Protestants who believe Mary, the Mother of God sinned

[KathleenGee]

WMScott,

Thank you !

They are totally missing the point that Mary leads us that much closer to Jesus…Mary helped me to withstand feminism and be content to stay home and care for my children, especially as I liked always getting out and about

…I think she helps us on the very fine details of our daily life in choosing God’s will, helping us to make our crosses lighter and experiencing joy in the cross…after all –

Mary was witness to Christ’s crucifixion as well…

A priest I worked with became his order’s provencial. .He had to go to the mission where three of his priests were killed by rebel forces. He sent me some books he had written. Myself and another noted how he looked very different in his face…and then when I looked at the time frame…it was trauma. The trauma of facing his brothers laying dead on Easter Monday in the tropical heat changed him…he looked like a different person…I would not recognize him then…

Flesh, trauma, love, divine grace, spirit, it all interacts…Bible alone without church is the Bible without humanity, judgment, condemnation…The Word of God Made Flesh gives us new life…from Jesus…through Mary to us…

Again, when you read the Bible outside of human experience, you are not getting the human experience of people living their faith. That is why with fundamentalists all you can share is your life with them…scruples…they have had the fear of hell put into them about us.

 

[wmscott]

As far a Sacred Scripture is concerned 1 Luke is a very telling narrative of the Blessed Mothers importance, state of being, and future. Before anyone starts to say it does not say that in the bible, or that is just catholic theology. Then as we all know not everything that Christ said and did is in the Bible, we know this. Do you think that God is so callous that when spending time with the apostles that he did not leave instructions on how His Mother was to be treated and viewed. Do you have that little faith or reason, you have to stop believing as a human, one with an agenda, and realize that there are things that are far beyond your comprehension. You don’t seem to have an issue with the Trinity, that’s not in the Bible, yet you accept it.

From the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary:

Ver. 28. Hail, full of grace:[5] by the greatest share of divine graces granted to any creature. This translation, approved by the ancient Fathers, agrees with the ancient Syriac and Arabic versions. There was no need therefore to change it into gracious, with Erasmus; into freely beloved, with Beza; into highly favoured, with the Protestant translators. For if seven deacons (Acts vi. 3.) are said to be full of the Holy Ghost, as it is again said of St. Stephen, (Acts vii. 55.) and also of the same St. Stephen, (Acts vi. ver. 8.) that he was full of grace, (as the learned Dr. Wells translates it in his amendments made to the Protestant translation) why should any one be offended at this salutation given to the blessed mother of God; who would not have been raised to this highest dignity, had not her soul been first prepared for it by the greatest share of divine graces? — The Lord is with thee, by his interior graces; and now, at this moment, is about to confer upon thee the highest of all dignities, by making thee truly the mother of God. (Witham)

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Wm Scott…

Jesus received pure flesh and blood from His mother, a creature set aside…and in our times…could she be in Revelations…the Great Sign that appeared in the sky?

Fundamentalists should take a look at dead flesh alive with grace from heaven…the corpus of St. Bernadette, a child of Mary, that is on display in Nevers, France, a girl who it is said never lost her baptismal innocence…meaning, she never wanted or willed to sin, but did so because her flesh was weak…

Jesus is THE WORD MADE FLESH…that is a big a great title of Scripture…and His flesh came from Mary!!! She brought that FLESH!

 

[wmscott]

As far a Sacred Scripture is concerned 1 Luke is a very telling narrative of the Blessed Mothers importance, state of being, and future. Before anyone starts to say it does not say that in the bible, or that is just catholic theology. Then as we all know not everything that Christ said and did is in the Bible, we know this. Do you think that God is so callous that when spending time with the apostles that he did not leave instructions on how His Mother was to be treated and viewed. Do you have that little faith or reason, you have to stop believing as a human, one with an agenda, and realize that there are things that are far beyond your comprehension. You don’t seem to have an issue with the Trinity, that’s not in the Bible, yet you accept it.

From the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary:

Ver. 28. Hail, full of grace:[5] by the greatest share of divine graces granted to any creature. This translation, approved by the ancient Fathers, agrees with the ancient Syriac and Arabic versions. There was no need therefore to change it into gracious, with Erasmus; into freely beloved, with Beza; into highly favoured, with the Protestant translators. For if seven deacons (Acts vi. 3.) are said to be full of the Holy Ghost, as it is again said of St. Stephen, (Acts vii. 55.) and also of the same St. Stephen, (Acts vi. ver. 8.) that he was full of grace, (as the learned Dr. Wells translates it in his amendments made to the Protestant translation) why should any one be offended at this salutation given to the blessed mother of God; who would not have been raised to this highest dignity, had not her soul been first prepared for it by the greatest share of divine graces? — The Lord is with thee, by his interior graces; and now, at this moment, is about to confer upon thee the highest of all dignities, by making thee truly the mother of God. (Witham)

Let me clarify here a bit before this gets misinterpreted:* “You don’t seem to have an issue with the Trinity, that’s not in the Bible, yet you accept it.” *
it is the word “Trinity” that is not found in the Bible. However, the ECFs and Doctors of the Church, through their wisdom and grasp of what Christ and the apostles taught, have defined and put a name to “Trinity”. This same wisdom and grasp of what Christ taught is also applied with regards to the Blessed Mother. I will bank on their wisdom hands down eveytime when it comes to issues where “Some” Protestants want to say their own fallible interpretations, logic and wisdom surpasses the ECFs.

 

[adstrinity]

And I came to Mary on Christmas Eve, 1974…I always was drawn to St. Francis of Assisi, and in fact the people with me were Capuchins, a branch of the Franciscans who serve the poorest people…but I wrote about my experience of Mary—very much in the background…and the way the Latins relate to her, they draw more on her presence and attendance to us every day, waiting to help us, but never wanting to draw attention to herself for her seek, but always for Jesus.

I came home and still wanted to draw more on her presence but could not… Also I was a little confused theologically having been exposed to liberation theology. Finally, when the Holy Father was shot in May of 1982, **I remember the power of the rosary. I got down on my knees and prayed for him and with the recitation of one rosary with Mary, my theological confusion totally ceased, and with her I felt so much closer to the truth of Jesus Christ…**but so connected now with every day life having meaning and purpose, especially mine now as a housewife in the time of women in their careers and making money and having so many titles and accomplishments.

I came to Mary and was consecrated to her on August 22 in 1989, and that year that date was not only Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth, but also the Immaculate Heart of Mary – the only safe place for all human beings on the planet…where she nurtures and loves you and protects you in Jesus Christ, she closer to Him than any other person…

It was Mary with the Holy Spirit who gave human form to Jesus.

It is Mary who makes the strongest Christians!

Kath, you scare me with your talk of coming to Mary (where’s that in the Bible) making you a stronger Christian.

Thank you for sharing, KathleenGee! And I’m so glad you asked that, Dokimas!

Much has been stated on this forum (though perhaps not this thread) about Luke 1:47, but, not a lot has been concentrated on Luke 1:46.

Luke 1:47 is where Mary admits She has a Saviour. Luke 1:46 states, in its entirity, “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.” Here it is in the Bible. Her sould magnifies the Lord. When one looks through a magnifier, things become clearer and bigger. Ergo, when we look to/through Mary, we can see God better. We go to Mary because She can only get us to God. I’d like to point out in Kathleen’s post that whenever she’s gushing about Mary, it always culminates with her getting closer to Jesus.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

Note in Luke 1 here that Mary NEVER exalts herself. 1) God is her saviour, 2) God is her master (she is His slave), 3 God has done great things TO her, not for her, not with her, TO her. She acknowledges she is wholy dependant on God and devotes her WHOLE being to Him in EVERY way. She is our model and what every follower of Christ should be.

 

[KathleenGee]

We can never say enough of Mary …

the problem is she decides when she wants to let you know her better…

because she is so humble and always wants the Lord to be the center of our life…

 

[Sword_Brethren]

The very fact you are using Capitalized “She” and “Her” reveal you consider her God. Capitalization of pronouns is a reference to God.

Una

thumbs down, come on.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Catholics,

Could Mary have sinned? If not, why?

Yes, Mary could have sinned since she had free will.

However, she did not sin because she was free from the effects of the sinful nature by virtue of her immaculate conception.

 

[Teneas]

You loose me if you apply your logic to Mary. There are too many verses that would indicate after Adam and Eve, Jesus was the only sinless One.

I know we lose you often man. It’s all good, as long as you recognize the fact that God made more than one person sinless on this earth before, the rest will come to you in time.

There are just as many versus to show that sin leads to death, and there were others that did not die here on earth, and were taken into heaven. Just one example: Elijah.

 

[Dokimas]

I know we lose you often man. It’s all good, as long as you recognize the fact that God made more than one person sinless on this earth before, the rest will come to you in time.

There are just as many versus to show that sin leads to death, and there were others that did not die here on earth, and were taken into heaven. Just one example: Elijah.

One day at least one of us will realize we were wrong.​

The Bible only indicated one other that did not die: Enoch.

 

[Xavierlives]

Let me clarify here a bit before this gets misinterpreted:* “You don’t seem to have an issue with the Trinity, that’s not in the Bible, yet you accept it.” *
it is the word “Trinity” that is not found in the Bible. However, the ECFs and Doctors of the Church, through their wisdom and grasp of what Christ and the apostles taught, have defined and put a name to “Trinity”. This same wisdom and grasp of what Christ taught is also applied with regards to the Blessed Mother. I will bank on their wisdom hands down eveytime when it comes to issues where “Some” Protestants want to say their own fallible interpretations, logic and wisdom surpasses the ECFs.

Unless that wisdom is in line with the Catholic church, then they are bloody brilliant!

 

[Douglas_Kraeger]

No it doesn’t follow, IMO.

Do you say that the thought of God is transient, it changes with time, God thinks of one thing, then another and so on, or do you say is always thinking one thought, eternally, always in the present tense? Is there a third choice for how God thinks? If God is always in the present tense saying He is putting enmitty between the devil and Mary (without violating her free will), God is always keeping her out of the devil’s camp, how could she sin?
To say “it does not follow” implies you see another possibility. What are you saying is the other explanation?

 

[Dokimas]

Do you say that the thought of God is transient, it changes with time, God thinks of one thing, then another and so on, or do you say is always thinking one thought, eternally, always in the present tense? Is there a third choice for how God thinks? If God is always in the present tense saying He is putting enmitty between the devil and Mary (without violating her free will), God is always keeping her out of the devil’s camp, how could she sin?
To say “it does not follow” implies you see another possibility. What are you saying is the other explanation?

Jesus said the devil wanted to sift Peter like wheat but Jesus took care of it.​

It’s not a big deal that Mary was like us. The fact God would choose a regular human is awesome. Mary was a wonderful example of a person of faith, of a person letting God have His way in a life. She’s a wonderful role model for all of us.

 

[Randy_Carson]

BTW, unless you forgot, Jesus is the only One to remain sinless. All the rest that exit the women’s wombs are sinful, by original and by commission (with the possible exception of babies that die before commiting sins).

With that exception, are you conceding that all have NOT sinned?

And can you consequently prove, that all who are born have inherited original sin?

Or is it possible that God could preserve one from original sin if he wanted to?

 

[Randy_Carson]

You loose me if you apply your logic to Mary. There are too many verses that would indicate after Adam and Eve, Jesus was the only sinless One.

Although most humans are born with two biological parents, at least three that we know of were not. Thus, “all” do not have two biological parents.

Although most humans commit sins in the course of their earthly lives, there are millions who never did. Thus, “all” have not sinned.

Although most humans begin their lives with the stain of original sin, there are at least four who did not. Thus, “all” are not sinful from the moment of their creation.

 

[wmscott]

Unless that wisdom is in line with the Catholic church, then they are bloody brilliant!

Of course

 

[ccolley]

Catholics,

Could Mary have sinned? If not, why?

I take it you are asking in order to avoid answering the question. If you have a question, then start your own thread.
CC

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Mary’s womb was sinless…Jesus could not be nurtured by sin. …

Beautifully put.

I had another thought in reading through these. We often talk of how sin separates us from God and that hell is the absence of God. Also that purgatory is necessary because nothing unclean can go to heaven, because it would be too painful for those who are unclean to be exposed to God, who is all good.

Perhaps, in addition to being a pure vessel for Jesus incarnate (who would not be nurtured by the blood of a woman tainted with sin). May she have been pure, in part, in order for her to not suffer while carrying the Son of God, Jesus? not sure, just putting the thought out there. Sure don’t want to go down the road of heresy, it’s just an interesting thought.

In addition, the resurrection of Mary into heaven would have been impossible without her being free of sin.

“Where is that in the Bible?” Truths are self-evident, they simply exist, and we look to the Magisterium, after great prayer, contemplation and research, to help us to understand the Truths handed down to us in our faith Traditions. They are always well-explained, not some command handed down from a king to be blindly followed. The more I read these documents the greater I understand the Truths.

 

[Dokimas]

With that exception, are you conceding that all have NOT sinned? I don’t know at what time babies start sinning. My guess is pretty quickly.

And can you consequently prove, that all who are born have inherited original sin? You said so, (you excepted Jesus and I guess Mary). I’d agree only with Jesus. If Mary didn’t have original sin and did not sin why did she need a Savior?

Or is it possible that God could preserve one from original sin if he wanted to? He is Soveriegn. He is, however, limited to the truth He established.

 

[Dokimas]

In addition, the resurrection of Mary into heaven would have been impossible without her being free of sin. Was Enoch and Elijah sinless? BTW, how do you know Mary was taken without dieing to Heaven?

“Where is that in the Bible?” Truths are self-evident, they simply exist, and we look to the Magisterium, after great prayer, contemplation and research, to help us to understand the Truths handed down to us in our faith Traditions. They are always well-explained, not some command handed down from a king to be blindly followed. The more I read these documents the greater I understand the Truths. Why do you need prayer, contemplation or research if you have the magisterium? It can’t be in error, can it?