Protestants spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics

[distracted]

i wish i could remember where i heard that, but it makes sense because Protestants, generally speaking (especially those who live by OSAS) make a lot of “excuses” for their sins and bad behavior… They think they don’t have to “pay” for then because Jesus paid the price… What they don’t realize is that sin causes an ugly stain on the soul that will keep the soul from entrance into Heaven - until it is wiped away… (by the application of Christ’s Blood atonement)… on this earth and/or in Purgatory…

Revelation says that “no unclean thing will enter Heaven” (21:27)…

(1 Cor 3:13, St. Matthew 18:23, St. Matthew 12:32, etc…)

They don’t seem to believe that what Christ did on Calvary actually has to be APPLIED…

It is like being given a nutritious, delicious meal… and not making a move to eat it because you think… “I don’t need to… i will remain healthy indefinitely anyway…”

 

[thecoach]

i wish i could remember where i heard that, but it makes sense because Protestants, generally speaking (especially those who live by OSAS) make a lot of “excuses” for their sins and bad behavior… They think they don’t have to “pay” for then because Jesus paid the price… What they don’t realize is that sin causes an ugly stain on the soul that will keep the soul from entrance into Heaven - until it is wiped away… (by the application of Christ’s Blood atonement (on this earth and/or in Purgatory)…

Revelation says that “no unclean thing will enter Heaven” (21:27)…

(1 Cor 3:13, St. Matthew 18:23, St. Matthew 12:32, etc…) .

A) There is no such thing as Purgatory.

B) How can you possibly lift an ego that large? Where do you get off with your condemnations? Best keep you mind at home, the RCC will have much to answer for.

 

[distracted]

A) There is no such thing as Purgatory.

B) How can you possibly lift an ego that large? Where do you get off with your condemnations? Best keep you mind at home, the RCC will have much to answer for.

i corrected some errors and added to what i said. Did you read that added part??

Also: If no Purgatory, how do you interpret those scriptures given?? I don’t have a Bible on me but when i do, i will post them, word for word. i will even use a King James Bible if that makes you happy…

God bless…

 

[thecoach]

i corrected some errors and added to what i said. Did you read that added part??

Also: If no Purgatory, how do you interpret those scriptures given?? I don’t have a Bible on me but when i do, i will post them, word for word. i will even use a King James Bible if that makes you happy…

God bless…

If you speaking of Macabees, that is non-canonical.

 

[lak611]

We really cannot say who is going to spend more time in Purgatory. That is up to God. We do not even know how time is calculated in Purgatory. Since God exists outside of time, we cannot speculate on what time is to Him versus what it is to us.

 

[thecoach]

We really cannot say who is going to spend more time in Purgatory. That is up to God. We do not even know how time is calculated in Purgatory. Since God exists outside of time, we cannot speculate on what time is to Him versus what it is to us.

Nor is purgatory a teaching of canonical scripture.

 

[lak611]

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw–
1Co 3:13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 **If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **
(RSV)

 

[Dempsey1919]

If you speaking of Macabees, that is non-canonical.

Why because Luther said so?

Luther removed these books because they presented problems for him.

Oh, and I forgot, he decided to follow the Jewish canon that was formulated in AD90.

Who cares if the early Christians held these books to be canonical. The post-christian Jews know better than the early Christians as to what makes up the Christian canon.

 

[JonNC]

i wish i could remember where i heard that, but it makes sense because Protestants, generally speaking (especially those who live by OSAS) make a lot of “excuses” for their sins and bad behavior… They think they don’t have to “pay” for then because Jesus paid the price… What they don’t realize is that sin causes an ugly stain on the soul that will keep the soul from entrance into Heaven - until it is wiped away… (by the application of Christ’s Blood atonement)… on this earth and/or in Purgatory…

They don’t seem to believe that what Christ did on Calvary actually has to be APPLIED…

It is like being given a nutritious, delicious meal… and not making a move to eat it because you think… “I don’t need to… i will remain healthy indefinitely anyway…”

Just a couple of thoughts.

1. This I would take as a much more charitable stance than “there is no salvation outside the Church”. And with no sarcasm whatever, I thank you for that.
2. Are you, then, saying that those of us who do believe that we must confess and strive to not sin, that salvation can be lost if our faith becomes dead, and strive to do the good works Christ puts before us, will spend less time there than an OSASer, even though non-catholic?
3. As for time in purgatory, what is your take on this?
   vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time,

thecoach wrote:

If you speaking of Macabees, that is non-canonical.

If distracted uses the KJV, then most likely he won’t use Macabees.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Why because Luther said so?

Luther removed these books because they presented problems for him.

Oh, and I forgot, he decided to follow the Jewish canon that was formulated in AD90.

Who cares if the early Christians held these books to be canonical. The post-christian Jews know better than the early Christians as to what makes up the Christian canon.

Luther’s translation included all the DC books.
Jon

 

[ziapueblo]

If you speaking of Macabees, that is non-canonical.

Macabees is canonical Scripture.

 

[distracted]

If you speaking of Macabees, that is non-canonical.

Says whom???

 

[distracted]

Luther’s translation included all the DC books.
Jon

not true… he threw out the 7 deutero-cannonicals and wanted to throw out James, Revelation and Hebrews and (I think) Peter… The only reason he didn’t was because his colleagues talked him out of it… He didn’t like those books’ OSAS-refuting scriptures…

 

[distracted]

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw–
1Co 3:13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 **If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **
(RSV)

Thanks. .Always a joy to read the Word of God…

 

[thecoach]

Says whom???

Says the Jewish canon

 

[JonNC]

not true… he threw out the 7 deutero-cannonicals and wanted to throw out James, Revelation and Hebrews and (I think) Peter… The only reason he didn’t was because his colleagues talked him out of it… He didn’t like those books’ OSAS-refuting scriptures…

I do not want to get off of your main topic because I find myself very interested and, yes, open to the idea of purgatory when framed as the pope did in my quote above. I’m, therefore, much more interested in your expanding on your thread.

In closing and just as a sidebar, I’ll state that Luther was never OSAS, and I’ve included a quote and reference about Luther’s translation and what he said about the DC books below.

Jon

http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20canon%202.htm#a2

An obvious sign that someone has not read anything about Luther and the canon is the assertion, “Luther removed books from the Bible,” or “Luther removed books from the New Testament.” It is a simple historical fact that Luther’s translation of the Bible contained all of its books. Luther began translating the New Testament in 1521, and released a finished version in 1522. He published sections of the Old Testament as he finished them. He finished the entire Bible by 1534. During these years, various incomplete editions were released. Some Protestants might be surprised to learn that Luther also translated the Apocrypha. The editors of Luther’s Works explain, “In keeping with early Christian tradition, Luther also included the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’”

 

[lak611]

i wish i could remember where i heard that, but it makes sense because Protestants, generally speaking (especially those who live by OSAS) make a lot of “excuses” for their sins and bad behavior… They think they don’t have to “pay” for then because Jesus paid the price… What they don’t realize is that sin causes an ugly stain on the soul that will keep the soul from entrance into Heaven - until it is wiped away… (by the application of Christ’s Blood atonement)… on this earth and/or in Purgatory…

Revelation says that “no unclean thing will enter Heaven” (21:27)…

(1 Cor 3:13, St. Matthew 18:23, St. Matthew 12:32, etc…)

They don’t seem to believe that what Christ did on Calvary actually has to be APPLIED…

It is like being given a nutritious, delicious meal… and not making a move to eat it because you think… “I don’t need to… i will remain healthy indefinitely anyway…”

From this article:

The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person’s case.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Says the Jewish canon

You are correct! I have a copy of The Jewish Study Bible, (published by Oxford University Press) - featuring the Jewish Publication Society Tanakh Translation (ISBN# 978-0-19-529751-5). Macabbees and the other deuterocanonical books are not included.

 

[Good_Fella]

There is no such thing as Purgatory.

And maybe there’s no such thing as Three Divine Persons in one God, or a hypostatic union of divine and human natures in Christ?

What the Catholic Church dogmatically declares true is a divine truth.

The Church infallibly teaches that the souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. This dogma of the Church no less is supported by Sacred Scripture.

I’m sure you would agree that in Heaven there is no suffering and in Hell the souls of the damned feel no compassion for each other or for those still living in this world, since compassion is a grace from God and those in Hell are deprived of God’s grace. If this is true, and you agree, please tell us where the deceased rich young man is as he feels compassion for his surviving brothers and desires to warn them of his place of suffering so that they don’t share his eternal fate. Is he in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory? Obviously he isn’t in Heaven, since he’s suffering and wants to warn his brothers. And he can’t be in Hell for he feels love and compassion for them. So, then, where is he if there’s no such place as Purgatory? [Lk 16, 19-31].

Jesus warns that anyone who says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next (‘mellonti’ = afterlife) [Mt 12, 32]. Our Lord implies that there is still hope for the forgiveness of sins in the afterlife by telling us that for some people there is absolutely no hope left. Our hope to be forgiven isn’t exercised only in this life before we die. Again, I’m sure you will agree that the forgiveness of sins isn’t something to hope for once we’ve reached Heaven, since forgiveness is no longer required, and that in Hell there isn’t any hope of forgiveness for the eternally damned, since all hope is lost. So if that’s the case, then where are those deceased souls who still have hope for the forgiveness of their sins before they reach Heaven, but are not in Hell where there’s no more hope? Couldn’t they possibly be in Purgatory, a state of purification in the afterlife that exists between Heaven and Hell?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And maybe there’s no such thing as Three Divine Persons in one God, or a hypostatic union of divine and human natures in Christ?

What the Catholic Church dogmatically declares true is a divine truth.
So, what I hear you saying is that the CC is divine or God. Ian’t that against the first commandment?
Goodfellow:

The Church infallibly teaches that the souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. This dogma of the Church no less is supported by Sacred Scripture.

Again what I hear you saying is that Jesus sacrifice for our sins on the cross wasn’t quite enough, and there is still something we have to do to earn our own salvation. How is that a gift? John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Goodfellow:

I’m sure you would agree that in Heaven there is no suffering and in Hell the souls of the damned feel no compassion for each other or for those still living in this world, since compassion is a grace from God and those in Hell are deprived of God’s grace. If this is true, and you agree, please tell us where the deceased rich young man is as he feels compassion for his surviving brothers and desires to warn them of his place of suffering so that they don’t share his eternal fate. Is he in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory? Obviously he isn’t in Heaven, since he’s suffering and wants to warn his brothers. And he can’t be in Hell for he feels love and compassion for them. So, then, where is he if there’s no such place as Purgatory? [Lk 16, 19-31].

Well, it does say in verse 23 that the rich man is in hell, but it also says in verse 22 that Lazarus is carried to the bosum of Abraham. Obviously this is a parable and not to be taken literally.
goodfellow:

Jesus warns that anyone who says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next (‘mellonti’ = afterlife) [Mt 12, 32]. Our Lord implies that there is still hope for the forgiveness of sins in the afterlife by telling us that for some people there is absolutely no hope left. Our hope to be forgiven isn’t exercised only in this life before we die. Again, I’m sure you will agree that the forgiveness of sins isn’t something to hope for once we’ve reached Heaven, since forgiveness is no longer required, and that in Hell there isn’t any hope of forgiveness for the eternally damned, since all hope is lost. So if that’s the case, then where are those deceased souls who still have hope for the forgiveness of their sins before they reach Heaven, but are not in Hell where there’s no more hope? Couldn’t they possibly be in Purgatory, a state of purification in the afterlife that exists between Heaven and Hell?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

I don’t beleive that this is implying that there is hope for forgiveness of sins after death at all. I beleive that this is emphasizing the fact that just as you can no longer receive forgiveness after death ie. Your fate is sealed at death. You cannot receive forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. ie. Forgiveness will not be received if it is not asked for.

In Christ Richard