Very good point…this is where the trail leads when one begins to walk it. Selective acceptance of the Church’s authority based on what one (on their own) decides to “like” or “dislike” is prone to all kinds of heresy. Would the Holy Spirit lead the Church in 30K+ denominational directions? Not likely. We can save the “real presence” discussion for another day though…this is enough.
The RP discussion is going on elsewhere at the moment anyway. I chose those three features of Christian theology & practice because they’re some of the most common things that are criticized by Protestants.
If you interpret what I’ve said as arrogant then it is also substantial historical evidence that you must also call arrogant. Luther did exactly what I said he did…he would tell you the same. Certain parts that he didn’t like he took out…sorry.
Actually there were divisions in the church just years after Jesus’ time on earth.
That’s what Paul was dealing with especially in 1 Corinthians.
That’s not quite true. When Clement of Rome refers to “Scripture,” he means the Old Testament. At least some of the Gospels had been written by the time he was alive (end of the 1st century), but it’s not really until Irenaeus (c. AD 160) that we see anyone considering the Gospels to be Scripture on a level with the OT.
Actually Jon, “de-former” is actually a better term though “re-former” is typically what is used. To reform something gives a sense of improvement…making things “as they once were.” This is not what happened. In Luther’s defense I can say that there were clearly abuses going on during his time in THE Church…I am the first to admit that…however, these abuses were on a localized level and his impassioned approach to changing things did not take into consideration the greater good the of the Church as a whole. In my opinion Luther did far more harm than good…hence…de-former seems to fit.
Yes there were divisions among those who called themselves Christians…even some of those different Christians claimed Paul as the source of their teachings…Elaine Pagels makes a case in her book “The Gnostic Paul”…and we know Marcion’s version of Christianity was in full swing in Asia Minor by the time the four gospels we know were completed…Marcion had an abreviated version of “Luke” which he claimed was authentic…however they were not the only gospels. I forget which “church father” said there could only be four legitimate gospels because there were 'four winds" and “four directions”…so he used “numerology” to fix the number.
But the divisions, Paul wrote about, were corrected and were held in common with the Jerusalem Church…he was also writing more about divisions within specific congregations and the thought was far from his mind I’m sure that it was “okay” to break with the authority of the other Apostles…which he undoubtedly was considered as time went on…an Apostle that is.
It was bad. You can follow it if you want. I did at one time but, frankly, it stinks and I"m not ashamed to say so. What was going on in the Catholic Chruch also stunk. You are clearly offended and I’m sorry but I think it would be wrong for me to support a view that I have come to recognize as erroneous…that is the Protestant view of the Church. I didn’t mean to cause “harm” (which I didn’t say) and my words were chosen carefully.
That would have been Irenaeus. And of course, the numerological symbolism seems silly to us, but it’s pretty obviously ex post facto. He could just as easily have said that just are there are three Persons in the Trinity, there are three canonical Gospels, or that because there are five digits on the hand, there are five canonical Gospels. The numerology is a justification for a decision that has already been made for other reasons.
I will only say in response to this that Elaine Pagels is not taken very seriously outside of the NYT Best Sellers list.
That’s one theory. I think it’s more likely that Paul is quoting the liturgy itself, as are the Gospels. It is certain that the Eucharist was being celebrated before either the Epistles or the Gospels were written, and it is likely that both the Gospels and Paul are quoting it (the admonitory nature of 1 Cor certainly would suggest that Paul is quoting the canon as a reminder to the wayward Corinthians).
Well, there are people who disagree with anything and everything up to the present time. That’s hardly a reason to throw up your hands and say “It’s all relative, I guess!”
Of course we don’t know the date they were hidden. But they were already 200 years old by the time Athanasius became the bishop of Alexandria, and in any case I’m not certain that Chenoboskion was under Alexandria’s jurisdiction; it’s all the way down in Upper Egypt, and of course Alexandria is a port in Lower (i.e. Northern) Egypt.
Not by name no, except for Papias who mentions Matthew and Mark. By way of Eusebius.
True…but Athanasius WAS a very influential “proto-orthodox/catholic” figure and by the time Athanasius was making decrees…the proto-orthodox/catholic faction of Christianity was exericising much influence and power.
Thanks for addressing that. I can see already that the arrogance here flows like milk and honey especially on subjects like where did the Bible come from.You are correct. Of course, then they weren’t Cathol-ic either.
Actually, it is a silly point. The NT canon was compiled by the undivided Church Catholic.
For us in the west who are non-catholic, we owe Rome a debt of gratitude for preserving the canon. Even Luther said as much.
Jon
Well, you are on a Catholic forum! It shouldn’t be too surprising that the majority of opinions expressed on it are Catholic or Catholic-friendly, and that a certain note of triumphalism might be detected.
But arrogance is not of being a Christian. There’s simply no excuse for it on a Protestant thread or here.
Why is speaking truth equivalent to “arrogance?” It is better, isn’t it, to encounter challenging perspectives? You might not agree but don’t call it “arrogant” simply because it maintains a certain line of reason.
This all has to do with your opinion and how you perceive the subject. Others have differing beliefs regarding what is really true and what the Scriptures really say.
