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Reborn_in_Him
Guest
How do you know their misunderstanding is wrong ?
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DRIVING_BEAR
Guest
A big change in the church occured starting about 100 AD , the change was that the leadership of the church switched from jewish to gentile . the new gentile leaders of the church were not grounded in the jewish roots of the christian faith.
Also after 412 AD when Christianity became the religion of the roman empire , many of the old pagan reliigious preist were absorbed into the church . In this many of the pagan practices came with them.
Also after 412 AD when Christianity became the religion of the roman empire , many of the old pagan reliigious preist were absorbed into the church . In this many of the pagan practices came with them.
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Cat_Herder
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The Greek Orthodox did all of that; in fact their empire lasted a thousand years.
From the Bible, for example Genesis 3:15 and Psalm 51, which are clear that we inherit original sin but that God would exclude a Woman and Her Seed from that curse. Since Her Seed would go on to kill the devil, the Seed is Jesus and the Woman who is without sin is Mary. Genesis puts them at equal opposition with the devil, and that opposition is total in the case of Jesus, so it must be for Mary because that is what the Bible says. This is the Immaculate Conception: that Mary was excluded from the curse of original sin.
The Orthodox (and Greek Catholics) call her the Panagia or All-Holy for this reason, but because the Orthodox do not believe that original sin is inherited, they do not profess the Immaculate Conception.
Edit: wrong Psalm.
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Reborn_in_Him
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I don’t think the orthodox are perfect either in their past…
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anodos
Guest
I also had this conjecture as a non-Catholic: what began with the idea of a Jewish Messiah was corrupted almost beyond recognition by a Greek majority’s prejudices and philosophies.
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Marie_Gregg
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I don’t think you’ll get a good answer to this question because, to be quite honest, most Protestants I know have no idea what they don’t like about the Catholic Church; they just know that it’s “bad.”
That being said, I think that there have been issues of corruption, power struggles and just plain nastiness from the beginning. There never was a “perfect” Church. We wouldn’t have 3/4 of the New Testament if there was!
That being said, I think that there have been issues of corruption, power struggles and just plain nastiness from the beginning. There never was a “perfect” Church. We wouldn’t have 3/4 of the New Testament if there was!
- Side note - it makes me roll my eyes when I hear certain Christian groups insist that they are “going back” to the way it was in the New Testament. I came out of a church like that - but, strangely, we didn’t worship daily in the synagogue, we didn’t gather together daily, we didn’t share resources…
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anodos
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I know, and I can share in your eye-rolling. In my experience, the “going back” is usually expressed through the very modern avenue of “small groups”.
http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/00...0/90000/7000/100/97151/97151.strip.sunday.gif
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GaryTaylor
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Wow, is all I have to say, my sympathy is with ya all, I see some took the “complete” tour. Praise God ya didn’t get off at the Witchcraft, Voo Doo station.
Praise God ya didn’t get off at the Witchcraft, Voo Doo station.
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GaryTaylor
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Amen, here’s one that could use a “bump”
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anodos
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I sorta did that too…only the “white” stuff, though.Wow, is all I have to say, my sympathy is with ya all, I see some took the “complete” tour.
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GaryTaylor
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There’s more ways than heartaches in this world. You been Blessed in more ways than you know.I sorta did that too…only the “white” stuff, though.
Well, I suppose we all witnessed souls pass through this life and believe in nothing but the dollar bill in their pocket among other things of this world.
God has been banned in the secular, public schools for so long its no surprize that anything goes today. You can’t remember what you were never taught, its by the Lords grace one finds there way out at that point. So you receive the test first and the lesson later. You never forget those lessons… Thats the “God help me” lesson.
Peace
It is certainly part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and it has never ceased to be so.
I agree that the early Christians you mentioned were very catholic.
The bolded is the important question, but it isn’t an all-of-a-sudden event, nor is it a matter of the CC being the “corrupt” Catholic Church. Bt you asked about councils, so here goes. The last truly ecumenical council was the Second Council at Nicea, which rightfully rejected iconoclasm. It is the first seven that Lutherans recognize and accept. To my knowledge, they are the only 7 that both Rome and the Orthodox agree on. And there’s the issue. With the Schism came fractured unity, and fractured authority.
Most of the issues I have with Rome are since then, not before then.
Jon
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stewstew03
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Do you have any evidence to support this idea of “enormous” growth in literacy? It’s my understanding that literacy improved at a very slow, gradual pace. Although illiteracy rates may have been relatively low in some metropolitan areas (e.g., London), I’ve read estimates that, overall, illiteracy was as high as 70-90% in Europe in the 17th century (based on the abilities of men and women to spell their own name).
Any evidence you can provide would be appreciated…
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Marie_Gregg
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LOL! Too true.
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faithalone1
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Speaking For myself as a Protestant Christian i can offer a response. I personally don’t/can’t see the Catholic church as infallable nor as having any kind of supreme authority. The Catholic church had a monolpoly of power over Christianity for 1500 years for various reasons.The CC like any other church is fallible and makes mistakes. With the Reformation we also saw the printing press and spread of the bible to more people. once more people could actually read the word they saw the Christian Faith in a different light.Protestants just dont see the Pope or CC as having any special authority beyond any other church.
The CC teaching on Salvation was questioned and that helped spark the Reformation IMO.To me , the CC has always been wrong in regards to salvation and its view on itself as being infallible along with the bible.(sola scriptura is my belief). Yes the CC transcribed,cannonized the Word for all of us, thank you. But since that point we have seen a lot of man-made corruption, that to me,shows the CCs to be in error. The CC teachings(especially on salvation, and authority) were largely unchallenged because people had little access to scripture prior to the printing press. The CC monopoly on christianity was lost forever because of the printing press and the conviction of the great Reformer Martin Luther. The CC was as much of a poliitcal force as religious IMO and acted as such.This led to the Reformation. Power Corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. To me, that sums up a lot of CC history. I’ve always believed that the church of christ is a body of believers, not a group of churches overseen by a supreme bishop. I could never accept a church, tradition,teaching magesterium, or man here as infallible.
Catholics do a lot of good in the world and that doesn’t go unnoticed. and despite our differences on certain theological issues, a lot of good can be done.And i will say that a lot of confusion followed after Martin Luther. I see a LOT of negatives on the Protestant side, but it doesn’t change the truth of the Reformation IMO. So the CC has always been fallible and makes mistakes. But all faithful followers of Christ make up the “true” church IMO…
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faithalone1
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Really it comes down to the CC view on salvation and its claim to authority.
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Mark_McComish
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That’s a huge question. It depends on which protestant denomination that you ask. In my opinion, the true church has always existed and has always been fighting hearsay. Like someone said earlier, we wouldn’t have 3/4 of the New Testament if the apostles weren’t fighting heretics from the start. From my perspective, more and more hearsay slowly started to enter the church and was never expelled. Even before Luther, people were pointing out things in the church that needed to be changed.
History is messy. I don’t think its clean enough to just pick a date and say “That’s when the church went bad.”
History is messy. I don’t think its clean enough to just pick a date and say “That’s when the church went bad.”
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Swiss_Guy
Guest
It never did.
Cheers!
Cheers!
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
I don’t think the Catholic Church ever ceased to be a true Christian Church, the problem for me lies with the claim that it is THE (one, only and exclusively, however expressed) true Christian Church or that it is somehow superior in some way to the other churches. Several other churches have valid claims to apostolicity (which Fr. Benedict Groeschel collectively refers to as the “ancient churches,” and which I think is a pretty apt and useful designation). So I think the question really is when the other ancient churches began to be alienated from Rome, which one could trace back to the first Council of Ephesus. Constantinople (381) is the last time the Pope spoke in communion with all the world’s bishops (a truly ecumenical council), so for a date, if one is needed, Ephesus was in 431 AD. This schism between Rome and the churches of the East was actually much more significant in terms of numbers than the sometimes so-called “Great Schism” of 1054.
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