Protestants try to disprove Kepha in Matthew 16:18

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Hi, Julia Mae,

I think it would be good to take the most commonly understood reading, and with understanding apply this to our discussion. Simply stated, Christ asks a question of all of those present (you know, the common understanding is that the 12 were there but, maybe there were others. It is Peter alone gives the correct answer. Christ states that Peter (the only one who answered correctly) actually was given the answer by God the Father. The common understanding is that Christ was speaking to Peter - and this comes from Christ’s opening statement, “Thou art Peter…” and none of the others present are identified by name. Here is a link that may be helpful: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Matthew_16

Actually, the statement does appear to be a revelation in the sense that Christ did reveal His Will to all present. But, to say that you can not base any belief on what you have identified as a ‘presumption’ is strictly up to you. Now, if you want to create something here - that is fine - just don’t find fault with those who do not share your flare for imagination. I mention this because you appear content to mere spin one opinion out after another - and it is really time to start coming up with more.

Julia Mae the problem is your understanding of the text - not the text itself. There is no support for 11 other sets of keys being given out - and that is the part that is not supported by any text.

And, yes, I think Matthew 16:18 refers only to Peter. If you think it refers to anyone else, then you need to identfy them and then give the reference that supports this particular point of view.

Ultimately, your knowledge of Greek in this New Testament verse comes down in one of two camps: the explanation give by the Chruch that historically claimed to have been founded on Peter or the camp that claims that personal interpretaton of Scripture is acceptable. The Catholic Church has addressed this for anyone willing to read their statements.

Concerning the Orthodox Chruch - the ECF both east and west accepted the Bishop of Rome as the leader - the one in charge of the Church. There was really harmony in the beginning - and this is the point - it was only later on that lthe Great Schism took place. And, here are the links to support this statement:

fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html

davidmacd.com/catholic/orthodox/pope_orthodox_church_fathers.htm

catholicfaithandreason.org/papal-supremacy-in-the-bible-and-church-fathers.html

May I suggest that you read the references I have provided to you - and then rather then merely saying, “No, it’s not, no, it’s not …” provide a reasonable argument. Saying something is not supported by Scripture - and I am saying it is and I am providing references - from the 2nd-5th Century Early Church Fathers really means you need to do th better job of presenting your position.

God bless
No one says He did only choose Peter. He could have told them all. Peter may have simply been the first to answer. The Apostles could all have been discussing it for months. Years, really. We cannot base any belief on a presumption that only Peter had this revelation. There’s no evidence for it

It has complete support from the text. What part do you think does not?

And you think this means He was only referring directly to Peter?

Who is Jesus saying should forgive essentially endlessly here? Only Peter?

I do. I do because if I am going to discuss Scripture and what meanings can be gotten, it’s important to know. Translation is a very slippery process, more art than science. We can justify nothing whatsoever from Scripture by reading English translations, IMO. For instance, in the very passage we are discussing, a Greek word is simply ignored and not translated at all.

The fact is: he is not and was not. The Orthodox, just as ancient and sharing the same Fathers and Apostles, do not recognize any such thing. The first church at Jerusalem was headed by James the Just, not Peter.

There is absolutely no question of anyone’s faith in Christ. The issue is: what did He say - what was His intent? You believe, and the Roman Catholic Church teaches and expects adherence to a certain interpretation. This was not an interpretation shared amongst all the ancient Universal churches.
 
Hi, Fisherman Carl,

Excellent post! 👍

Thanks for the link - I had not seen this before. Hey, Julia Mae, have you seen this link before?

God bless

👍
I think you will want to start reading here - catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

In addittion, we know Jesus spoke Aramaic because of what others have already said - He spoke it on the cross and he spoke it when he healed the girl. In addition some of the text you can tell was translated from Aramaic to Greek.

Now for the clincher. Saying that Petros means little pebble and Petra means large rock shows a faulty knowledge of first century Koine Greek. I will quote an excerpt from a Catholic Answers article to show this.

"As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros andpetra simply meant “rock.” If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek.

(For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368)."

catholic.com/tracts/peter-the-rock

Finally, just examining the context of the text yields the result that Peter is the rock. Even Protestant scholars agree on this. Any attempt to circumvent this is done because of the opposition to Catholic interpretation and its implication and has nothing to do with what the text actually means to an objective observer. At the very base level the question should be at least why is Peter the only apostle or person in the bible to have his name changed to rock? That has to mean something! Protestants can not just write that off as meaningless!

"Blessed are YOU, Simon Bar-Jona!.. And I tell YOU, YOU are Peter [which means rock], and on this rock I will build my church… I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
  • Mt 16:17-19
Here Jesus calls Simon blessed! Then he calls him rock and says upon this rock he will build his church. And then he blesses him again by saying he will give him the keys of the kingdom and he will have authority in heaven and on earth. So we see really Peter is being blessed 3 times by Jesus. It would make no sense for Jesus to bless Peter and then call him a little pebble to make light of him, but still give Peter the keys to the kingdom and authority in heaven and earth. The context of the passage is a blessing to Peter. And as we see Jesus uses the language of Is 22 where we see the changing of the Prime Minister of the Davidic Kingdom. Since Jesus is the new Davidic King whose thrown will never end, it is entirely his right to appoint his Prime Minister to be Peter.

“In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.”
  • Is 22:20-24
Many Protestant scholars admit that Peter is the rock, however they get around this by denying that Peter’s office was succeeded or by saying that Mt 16:15-19 was a later addition to the text and not part of the original. However, the office of Prime Minister denotes succession. Prime Minister’s were replaced and succeeded by new one’s in the Davidic Kingdom as can be seen in Is 22:15+. And, if you want to start throwing out texts from the bible that you don’t agree with that is a slippery slope.
 
catholic.com/tracts/peters-primacy

catholic.com/tracts/apostolic-succession

They recognized Peter as the head of the Church, and recognized Apostolic Succession. The obvious link there is that the Pope is a Bishop, and the office of the Bishop passes on through Apostolic Succession.
I don’t have any problem with Apostolic succession, it simply isn’t going to be much use in this specific debate as the Orthodox have as firm, or even firmer, Apostolic succession, yet - they do not accept the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. BUT - in fact - it’s all off-topic, because the topic is the Scripture and how to translate and interpret it.

We cannot use the writings of anyone two hundred years after the fact who already have a stake in the answer, just as we can’t use the sources, just as ancient, that the Orthodox rely on. There is nothing from the early years of the Church to show that those in authority thought of Peter as the “pope.” (Though they would not use that word.) Indeed, in Scripture we find someone else is the first post-incarnation decision-maker. Then there is the letter to the Romans Paul wrote. It’s authoritative if nothing else.

I am not arguing against or for anything. I’m just pointing out that we don’t have anything from the early, the truly early, Church to justify what happened that resulted in the schism. I appreciate the links, however.
 
Hi, Julia Mae,

There you go again.

You have made another unsubstantiated statement that has already been disproven. The Early Eastern Fathers accepted the Bishop of Rome as the leader of the Catholic Church. These are the ones who were chronologically closer to Christ and the Apostles.

So, you are concerned about someone writing about an event 200 years after the fact - because you think they may have a ‘stake in the answer’. Look at all of the historians out there - who write about events from all different time periods - and all have something to say. The basic idea is that scholarship is put out for others to carefully review - and not dismissed out of hand because of a bias. The term ‘pope’ means ‘papa’ or ‘Father’ and it is not really clear when this term came into use, but it appears to have been officially used prior to 250AD . Here are a couple of links that may be helpful:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

Why be vague? Just who are you identifying as the, “… first post-incarnation decision-maker…”. And what exactly in Romans are you talking about? Now, if you are searching for a Biblical reference to Paul’s respect for Peter, try Galations 1:18 - here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Galatians_1 Paul has the Damascus experience, and retires for 3 years (doing exactly what is not known) but then goes to visit with Peter and stays with him for 15 days. There is no other example of Paul visiting any of the apostles or staying with them. Paul was learning from ‘The Rock’ - the Prince of the Apostles - the leader of the Church.

God bless

Julia Mae, to claim that you are not arguing for or against anything stretches more then the imagination. Just review you last posts - they are not inquiries or even dialogues but rather unsubstantiated attacks - on legitimate referenced articles presented by various posters.
I don’t have any problem with Apostolic succession, it simply isn’t going to be much use in this specific debate as the Orthodox have as firm, or even firmer, Apostolic succession, yet - they do not accept the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. BUT - in fact - it’s all off-topic, because the topic is the Scripture and how to translate and interpret it.

We cannot use the writings of anyone two hundred years after the fact who already have a stake in the answer, just as we can’t use the sources, just as ancient, that the Orthodox rely on. There is nothing from the early years of the Church to show that those in aruthority thought of Peter as the “pope.” (Though they would not use that word.) Indeed, in Scripture we find someone else is the first post-incarnation decision-maker. Then there is the letter to the Romans Paul wrote. It’s authoritative if nothing else.

I am not arguing against or for anything. I’m just pointing out that we don’t have anything from the early, the truly early, Church to justify what happened that resulted in the schism. I appreciate the links, however.
 
Julia Mae, to claim that you are not arguing for or against anything stretches more then the imagination. .
I won’t be reading any more posts from you as I rather dislike having my integrity called into question. IMO, you interpret rather a lot of things, including my posts, in ways not warranted.

God bless you.
 
I don’t have any problem with Apostolic succession, it simply isn’t going to be much use in this specific debate as the Orthodox have as firm, or even firmer, Apostolic succession, yet - they do not accept the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. BUT - in fact - it’s all off-topic, because the topic is the Scripture and how to translate and interpret it.

We cannot use the writings of anyone two hundred years after the fact who already have a stake in the answer, just as we can’t use the sources, just as ancient, that the Orthodox rely on. There is nothing from the early years of the Church to show that those in authority thought of Peter as the “pope.” (Though they would not use that word.) Indeed, in Scripture we find someone else is the first post-incarnation decision-maker. Then there is the letter to the Romans Paul wrote. It’s authoritative if nothing else.

I am not arguing against or for anything. I’m just pointing out that we don’t have anything from the early, the truly early, Church to justify what happened that resulted in the schism. I appreciate the links, however.
Actually, many Orthodox did accept Peter’s primacy until the Schism. They split over mainly political issues after Constantinople was sacked in 1054 AD. If you read the article I posted from Scott Hahn you see that the first thing that happens in scripture in Acts 1 is that Peter stands up amongst them and chooses as a successor for Judas. No one questioned Peter’s authority to do this.

We can use the writings of people 200 years after since they reflect not only the beliefs of the people at that time but the beliefs that were passed onto them. If we disincluded the writings of people 200 years after we would have to throw away a lot of things like evidence for the belief in the Trinity, etc. St. Irenaeus for instance recognized the bishop of Rome’s authority in his writing in about AD 189. Irenaeus, a Bishop in now Lyons, France, was a 2nd generation Christian which means he learned from Polycarp who learned from John the Apostle. Are you seriously saying that Christianity was corrupted within 2 generations?

BTW there was no bishop in Constantinople until the 4th century as the city was built by Constantine at that time. Does that mean his authority is invalid? Or does the Church have the right to make binding decisions after the apostles died? The power to bind and loose?
 
** tqualey and Mystophilus…**

sorry about the inhospitality, mates… Sending you a Fosters and a bit of shrimp off the barbie…

and… I got to tell you… I’m Australian, allright… born in Australia, but, mainly raised in the US. (dual citizenship) Dad was a pilot in WWII (yep, I’m on in years) and after the war, he stayed around because he married Mum…

moved over here when I was about 11… been here ever since, except a few visits to see family, down under.

the name “Aussie Stockman” is because my uncle is a rancher down there, and I worked for him a summer or two. Whenever I’ve gone back there, I fell right into the “accent” thing. I mean, I grew up with it every day of my life (with Mum) and getting over there, it’s just the most “natural” thing in the world for me… end up sounding like Crockodile Dundee or something… Changes right back to “Texas” once I’ve been here a day or two…

Thanks for what you guys had to say about what it “means” to “build something on some guy”… ie - country built on the Founding Fathers, or building a team on a guy like Pete…

I thought of another one: Say I was a business guy, and wanted to start a tech company, because I knew this kid who just had some killer idea for a new website or something… I’d be the “investor”, the guy who puts it all together, but if somebody asked me, I might say “I’m gonna build my company on that kid…”

and NOW - I’m gonna take that “hiatus” for a couple of days, and go back over previous posts… I’ll get back to you later in the week…

Aussie
 
It has complete support from the text. What part do you think does not?
και δωσω σοι τας κλεις της βασιλειας των ουρανων
For instance, in the very passage we are discussing, a Greek word is simply ignored and not translated at all.
If you mean τηι, it is not so much ignored as impossible to render in English, which only allows for one determiner per noun.
It’s actually of rather large importance when one realizes that the only word in English that translates one of them correctly is “massif.”
I can only presume that you mean πετρα there, but I still cannot see how that claim is coherent with the usage of the term either in Greek literature generally or in the LXX or in the NT.
 
Ultimately, your knowledge of Greek in this New Testament verse comes down in one of two camps: the explanation give by the Chruch that historically claimed to have been founded on Peter or the camp that claims that personal interpretaton of Scripture is acceptable. The Catholic Church has addressed this for anyone willing to read their statements.
Sorry, but with this I have to disagree strongly, because that dichotomy hugely oversimplifies the range of Early Church readings as well as the divisions within the Early Church over authority. The Catholic position on that text is not an unreasonable one, but neither is it the only reasonable one, which is one of the reasons why we do not base ecclesiology upon a single passage.
 
Actually, many Orthodox did accept Peter’s primacy until the Schism.
This is a good question to ask them here, I think, rather than we discuss it.
If you read the article I posted from Scott Hahn you see that the first thing that happens in scripture in Acts 1 is that Peter stands up amongst them and chooses as a successor for Judas. No one questioned Peter’s authority to do this.
No, he didn’t. There is a speech reported that Peter made to about a 100 followers in which he made the case that they needed to replace Judas. Then “they proposed two…” and they all voted on who was to replace Judas.
We can use the writings of people 200 years after since they reflect not only the beliefs of the people at that time but the beliefs that were passed onto them.
But then we are interpreting even more writings and not all the opinions from all the early Fathers. The topic is the Scripture and how it’s been u interpreted by others than Roman Catholics. The topic is not why Roman Catholics are taught what they are taught.
Are you seriously saying that Christianity was corrupted within 2 generations?
“Christianity was corrupted” all along, during the Incarnation, and Jesus corrected it, albeit Judas wasn’t listening, I guess, and has continued to be and Christians have continued to battle, often both sides truly believing they are the ones following Christ most closely. But this is also not the topic.
BTW there was no bishop in Constantinople until the 4th century as the city was built by Constantine at that time.
Well, no, that’s no correct. Constantine renamed the city of Byzantium (which had been around since about 600 BC) for himself. I can’t say if or who the Bishop of Byzantium was. But again, not the topic.
 
και δωσω σοι τας κλεις της βασιλειας των ουρανων
How does this not support what I said about the keys?
If you mean τηι, it is not so much ignored as impossible to render in English, which only allows for one determiner per noun.
I assume the bold is a typo and not some sort of test. There are 23 Greek words in the Textus Receptus version of Matthew 16:18. 21 of them are translated. As the two untranslated words are both forms of “the” I think it’s not impossible to render them in English. If you are referring to some other version of the Greek text, maybe you’d give us a link?
I can only presume that you mean πετρα there, but I still cannot see how that claim is coherent with the usage of the term either in Greek literature generally or in the LXX or in the NT.
Really?

Matthew 27:59-60
Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it [in] clean linen and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed.

They didn’t carve tombs out of single rocks, of course, but in a massif. I have other examples if we need them. This definition plays a key role in many objections to the Roman Catholic interpretation, which is why it’s so relevant to this thread’s topic.
 
This is a good question to ask the Orthodox here, I think, rather than we discuss it.

No, he didn’t. There is a speech reported that Peter made to about a 100 followers in which he made the case that they needed to replace Judas. Then “they proposed two…” and they all voted on who was to replace Judas.

But then we are interpreting even more writings and not all the opinions from all the early Fathers. The topic is the Scripture and how it’s been u interpreted by others than Roman Catholics. The topic is not why Roman Catholics are taught what they are taught.

“Christianity was corrupted” all along, during the Incarnation, and Jesus corrected it, albeit Judas wasn’t listening, I guess, and has continued to be and Christians have continued to battle, often both sides truly believing they are the ones following Christ most closely. But this is also not the topic.

Well, no, that’s no correct. Constantine renamed the city of Byzantium (which had been around since about 600 BC) for himself. I can’t say if or who the Bishop of Byzantium was. But again, not the topic.
 
No, he didn’t. There is a speech reported that Peter made to about a 100 followers in which he made the case that they needed to replace Judas. Then “they proposed two…” and they all voted on who was to replace Judas.
No he didnt what? Peter stood up among them as leader as had done many times before. It was because of his leadership no doubt guided by the Holy Spirit that they were even voting in the first place.
But then we are interpreting even more writings and not all the opinions from all the early Fathers. The topic is the Scripture and how it’s been u interpreted by others than Roman Catholics. The topic is not why Roman Catholics are taught what they are taught.
But it is you that are trying to limit sources to some arbitray numner to within 200 years

Julia Mae;9699921 said:
So you dont believe what Jesus said when he said the gates of hades will not prevail against his church?

Julia Mae;9699921 said:
Yes there was a smaller city there before but it was Constantine who built the city of Constantinople to replace it. What I heard was there was no bishop of constantonople until that time. They may have had a church there before. I could be wrong about there being no bishop there before but that is what i heard.
 
Hi, Mystophilus,

My guess is that to satisfy some, there would have been an immediate development of the Catholic Church on that First Pentecost. But, this was not God’s Plan.

In going to Acts 2 we find the Apostles still going to the Temple to worship. The Jewish leaders had to put them out - and then worship outside of the Temple/Syangogue began to develop.

As I see it, the ‘proof of the pudding’ is that prior to establishment of the Canon of Scripture, the successor to St. Peter was known throughout the world - East and West - and treated as the head of the Catholic Church.

I can understand your concern - and, I honestly appreciate them. Much of the writing in the very early Church was in Greek. Once Latin took over, knowledge of Greek seem to fade. And this means that some of the original texts could not be easily read. What I hear - and not from you - is that all of this seeming confusion about Matt 16:18 is because the early Catholic Church mistranslated / misunderstood the Greek. And, here comes the 16th Century revolt and suddenly this is not understood properly - because there is not need for the Magisterium - anyone can correctly interpret Scripture. And, there inlies the problem.

God bless
Sorry, but with this I have to disagree strongly, because that dichotomy hugely oversimplifies the range of Early Church readings as well as the divisions within the Early Church over authority. The Catholic position on that text is not an unreasonable one, but neither is it the only reasonable one, which is one of the reasons why we do not base ecclesiology upon a single passage.
 
Hi, Julia Mae,

You insist on simply presenting your opinion like it was an authority unto itself. This is simply a tedious exercise of listening to your spout one new doctrine after another. Even when given real sources that may be of educational benefit in presenting your position - you give every indication they have been simply ignored. And, yes, there you go again! 😃

Please produces a source for this ‘corrupted Christianity’ position. You see, with a ‘corrupted Christianity’ there is no reason to believe Christ Who guaranteed that the Gates of Hell would not prevail and that the Holy Spirit would protect the Church from error. And of course not only does Matt 16:18 fall apart - but so does everything else in the Bible! :eek:

God bless
“Christianity was corrupted” all along, during the Incarnation, and Jesus corrected it, albeit Judas wasn’t listening, I guess, and has continued to be and Christians have continued to battle, often both sides truly believing they are the ones following Christ most closely. But this is also not the topic.
.
 
How does this not support what I said about the keys?
You had said, “All people who come to Christ Jesus in this way are given the keys to the kingdom”, a claim which this text does not support. Do you mean some other passage?
I assume the bold is a typo and not some sort of test. There are 23 Greek words in the Textus Receptus version of Matthew 16:18. 21 of them are translated. As the two untranslated words are both forms of “the” I think it’s not impossible to render them in English. If you are referring to some other version of the Greek text, maybe you’d give us a link?
It is neither a typo nor a test: I was presuming that that was what you meant by “a Greek word is simply ignored and not translated at all”. I do not see how it would be possible to render it, nor how there are two untranslated words (untranslated by whom?).
Matthew 27:59-60
Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it [in] clean linen and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed.
They didn’t carve tombs out of single rocks, of course, but in a massif. I have other examples if we need them. This definition plays a key role in many objections to the Roman Catholic interpretation, which is why it’s so relevant to this thread’s topic.
Sorry, I had not encountered the small-scale usage of ‘massif’ before, and was trying to figure out why you were talking about major landscape features. As for πετρα referring to a mass of rock, yes, definitely.
 
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