himself teaches praying directly to GOD for forgiveness.

Yes, I agree. The Lord’s Prayer didn’t pop into my head as an obvious example for some reason when I wrote that post.

 

[NDfan]

Yes, I agree. The Lord’s Prayer didn’t pop into my head as an obvious example for some reason when I wrote that post.

Why then didn’t Jesus give the command to directly confess to someone from the church??

 

[onetimeposter]

Where is it written that ’ thou shalt confess to an ordained Priest in order to receive the forgiveness of your sins…do not confess directly to God, for that has no effect.’

Nowhere.

Even if that quote means what it says…no where are there instructions that the only way to receive the forgiveness of God, is by confessing to an ordained Catholic priest.

 

[onetimeposter]

Protestants, you agree with Jesus Christ to see a Priest/Minister for baptism.

Why then does the Catholic Church teach that in an emergency, anyone can perform a baptism, so long as the proper formula ( found in the Bible ) is used.

Why do Deacons perform Baptism’s…they’re not ordained Priests?

**An ordained Catholic Priest is not necessary for the sacraments of marriage or Baptism. ( deacons can perform both)
**

The only other argument that you presented is that Protestants don’t confess to a man, but directly to God. Well, Protestants don’t believe they need a man to mediate their forgiveness from God.

Do some homework about your faith, as you were under the mis-guided belief that Catholic Priests were essential for marriage and Baptism.

Ordained Priests are necessary for consecration and the forgiveness of sins…that is all.

 

[ckempston]

Why then didn’t Jesus give the command to directly confess to someone from the church??

That James said it is good enough for me. I’m not saying God will not forgive you if you pray to him and ask for forgiveness. I suppose it comes down to what your motive is. Why would you not confess your sins to a brother if, according to James, you may be healed by confessing?

 

[onetimeposter]

Why would you not confess your sins to a brother if, according to James, you may be healed by confessing?

Why would you not confess your sins directly to God, if according to John, if you confess your sins, he is righteous and just and will forgive us from every wrong doing?

 

[onetimeposter]

I think there’s a delicate balance that has to be met in this area. The problem with Roman theology on the topic of confession and absolution is two-fold; firstly, that it mandates private confession for forgiveness of mortal sins; that it requires some prescribed form of penance, and a lot of the problem with that has to do with its erroneous theology of temporal satisfaction/purgatory, and that all known sins to enumerated to the priest.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, it takes the proclamation of forgiveness and turns it from an external act to an internal act. Whereby, instead of the priest proclaiming the forgiveness of sins by Christ’s act on the cross for sinners, and the sinner receiving and rejoicing in this good news, the sinner is thrown back into himself and must rely on his own subjective spiritual state and agony of conscience to try and “do” something to be forgiven.

Well said.