Protestants reforming ?

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JPeter, thanks very much for posting that link. I think that when Lutherans explore their history and dig deeper, past the Catechisms and encounter the Book of Concord, we are left in the same place as Fr. Fenton - stay or go? Should we even be here?

Very thought provoking read.
 
JPeter, thanks very much for posting that link. I think that when Lutherans explore their history and dig deeper, past the Catechisms and encounter the Book of Concord, we are left in the same place as Fr. Fenton - stay or go? Should we even be here?

Very thought provoking read.
Any Lutheran comment on this portion:

Over the centuries, fueled no doubt by polemics, persecutions and historical events,
what has occurred is a sectarian, if not heretical, shift as remarkable as it is regrettable. This
shift, I believe, is traced to and thereby born from the inversion of the catholic principle. The
result is that we now have been taught to read, hold to, and defend the confessions as the
definition not of the holy catholic faith, but the Lutheran faith. And we have been
overwhelmed with the notion that the confessions are not* a *but the true and correct
exhibition of the faith which, in turn, allows us to ignore most especially the ecumenical
councils whose creeds and canons are the very historical and theological foundation of our
confessions. Subsequently, we are helpless to think, speak, identify, and describe ourselves
not as the catholic church of the west, but as nothing other than one church among many
or, worse yet, as remnants of the church which will never be incarnationally seen with our
eyes, handled with our hands, or in any other way concretely manifest. In short, the
Lutherans stopped being Lutheran the day they believed themselves to be Lutheran rather
than the authentic continuation of the western catholic church. (Or, more simply, our
spiritual fathers eased themselves away from the holy catholic church when they described
themselves as “Lutheran.”) For that we could blame the Jesuits who shrewdly made stick
the moniker that named our increasingly sectarian forefathers after (so they said) the prime
heretic. But, in point of fact, we only have ourselves to thank for reducing our confessional
heritage to one book, and for letting that book alone be the definition of the visibility of our
church.30 In doing so, we have given rise to the desire to form and break communion
fellowships at will; we have nurtured the false notion that Christ in His ecclesial presence is
completely unlike Christ in His sacramental and incarnation presence;31 we have rendered
the word “church” devoid of any concrete meaning outside of the local congregation; and
we have reduced the trans-parochial understanding of the church to a voluntary association
of like-confessing congregations.
29
 
JPeter;9659665:
Hmmmm…interesting read. Why do you think Fr. Fenton made a mistake in converting to Orthodoxy? Should he have converted? Or turned Latin instead?

Did he convert prior to writing this?

He writes:

That is why the Book of Concord exists, and why it insists on listing what is to be
believed, taught and confessed. For our confessional standard is not Holy Scriptures alone.Neither is it interpreting the Confessions according to the Scripture. Rather, as C. F. W.Walther reminds us, our confessional standard is reading, interpreting, and expounding
Holy Scripture according to the Confessions.7
In other words, he is saying is the B of C and the confessions are some sort of Magisterium…or pope…only on paper?
Additionally, opposing the confession’s catholic
principle by requiring that all doctrines and practices rely exclusively on “clear passages of
Scripture” makes it extremely difficult to defend (among other things) infant Baptism, the
true understanding of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the christological
nature of the office of the holy ministry. For it is well known that heterodox communions
which subscribe to the sola scriptura principle reject these catholic traditions.
The persistent, willful and deliberate rejection of traditional dogmas which do not
contradict Scripture has led to the anti-confessional notion of the Scriptures as the sole
source of doctrine and practice. This is one of the two major pillars for both the false
doctrine and its illegitimate false practice which not only plagues the LCMS, but has
infected all Lutheran churches today.*

Fr. Fenton explains some of this here: holyincarnation.org/pub/resignationstatement.pdf

My reason for not agreeing with his conversion to Orthodoxy is here:conciliaranglican.com/2012/08/14/ask-an-anglican-escaping-into-eastern-orthodoxy/
 
Any Lutheran comment on this portion:

Over the centuries, fueled no doubt by polemics, persecutions and historical events,
what has occurred is a sectarian, if not heretical, shift as remarkable as it is regrettable. This
shift, I believe, is traced to and thereby born from the inversion of the catholic principle. The
result is that we now have been taught to read, hold to, and defend the confessions as the
definition not of the holy catholic faith, but the Lutheran faith. And we have been
overwhelmed with the notion that the confessions are not* a *but the true and correct
exhibition of the faith which, in turn, allows us to ignore most especially the ecumenical
councils whose creeds and canons are the very historical and theological foundation of our
confessions. Subsequently, we are helpless to think, speak, identify, and describe ourselves
not as the catholic church of the west, but as nothing other than one church among many
or, worse yet, as remnants of the church which will never be incarnationally seen with our
eyes, handled with our hands, or in any other way concretely manifest. In short, the
Lutherans stopped being Lutheran the day they believed themselves to be Lutheran rather
than the authentic continuation of the western catholic church. (Or, more simply, our
spiritual fathers eased themselves away from the holy catholic church when they described
themselves as “Lutheran.”) For that we could blame the Jesuits who shrewdly made stick
the moniker that named our increasingly sectarian forefathers after (so they said) the prime
heretic. But, in point of fact, we only have ourselves to thank for reducing our confessional
heritage to one book, and for letting that book alone be the definition of the visibility of our
church.30 In doing so, we have given rise to the desire to form and break communion
fellowships at will; we have nurtured the false notion that Christ in His ecclesial presence is
completely unlike Christ in His sacramental and incarnation presence;31 we have rendered
the word “church” devoid of any concrete meaning outside of the local congregation; and
we have reduced the trans-parochial understanding of the church to a voluntary association
of like-confessing congregations.
29
See my profile first. 😉

While i’ve not expanded my thinking on this the way Father Fenton has, these are similar battles I fight in my own parish, particularly weekly communion.
In a recent discussion, a friend said that he sees nothing in scripture regarding frequency of communion. My response was that we read scripture in light of the confessions, which clearly state that we offer the mass at least weekly.

I also here regularly argue against the radical approach to sola scriptura, which seems to be that unless it is in the Bible…, while the Traditional Lutheran stance is as long as it doesn’t contradict the Bible and is the historic practice of the Church.

My biggest complaint regarding my own LCMS is its way-to-congregational polity, which I believe leads to poor practices at the parish level.

I also have an ongoing debate with some regarding the sempre virgo of the Blessed Virgin, which is clearly stated in the Formula of Concord.

Alas, considering where I live, I see no reasonable options.

Jon
 
JPeter, thanks very much for posting that link. I think that when Lutherans explore their history and dig deeper, past the Catechisms and encounter the Book of Concord, we are left in the same place as Fr. Fenton - stay or go? Should we even be here?

Very thought provoking read.
That is a big decision. To be honest if their was no Traditional Anglican Church where I live then it would be a toss up between Eastern Orthodoxy or LCMS/WELS Lutheran. Lutherans properly understand imputed righteousness whereas the Orthodox are not sure. Here is a good article that you might like. billspilgrimage.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-i-am-still-lutheran.html
 
My biggest complaint regarding my own LCMS is its way-to-congregational polity, which I believe leads to poor practices at the parish level.

Jon
Jon, I started to mention LCMS polity in my previous comment, but changing that from a congregational focus to something more episcopal would be a synod breaking change, IMO. As conservative as our congregation is, we struggle with some of the issues Fr. Fenton mentioned, such as the proper role of deacons. Myself, I’m vaguely uncomfortable with women ushers and girls as acolytes (why yes, I DID spend my first 21 years in a WELS congregation, why do you ask? 🙂 )
 
Jon, I started to mention LCMS polity in my previous comment, but changing that from a congregational focus to something more episcopal would be a synod breaking change, IMO. As conservative as our congregation is, we struggle with some of the issues Fr. Fenton mentioned, such as the proper role of deacons. Myself, I’m vaguely uncomfortable with women ushers and girls as acolytes (why yes, I DID spend my first 21 years in a WELS congregation, why do you ask? 🙂 )
Which WELS congregation? I have my kids in WELS schools.
 
After reflecting on Fr. Fenton’s call, my reaction for the idea endeavoring to find the perfect catholic church is simple: It is God who saves us.

I understand that Catholics would claim that God and Church are one, and I do find that appealing - but for myself, God has found me in a simple church, and I pray that I may respond to him.

I will of course, do my best to help my church follow the good advice of Fr. Fenton, but I see no need to abandon my church for one of more apparent certainty, when it truly only God who we can be certain of.

I would expect that the answer will be different for others, and I certainly admit that my response betrays my lack of understanding.
 
After reflecting on Fr. Fenton’s call, my reaction for the idea endeavoring to find the perfect catholic church is simple: It is God who saves us.

I understand that Catholics would claim that God and Church are one, and I do find that appealing - but for myself, God has found me in a simple church, and I pray that I may respond to him.

I will of course, do my best to help my church follow the good advice of Fr. Fenton, but I see no need to abandon my church for one of more apparent certainty, when it truly only God who we can be certain of.

I would expect that the answer will be different for others, and I certainly admit that my response betrays my lack of understanding.
👍
 
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