Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

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Finney’s opponants were from his side of the Tiber. And they had good reason to be concerned. These names might mean nothing to Catholic scholars, but they should to Reformed Protestants.They included:
John Humphrey Noyes (1811–1886)
George W. Gale (1789–1861)
Lyman Beecher (1775–1863)
Asahel Nettleton (1738–1844)
Arthur (1786–1865) and Lewis (1788–1873) Tappan
Asa Mahan (18??–1889)
Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 –1892)
David Martin Lloyd-Jones.
Ian Murray’s “Revival & Revivalism” (which used to be in my library) is a wonderful resource book looking the damage Finney’s teachings have done to American Protestantism. The ‘invitation’, ‘sinner’s prayer’ are innovations that is not even compatable with conservative Reformed principals, let alone Catholicism.
 
This is rich ! An Anglican telling a former Baptist what we believed … 😃 Why do we call ourselves BAPTISTS ? Would we be so stupid as to deny the ESSENTIAL necessity of Baptism in our Salvation … :nope:

The Eucharist is considered symbolic to them … but, Baptism is tantamount to a Sacrament. I will restate again my position ----- a ‘mainline’ Baptist [Southern Baptist], who answers an Altar call of pastor, or prays the Sinner’s Prayer [or equivalent thereof] and later declines Baptism would have their Salvation seriously questioned.
Really?
I spent 20 years in Baptist churches from fundamenalist to Reformed, I never heard that once. Most of the time, the preacher in the tank with the baptizee spends twenty minutes explaining how this ‘ordinance’ means nothing. It’s just obediance, that’s it.
You sound like the anti-Catholic insisting we worship Mary.
Better to know what Baptists believe before you make statements like this.
 
Yes, it is considered Mandatory ‘entrance’ into Church built on the Rock/Christ. It is also a key component in our Salvation … but, it is not called a Sacrament. They should call it a sacrament … they have no valid reason not to. It’s a vocabulary error on their part.
Oh my goodness…
Baptists do not believe this. They separate Baptism from salvation. Where are you getting your information?
 
Really?
I spent 20 years in Baptist churches from fundamenalist to Reformed, I never heard that once. Most of the time, the preacher in the tank with the baptizee spends twenty minutes explaining how this ‘ordinance’ means nothing. It’s just obediance, that’s it.
You sound like the anti-Catholic insisting we worship Mary.
Better to know what Baptists believe before you make statements like this.
After checking with several Baptist pastors in this area from Southern baptist to Independent Bible believing Baptists I have yet to find ONE that feels that Baptism is a sacrament but as you state an ordinance and part of entrance right into the church because of it being obedience to the commands of Christ. But in all fairness brb3 did say “Should call it a sacrament” so this says to me that brb3 is trying to justify Baptist thought with Catholic; the two do not mix here either…
 
Oh my goodness…
Baptists do not believe this. They separate Baptism from salvation. Where are you getting your information?
Maybe brb3 needs to check out this sight on Baptist beliefs where it speaks of baptism and communion to be ordinances.
baptistdistinctives.org/textonly17.html

Just a couple of lines from this site:
Baptists usually use the term “ordinances” rather than “sacraments” when referring to baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Even if “sacraments” is used, it is never intended to imply that either of these two is necessary for a person to be saved.

Baptists consistently declare that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are symbols and are not necessary for salvation. They are nonetheless a significant part of Baptist practice and worship.
 
Okay, let’s try this again.
Charles Grandison Finney (1792-1875) was a minister, a lecturer, a professor, and a traveling revivalist who held heretical views on the Atonment. He invented the practice which he called the Anxious Seat, and developed a theological system around it. Finney was straightforward about his purpose for this technique and wrote the following comment near the end of his life:

The Anxious Seat was considered to be a **psychological technique that manipulated people to make a premature profession of faith. It was considered to be an emotional conversion influenced by the preachers’ magnetism.
The system that Finney admitted had replaced biblical baptism, is the nucleus for the popular
plan of salvation **that was made normative in the twentieth century.
It was popularized by Dwight L. Moody. It was standardized by Billy Graham.
Nice to have you back Justaservant!
I think the problem that Protestants have with the sinner’s prayer and it’s faulty theology is that it has been around for so long it seems like it has been there all the time. It is rather like a point that Padrej made on another thread about the rapture theory coming about in the 1840’s and was the vision of a non Christian girl but picked up by the Plymouth Brethren. Soon the idea made its way into the first Scofield study Bible that it is now part of Protestant history. The Idea of the sinner’s prayer came out of that “revivalist” period and it has somehow stuck.
 
Really?
I spent 20 years in Baptist churches from fundamenalist to Reformed, I never heard that once. Most of the time, the preacher in the tank with the baptizee spends twenty minutes explaining how this ‘ordinance’ means nothing. It’s just obediance, that’s it.
You sound like the anti-Catholic insisting we worship Mary.
Better to know what Baptists believe before you make statements like this.
I am going to have to agree with Justaservant on this one as well. the Baptist ministers that I know do NOT view Baptism as a sacrament, but as you say an ordinance.
 
Maybe brb3 needs to check out this sight on Baptist beliefs where it speaks of baptism and communion to be ordinances.
baptistdistinctives.org/textonly17.html

Just a couple of lines from this site:
Baptists usually use the term “ordinances” rather than “sacraments” when referring to baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Even if “sacraments” is used, it is never intended to imply that either of these two is necessary for a person to be saved.

Baptists consistently declare that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are symbols and are not necessary for salvation. They are nonetheless a significant part of Baptist practice and worship.
Why would anyone want to be a Baptist, with all due respect, if it is believed that the Lord’s Supper IS NOT necessary for salvation; or Baptism for that matter? It is the founding bedrock of our sacramental system. Even the Protestant Anglicans view them as sacraments. Nice post Padre maybe the other Protestants and Catholics on this thread should read the link and see from the proverbial horse’s mouth what the Baptists believe. Then maybe we can have a better and more informed discussion on the sinner’s prayer.
 
Not true. This is very subtle, we have to closely look at the scriptures … all of them of Acts …to see what is being taught on subject of Baptism.

Acts19:2-12 And he[Paul] said to them [Apollos & 11 friends], “DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED?” And they said, “NO, WE HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD THAT THERE IS A HOLY SPIRIT.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, TELLING THE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE TO COME AFTER HIM, THAT IS JESUS.”
On hearing this they were BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them [Confirmed them], THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME ON THEM, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.

Commentary: Now earlier in verses 24-28 … we learn that Apollos was an eloquent and convincing apologist for Christ. He was a ZEALOT … preaching Jesus WAS THE CHRIST. But, here is the great MYSTERY. Paul knew something was amiss !!

When he learned Apollos, and his evangelist band of brothers [12 in number] were ignorant of GOD’S HOLY SPIRIT … he knew they needed COMPLETION of baptism. They were indeed ‘feverent in spirit’ … but not REBORN of God’s H.S. John & his disciples, were not using the Trinitarian words with their baptisms … before Christ came to John.

Thus, those receiving baptism of John, were not receiving H.S. thereof. Yes, Christ received Baptism of John, BUT IT WAS GOD THE FATHER WHO CONFERED THE HOLY SPIRIT ONTO JOHN, CONFIRMING JESUS AS THE TRUE CHRIST.

AFTER THIS POINT IN TIME, we know that John would of baptized those who came to him in NAME OF JESUS. Yet, even John had EARLIER said to those whom he was baptizing, that Christ would follow him … baptizing “WITH SPIRIT & FIRE”.

Those whom John baptized, before Christ arrived … were needful of receipt of H.S. Christ provided this to all of them, when those believers who followed John came and started following him. It would appear that most had later received H.S., many at occasion of Pentecost, [with a few exceptions, like Apollos and friends]. Nevertheless, even they too WERE FINALLY ENLIGHTENED … God using the account in Acts to instruct us in our FULLER UNDERSTANDING OF EVENTS, and need to receive Baptism into the Father AND SON [by words of man], … and via H.S. [by Christ alone].

As long as we are Baptized into the Father AND SON … Christ can then perform his REBIRTH of Holy Spirit upon us. Notice that Paul doesn’t actually rebaptize them saying “in the name of Father, the Son, and the H.S.” … as we do today. But, he knew they had not received the fuller Christian Baptism he was performing on all Converts. Apollos and friends ‘HAD CONFESSED’ to him they were ignorant of the H.S. He knew, JUST AS JOHN HAD TAUGHT HIS FOLLOWERS, that they had yet to receive Baptism INTO JESUS … who could/would then further Baptize the believers with the H.S. … as ONLY CHRIST CAN DO !!! Paul laid his hands on those he Baptized … to CONFIRM them. And BAM !, they were Confirmed IN CHRIST. Confirmation is being taught here as ESSENTIAL SACRAMENT.

All Catholic infants, earlier baptized … must latter receive H.S. via Confirmations. This is bedrock Catholic Dogma. Those who don’t continue further to be Confirmed IN CHRIST … are in error with Catholic Doctrines.

So, was John’s Baptism efficacious ? YES … CHRIST saw to it. CHRIST MADE his baptism EFFICACIOUS … when these earlier Converts were COMPLETED into Christ by their CONFIRMATIONS — With Christ always DOING THE HONORS !!! There is no salvation apart from Christ. Confirmation is the Final Key factor. W/O Christ confirming us with his H.S. … we remain in our error, not yet fully enlightened.
The baptism of John is not the same thing as Christian baptism. That’s why Paul had to rebaptize those disciples who had only received the baptism of John. Why? Because the baptism of John was not a sacrament. The Council of Trent clearly states:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ; let him be anathema.

The baptism of John did not effect regeneration.

God Bless,
Michael
 
After checking with several Baptist pastors in this area from Southern baptist to Independent Bible believing Baptists I have yet to find ONE that feels that Baptism is a sacrament but as you state an ordinance and part of entrance right into the church because of it being obedience to the commands of Christ. But in all fairness brb3 did say “Should call it a sacrament” so this says to me that brb3 is trying to justify Baptist thought with Catholic; the two do not mix here either…
Check out Finney’s statement here:
those who were willing to be on the side of Christ, were called out to be baptized. It held the place that the anxious seat does now as a public manifestation of their determination to be Christians
He intended the anxious seat/invitation/sinner’s prayer to replace Baptism. Which it has in evangelical/fundamentalist churches. So, in a sense, it is a ‘Baptist sacrament’ in the embryonic sense of the word, but they do not look at it that way. They have taken the supernatual elements (which Episcopals agree with as well) away from the traditional Sacraments and* created* thier own “sacrament” they insist is supernatural, though they deny this reality to Sacramental christians.
 
The baptism of John is not the same thing as Christian baptism. That’s why Paul had to rebaptize those disciples who had only received the baptism of John. Why? Because the baptism of John was not a sacrament. The Council of Trent clearly states:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ; let him be anathema.

The baptism of John did not effect regeneration.

God Bless,
Michael
Don’t you remember brb3 thinks Trent only applies to priests.:rolleyes: Despite the fact that many “If anyone says” statements run rampant through it.😛

The baptism of John is clearly stated in scripture was ONLY for repentance, therefor Fr John’s post regarding the Jewish Mickva ritual baths for purification is very true. John’s type of baptism would have needed to be done over and over again, just as Jewish ritual baths were.
 
At the POINT IN TIME when it was used … it was EFFICACIOUS !!! Again, man/womankind are on a JOURNEY to our fuller understandings IN CHRIST.
Christ came to JOHN, to make John’s Baptism COMPLETE. John knew it IMMEDIATELY ! As he said/taught “I must decrease, as Christ must increase”.

IF John baptized After meeting Christ … surely he added the name of Jesus to his Baptismal spoken Rites.

I’m off for several days or R & R, spiritual reflection/study,etc. Away from the net for awhile. When I return, I hope to learn that you 4-5 here have come to accept John’s Baptism as Efficacious for it’s age … and that Christ has ALWAYS been the one doing the Spiritual Baptisms ! … dating back to the Age of Noah and Family, including any infants/young children on the Ark 🙂

To my friends in Christ … Mikeledes / Fr.John / Padrej / Crazzeto / etc … lets work out our minor doctrinal speedbumps . :grouphug: … and head for the RED ZONE ! Always heading for the Goal // our High Calling IN CHRIST .
John the Baptist him self disagree’s with you sir:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=1&l=8&f=s#x
And he preached, saying: There cometh after me one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I have baptized you with water; but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
The only effcacious baptism in Christian terms is that one which is with the Holy Ghost. It forever marks your soul for Christ…

John the Baptist’s baptism never did this, it was merely a ritual washing.
 
The baptism of John is not the same thing as Christian baptism. That’s why Paul had to rebaptize those disciples who had only received the baptism of John. Why? Because the baptism of John was not a sacrament. The Council of Trent clearly states:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ; let him be anathema.

The baptism of John did not effect regeneration.

God Bless,
Michael
Thank you for bringing Trent into the mix. It never ceases to amaze me the people think because of Vatican II Trent was somehow done away with and just become part of Catholic history of as brb3 stated “only for priests.” You are 100% correct that John’s baptism was not for regeneration, to say otherwise would be to add foreign teachings and dogma to the Catholic Church.
 
John the Baptist him self disagree’s with you sir:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=1&l=8&f=s#x

The only effcacious baptism in Christian terms is that one which is with the Holy Ghost. It forever marks your soul for Christ…

John the Baptist’s baptism never did this, it was merely a ritual washing.
I might add Jesus’ own words from the translation you just cited.
Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice.
From the New King James
But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”
So Jesus being baptized was to fulfill justice/righteous. Jesus although he did not sin, needed to fulfill the rituals of His day.
 
Okay, let’s try this again.
Charles Grandison Finney (1792-1875) was a minister, a lecturer, a professor, and a traveling revivalist who held heretical views on the Atonment. He invented the practice which he called the Anxious Seat, and developed a theological system around it. Finney was straightforward about his purpose for this technique and wrote the following comment near the end of his life:

The Anxious Seat was considered to be a **psychological technique that manipulated people to make a premature profession of faith. It was considered to be an emotional conversion influenced by the preachers’ magnetism.
The system that Finney admitted had replaced biblical baptism, is the nucleus for the popular
plan of salvation **that was made normative in the twentieth century.
It was popularized by Dwight L. Moody. It was standardized by Billy Graham.
I wanted to comment on the “psychological technique” portion of your post. I have been in ministry over 20 years now and I can remember early in my training in seminary the the “Preaching class” as we called it that you are taught to grab the congregation with stories that tug the heart strings and for lack of better terms “sell salvation” like it is some commodity that could be sold to the highest bidder. You are made to have the person see what they are lacking in their life and then pounce with the close of the altar call. It is rather akin to sales techniques on TV where the sales person shows you the product and makes you feel as if your home is not complete because it does not have product X, they show you all the uses and then “close” with the hard sell of “this can be yours for…” One old professor of mine said that the best preachers were the ones who were former sales people because the technique is the same just in a church setting and you are getting the person to accept something that is free-- Salvation.

I have since come to look at preaching a bit differently and more as the shepherd leading the sheep into a better relationship with Christ. I do feel that Christ wants a relationship with us and that when we “put off” the old and “put on the new” as Colossians says that we come into a relationship with God/Christ. Why else would Jesus call God Father/Abba. I want people to grow in their faith not remain the way they were.:twocents:
 
I wanted to comment on the “psychological technique” portion of your post. I have been in ministry over 20 years now and I can remember early in my training in seminary the the “Preaching class” as we called it that you are taught to grab the congregation with stories that tug the heart strings and for lack of better terms “sell salvation” like it is some commodity that could be sold to the highest bidder. You are made to have the person see what they are lacking in their life and then pounce with the close of the altar call. It is rather akin to sales techniques on TV where the sales person shows you the product and makes you feel as if your home is not complete because it does not have product X, they show you all the uses and then “close” with the hard sell of “this can be yours for…” One old professor of mine said that the best preachers were the ones who were former sales people because the technique is the same just in a church setting and you are getting the person to accept something that is free-- Salvation.

I have since come to look at preaching a bit differently and more as the shepherd leading the sheep into a better relationship with Christ. I do feel that Christ wants a relationship with us and that when we “put off” the old and “put on the new” as Colossians says that we come into a relationship with God/Christ. Why else would Jesus call God Father/Abba. I want people to grow in their faith not remain the way they were.:twocents:
Keep in mind that. fundamentalism is not an intellectual movement, but an emotional movement. Billy Sunday himself boasted the fact that he knew very little doctrine. I am not saying all fundamentalists are not intelligent. But they are certainly anti-intellectual.
From my blog:

Historically, fundamentalism was a reactionary movement against the growing apostasy and liberalism within Protestant America in the late 19th, and early 20th century. But it goes much deeper than that. The fundamentalist movement is a direct ancestor of the ‘revivalism’ of Early America, which in turn was an ancestor to Romanticism.
Romanticism was an artistic, literary, and intellectual movement that originated around the middle of the 18th century in Western Europe. It was partly a revolt against the social, and political norms of the Enlightenment, and a reaction against scientific rationalization of nature in art and literature. In the 17th century the shift was toward the subjective and the inner “experience” of being “born again”.
The Enlightenment was an eighteenth-century movement in Europe and America, also called the “Age of Reason, which advocated human reason as the primary basis of authority. The Protestant Reformation has always swung uncomfortably between both poles.
If fundamentalism finds its roots in Romanticism, Calvinism finds its best expression in the Enlightenment. The emphasis is on the individual and his or her mind. While the fundamentalist focuses on an expressive “experience”, the Reformed or Calvinistic tradition is focused on educating the people of God. A strong emphasis is placed on the mind, and cognitive understanding.
Simply put, fundamentalism focuses on the emotions, while the Reformed focuses on the intellect or the mind.
 
Well guys. I really miss these discussions. Still making treks to the library to use their computers (mine is dead.) I’ll be out of pocket for a few weeks–Company coming and my son is graduating from University–Commencement Saturday. Yeah!!! :extrahappy:

I miss you all, and I miss our discussions. Be back in a few weeks.

God bless,
Anna
 
We’ve certainly missed your presense here Anna, major congrats to your son! Hopefully you’ll get your computer working again soon.
 
He must not have added Christ because in Acts 19: 1-7 these 12 believers (Disciples as it says in some translations) had never heard of Jesus’ Baptism but only John’s for repentance. So it is blatantly obvious that these persons who never received the Holy Spirit at baptism needed to be re-baptized into Jesus’ baptism. Verse 4 is the most telling in that "Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” " Notice Paul tells the Purpose of John’s baptism and they should believe on Jesus but he obviously did not add Jesus to the Baptism formula as these “disciples” did not know the Holy Spirit. IF John had added Jesus to the baptism formula they would have known the Holy Spirit.
We know John pointed his disciples to Jesus - when they asked him if Jesus was the Messiah. John was soon captured by Herod, and died the martyr’s death for bearing witness to Jesus as the Christ, and also telling Herod he was a adulterer.

So, it is almost certain that Apollos, and his 11 friends, were converts/disciples of John before he baptised Jesus and was using his pre-Christian baptismal rites.

So, your proof above won’t hold up.
 
The way I see it you must have been a fairly strong Baptist as that is showing up in your posts, but you cannot put Baptist/Protestant theology into the Catholic faith any more than I can ask the Pope to become the Arch Bishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican church, it just does not work that way.
God can do anything, for anyone. I’ve made much progress toward a better understanding/acceptance of Catholic dogma. I’ll admit I’m in a ‘dogmatic’ transition …🙂

Nevertheless, I’m a few days ahead of you — re: Catholic conversion. Come join me in being fully confirmed in All [most] of Catholic Dogma 👍
 
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