Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

  • Thread starter Thread starter distracted
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
distracted said:
that’s odd… i would think Lutherans would believe (more/less) in OSAS since their founder, M. Luther, was the first one (historically) who came up with the absurd idea…

But then i also know that the Lutherans DO not accept all that Luther taught… Thank God for that… 🙂
Click to expand...
Luther never believed in OSAS. It is a Calvinist idea from perseverence of saints. Lutherans do not believe in OSAS, not more, not less. Not at all.

Jon
 
TriuneUnity said:
Actually, that is the overall context of the passage. Now, I don’t believe in OSAS, I emphatically refute it. However, the context of the ‘Lord, Lord…’ passage is speaking of false prophets. The false prophets did many works, but never believed in Christ, taught false doctrine, etc.
Click to expand...
hmm… you don’t think it refers to “everyone”? I always thought it referred to anyone who… did things in Crhist’s name but didn’t do ALL that Chirst commanded…
 
thirdn6 said:
Wouldn’t you consider Luther as a false prophet also?
Click to expand...
unless he repented - and according to my information - he was DEFINITELY a false prophet… He knew the truth (or suspected he was against the truth…) and did what he wanted anyway. From wht i can tell, he just got lost on an ego trip… Pride…
How about protestant pastors or ministers who don’t have authority to teach Christ’s teachings. Aren’t they also false teachers because they teach false doctrines, etc?
Click to expand...
frankly, i think this is one reason Jesus said that few will find that narrow way to eternal life… Because, in a nut shell, people believe waht they want to believe… what is comfortable… what “tickles their ears”…

People want to believe in OSAS… so they do… Fortunately, i think most people eventually figure out that something isn’t right about that idea… Even so, they may choose to believe in it, more or less, anyway… just to avoid becoming Catholic… 🤷
 
distracted said:
hmm… you don’t think it refers to “everyone”? I always thought it referred to anyone who… did things in Crhist’s name but didn’t do ALL that Chirst commanded…
Click to expand...
Well, it may refer to anyone who claims to bear the name of Christ but doesn’t truly believe in Him. This could be false prophets, charlatans, or just simple people who associate with the church but do not have faith in Christ. Or those who by their actions show they do not profess Christ. Clearly, the false prophets were performing mighty works, but did not abide with the true vine. They were not performing the will of God…which Jesus elsewhere states is to believe in the one whom the Father sent.
 
TriuneUnity said:
. Or those who by their actions show they do not profess Christ. Clearly, the false prophets were performing mighty works, but did not abide with the true vine. They were not performing the will of God…which Jesus elsewhere states is to believe in the one whom the Father sent.
Click to expand...
and “believe” means doing everything Jesus said… How can you say you truly believe if you do not practice what He says? The daily Mass reading the other day was about how the wise man built his house on a rock… The rain came, the floods came… but the house stood… While the house of one who built on sand fell and was totally destroyed… Jesus called Peter “Rock”… and said that on that rock He would built His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it"

Jesus never promised that anything but His True Church would be able to prevail againt the formidable gates of Hell… no individual would prevail, no “other church” (so called) would so prevail… Only His Church is strong enough. I think people underestimate the power of the devil… and all his followers…

It seems Jesus wants us in HIs Church… 😃
 
distracted said:
and “believe” means doing everything Jesus said… How can you say you truly believe if you do not practice what He says? The daily Mass reading the other day was about how the wise man built his house on a rock… The rain came, the floods came… but the house stood… While the house of one who built on sand fell and was totally destroyed… Jesus called Peter “Rock”… and said that on that rock He would built His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it"
Click to expand...
Yeah…but the rock the wise man built his house on was the teachings of Christ. I don’t disagree that having faith in Christ means obeying Him…but the false prophets have both worries; they don’t believe, thus all their works are evil. Without faith, everything we do is iniquity.
It seems Jesus wants us in HIs Church… 😃
Click to expand...
So when are you becoming Lutheran?? hehe
 
ibkc said:
Funny - in the Bible, Jesus says nothing about the people having to wait 1500 years before His church would be established. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I agree!👍

He said, “The kingdom of God is at hand…”- not “…1500 years from now!”

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Adam14 said:
I don’t recall OSAS being taught in my Lutheran church. I’m pretty sure that it’s taught that one can fall away from their faith. Either way, I started doubting OSAS just before joining the Lutheran church, so it wasn’t an issue for me at the time.
Click to expand...
I don’t think we were taught OSAS in my old Lutheran church specifically, but more or less hinted at it.
Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:
Click to expand...
"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how we viewed this one when I was Lutheran, but I always figured it was talking about not being like the Pharisees. (I always envisioned some street preacher shouting “ALLELUIA!” when reading that passage. 🤷 :D)

But, after reading it some more, that’s what started breaking down any faint notion of OSAS.
Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…
Click to expand...
this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…
Click to expand...
There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…
Click to expand...
This one, we were taught that it was literal, and meant if you were being taken to court, to try and talk your way out of it before hand, IIRC.
 
distracted said:
Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]
Click to expand...
I’m not a believer in OSAS per se. But your scripture has nothing to do with this belief. 7:21 talks about people who are not believers that are using the name of Jesus.
Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…
Click to expand...
this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…
Click to expand...
There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…
Click to expand...
Again this verse has nothing to do with OSAS. Jesus wants us to resolve all our debts with one another before letting it go to court. I may be in jail for something I have done against my brother but that does not mean I am not saved. You obviously don’t understand reformed theology and the doctrine of OSAS.

PEACE
 
distracted said:
Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…
Click to expand...
I would ad to that this:

. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised): 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins. 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrew 10.
 
NDfan said:
I’m not a believer in OSAS per se. But your scripture has nothing to do with this belief. 7:21 talks about people who are not believers that are using the name of Jesus.

Again this verse has nothing to do with OSAS. Jesus wants us to resolve all our debts with one another before letting it go to court. I may be in jail for something I have done against my brother but that does not mean I am not saved. You obviously don’t understand reformed theology and the doctrine of OSAS.

PEACE
Click to expand...
How about this one?

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised): 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins. 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrew 10.
 
wisdomseeker said:
How about this one?

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised): 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins. 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrew 10.
Click to expand...
Again I’m not a believer in OSAS. I was merely pointing out the 2 verses had nothing to do with refuting OSAS and that it is a commonly misunderstood doctrine.

Hebrews is talking about someone who knows about Jesus yet continues to purposely sin. He or she cannot look forward to another sacrifice for forgiveness. Romans talks about this very issue when Paul states that you cannot be a servant to sin and Jesus at the same time. The old you cannot serve 2 masters.

OSAS simply recognizes that once you are saved you don’t stop sinning. We all sin everyday and fall short. That’s why Jesus died so we could have forgiveness before GOD. But OSAS does not state that you can be saved and then continue to purposely live a life of sin. People who believe in OSAS don’t purposely continue to commit sin. They don’t see confession as a necessary action because they don’t believe the sins you commit separate you from GOD once you are saved. Hence OSAS.

PEACE
 
This issue of OSAS is just like Catholic/Protestant debate on works.

Just as faith, without works is dead (so a Protestant believes works follows from faith and a Catholic might think works are necessary - but we end up in the same place - - so we should all live our lives as though OSAS is not true. A Protestant would say OSAS and those who intentionally sin (as oppossed to fall into sin and repent) were never saved - but the effect is those who are saved avoid sin and repent when they do sin. One who does not believe in OSAS would say we must repent from sin when we fall into sin else lose our salvation. We end up, once again, the same place 🙂 . Those who don’t repent were either never saved, or lose their salvation depending which side of the fence you are on the issue.

I do think that once we are touched by the Holy Spirit and born again, we will have an aversion to sin and desire to sincerely repent that did not exist before. Whether this rises to the level of OSAS, I don’t know.

Blessings,

Brian
 
NDfan said:
Again I’m not a believer in OSAS. I was merely pointing out the 2 verses had nothing to do with refuting OSAS and that it is a commonly misunderstood doctrine.

Hebrews is talking about someone who knows about Jesus yet continues to purposely sin. He or she cannot look forward to another sacrifice for forgiveness. Romans talks about this very issue when Paul states that you cannot be a servant to sin and Jesus at the same time. The old you cannot serve 2 masters.

OSAS simply recognizes that once you are saved you don’t stop sinning. We all sin everyday and fall short. That’s why Jesus died so we could have forgiveness before GOD. But OSAS does not state that you can be saved and then continue to purposely live a life of sin. People who believe in OSAS don’t purposely continue to commit sin. They don’t see confession as a necessary action because they don’t believe the sins you commit separate you from GOD once you are saved. Hence OSAS.

PEACE
Click to expand...
wait a minute. once saved always saved. what does that mean?

can anyone say for sure once saved they are always saved?

how do you know for sure you are saved, since Jesus Himself said. to man it si impossible but to God all things are possible. \

since those are pretty much people of Bible alone, where does the Bible says this?
 
ibkc said:
Funny - in the Bible, Jesus says nothing about the people having to wait 1500 years before His church would be established. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
They didnt have to. They only had to wait about 300 years for the mess to get fixed 😛
 
wisdomseeker said:
since those are pretty much people of Bible alone, where does the Bible says this?
Click to expand...
the Bible says anything BUT OSAS! James 2:12… St. Matthew 18:23… Rev 21:27… 1 Cor 3:13…

St. Paul even said that his is not assured… (can’t recall where that is)…

“work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top