Protestants who believe Mary, the Mother of God sinned

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Dokimas said:

Jesus said the devil wanted to sift Peter like wheat but Jesus took care of it.​

It’s not a big deal that Mary was like us. The fact God would choose a regular human is awesome. Mary was a wonderful example of a person of faith, of a person letting God have His way in a life. She’s a wonderful role model for all of us.
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I do not see where you directly answered my questions. Did I miss something?
 
Oops, sorry adstrinity I think I was a bit muddled about what you meant by Proto Evangelium! 😊 I thought you were referring to the Protevangelion (of James) esteemed by the early Eastern Church and the Gospel of Mary that Jerome wrote of. 😊

My main point is that Christ was promised as a redeemer to sinful, lost mankind and would be born of a woman. That the woman cited in the Proto Evangelium is Eve / womankind when the passage is cosidered in its context.

The concept of the virgin birth of the Messiah was implicit in the “seed of the woman” and explicit only circa 740 BC in Isaiah chapter 7. (Explaining why Jephtath’s daughter bewailed her virginity in the time of the Judges).

Mary’s virginity was virtue enough for the Son of God to come into the world. Yet she herself was of Adamic nature both body and soul. It is not the body that defiles (though it may be used as a commissioner of sins or become defiled) it is primarily the heart (spirit / soul) of man that is evil by nature.
 
adstrinity said:
But, that’s exactly the point, though. God would depend on somebody because He became human. Therefore, He was entirely dependant on His Mother and step-father, but, especially His Mother the first, oh, let’s say 2 years of life. God growing up depended on His parents adequately taking care of Him.
God himself would not depend on anyone but God/Jesus would because he came

  1. a infant child.;;;;;;;
    This is true with all infants and children, they for the first 2 years depent on their parents, so this is nothing special that was done.

    We know that Jesus was tempted but He was tempted externally by the devil, that is, He didn’t have the voice within Him daring Him to disobey God. IF Mary was a sinner, She would have the devil, in a sense, inside Her. She would be tempted from within. IF the devil is inside Her, would Jesus be able to reside within Her? He would be so very completely at Her mercy (and indeed He was).
    Yes he would be able to reside within her, he is God and without sin, reguardless if Mary did sin or was born with sin. So you are saying that Jesus would not be strong enough and God would not protect his son because Mary sinned or was born with sin.

    That is a good point. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

    There is another thing, let’s just say that She had a sinful body, that’s one thing, would She have been able to sin with God inside of Her? This is not taking into account Her first 12-13 years of life or life post-Nativity until dea…Her natural completion on this Earth.
    She was born with original sin and like all of us has a sin nature even if God/Jesus was inside her. How much do you know about her first 12-13 years of life? What is there to say she didn’t sin during her first 12-13 years?

    I MUST, in all good conscience, disagree. The Protoevangellium states that enmity will be between the woman and Her offspring. There are at least two people there who is the enemy of the snake. As I explained earlier, over 1000 years before the Reformation, when St. Jerome translated the Bible, the Bible the Church had, it was She because of the ipsa/ipsum disgression that we have She will do the crushing.

    15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

    15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

    www.drbo.org

    I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

    inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius

    latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=1&c=3

    No, if He was born of a sinless mother, He would be human. It is us who are less than human. God created man perfect, sans sin. That’s how humans should have been. We forfeited that to be less than what we should be.

    What is this, “sinful flesh.” That doesn’t even make sense. If Jesus was in sinful flesh, He would be naturally sinful and have sin.

    Where did St. Elizabeth say that?

    Where does it say the annointed would be born of sinful humans in the Old Testament?
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adstrinity said:
But, that’s exactly the point, though. God would depend on somebody because He became human. Therefore, He was entirely dependant on His Mother and step-father, but, especially His Mother the first, oh, let’s say 2 years of life. God growing up depended on His parents adequately taking care of Him.
God himself would not depend on anyone but God/Jesus would because he came as a infant. This is true with all infants and children, they for the first 2 years depent ofn their parents, so there is nothing special that was done.

We know that Jesus was tempted but He was tempted externally by the devil, that is, He didn’t have the voice within Him daring Him to disobey God. IF Mary was a sinner, She would have the devil, in a sense, inside Her. She would be tempted from within. IF the devil is inside Her, would Jesus be able to reside within Her? He would be so very completely at Her mercy (and indeed He was).
Yes he would be able to reside within her, He is God and without sin, reguardless if Mary did sin or was born with sin. So you are saying that Jesus would not be strong enough andGod would not protect his son because Mary sinned or was born with sin?

That is a good point. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

There is another thing, let’s just say that She had a sinful body, that’s one thing, would She have been able to sin with God inside of Her? This is not taking into account Her first 12-13 years of life or life post-Nativity until dea…Her natural completion on this Earth.
She was born with original sin and like all of us has a sin nature even if God/Jesus was inside her.
How much do you know about her first 12-13 years of life?
What si there to say she didn’t sin during her first 12-13 years?

I MUST, in all good conscience, disagree. The Protoevangellium states that enmity will be between the woman and Her offspring. There are at least two people there who is the enemy of the snake. As I explained earlier, over 1000 years before the Reformation, when St. Jerome translated the Bible, the Bible the Church had, it was She because of the ipsa/ipsum disgression that we have She will do the crushing.

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

www.drbo.org

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius

latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=1&c=3

No, if He was born of a sinless mother, He would be human. It is us who are less than human. God created man perfect, sans sin. That’s how humans should have been. We forfeited that to be less than what we should be.

What is this, “sinful flesh.” That doesn’t even make sense. If Jesus was in sinful flesh, He would be naturally sinful and have sin.

Where did St. Elizabeth say that?

Where does it say the annointed would be born of sinful humans in the Old Testament?
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I know I thought the same thing when I saw it so I changed it to this color.
 
Tosh - from a Catholic perspective, of course the most important part of the Genesis passage is its prophecy of the Messiah to come.

However, God does not speak lightly, and it is important to note that He also speaks of enmity between Satan and the Woman (note He didn’t name Eve). Now what evidence do you have of this ‘enmity’ between EVE and the devil? Enmity is a powerful word - asignifying a wholehearted, unrelenting and uncompromising struggle between the Woman and the devil.

Could Eve be at enmity with the devil when she had just so utterly succumbed to him? Well, possibly by God’s grace, but then given the fallen nature of all humans which is very much emphasised in scripture - why is there no scriptural evidence of Eve having the complete change of heart and character that she would’ve required to be at ‘enmity’ with the devil instead of in the same sort of half or at least not full-hearted struggle that most humans are?
 
LilyM said:
Tosh - from a Catholic perspective, of course the most important part of the Genesis passage is its prophecy of the Messiah to come.

However, God does not speak lightly, and it is important to note that He also speaks of enmity between Satan and the Woman (note He didn’t name Eve). Now what evidence do you have of this ‘enmity’ between EVE and the devil? Enmity is a powerful word - asignifying a wholehearted, unrelenting and uncompromising struggle between the Woman and the devil.

Could Eve be at enmity with the devil when she had just so utterly succumbed to him? Well, possibly by God’s grace, but then given the fallen nature of all humans which is very much emphasised in scripture - why is there no scriptural evidence of Eve having the complete change of heart and character that she would’ve required to be at ‘enmity’ with the devil instead of in the same sort of half or at least not full-hearted struggle that most humans are?
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Absolutely. If she did not realize her responsibility then of course she would hate satan. I can just see her thinking, “well satan made me do it”. It was all his fault that I was booted from the Garden.

en⋅mi⋅ty  –noun, plural -ties. a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism.
 
If Catholics truly believe that it is Mary crushing the head of satan as in drbo.org/chapter/01003.htm, how do you think Mary defeated satan?

What actions did she do?

LOL!! If Mary did indeed crush satan as Catholics believe then we are bowing down to the wrong person, why bow down to Jesus as our saviour-all he did was die on the cross in payment for our sins, decend to hell and conquer death when he resurrected.

Sounds a bit like crushing the head of satan?
 
adstrinity said:
She did what all of us should do: She said yes to God.

Mary’s YES countered Eve’s NO.

By saying yes to God, you oppose the devil and defeat him.😃
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Maybe that’s why Jesus said, “But He answered them, saying, ‘Who is My mother, or My brothers?’ And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, ‘Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.’” Mr 3:33-35​

Good post, Adstrinity. I hope you didn’t mean it any differently than it sounds.
 
Back to the idea of Mary sinning…

I cannot understand how a mother go on sinning in front of her child, Jesus, Emmanuel, the Savior and Redeemer of the world…the image I have of this domestic scenario doesn’t make sense.

Mary is full of grace, every virgin, her whole flesh says ‘yes’ to God, and implies for us no to sin.

I cannot imagine the Savior of the world growing up in a house full of sin…

It didn’t happen by accident that Mary happened to be the one there at the right moment to receive a visit by the Archangel Gabriel…that is Pelagianism…meaningful events happening by chance…as if there is no God…

Nothing can exist without God willing it.

From a practical point of view, I can’t Mary intending to sin in front of Jesus…their house was poor, they lived so close to each other, she spent all her time with Him, nurturing Him…and if I, a sinful woman, knew that God entrusted me to be the mother of the God Child, I would do my utmost to care and protect Him, but my failings would come through…

So it makes me even wonder how people perceive Christ’s humanity…and how He lived that out…

So we have on one end, Mary – with or without sin, and Jesus - God, human but how far human…yes He was tempted in everything but did not sin, but in every day life, how far did His humanity go?

I don’t think it so difficult to believe Mary was conceived with no sin…for Jesus…and later for us, she our greatest advocate.
 
yes she was human jus like the rest of us.
She gave birth to our Lord, but if God choes to have His son come down a a grown man from the start he could have (but it wouldnt have been recieved well)
so yes she was a highly favovored faithful c God fearing sinner jus like the rest of us
THE END
 
KathleenGee said:
So it makes me even wonder how people perceive Christ’s humanity…and how He lived that out…

… and Jesus - God, human but how far human…yes He was tempted in everything but did not sin, but in every day life, how far did His humanity go?
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It’s a mystery: Fully human, fully divine, where one is so are the other two. To be outside of time and space yet be within time in space. God is.
 
About Mary crushing the head of Satan…

What that means is that the children of Mary are represented by her heel…we are the heel of Mary, she is our companion, our advocate and intercessor…we offer our daily lives as a sacrifice of love for Christ, to carry the cross, and to endure everything out of patience and joy, united to the Mass in prayer and fasting, reflecting on the Word of God…to bring about conversions and to thwart the power of the evil one…

Mary with us resisting evil through faith and prayer crushes his head…with St. Michael the Archangel…in the little things…

I read some where that God is not going to judge us so much by big things, but the daily, ordinary decisions we make each day, living in the presence of God and showing love to those next to us–our family and approximates, our neighbors, and those we meet in the market place…

I know of a ‘Marian’ mother with 7 children. She had a very kind and humble heart. She suffered when her two boys took the wrong direction in life. She prayed the rosary alot. She suffered a breakdown, went to the hospital, not having slept for 7 days. In the meantime, she was a reference for me at this library in the next town. The librarian and another assistant said they were so impressed by her motherhood and her children when they would come in to get books. She never had any idea of the impact she made around others. I shared that with her husband, and he in turn took that response from the library to her and her nurse and they were moved by that.

You could call this Catholic mother Mary’s heel. Her boys turned out OK. But physically she continued to have a hard time, was given the wrong medication and could barely function at her daughter’s wedding, but her goodness to everyone was apparent. She was a humble, suffering soul and we know her prayers were very powerful for others.
 
RHC said:
On the contrary, it is a sign of respect for Mary, whom we all agree was the Mother of our Lord. She is important because of Christ; everything about Mary points to the Lord. She always leads us to the Messiah. This is Catholic dogma.

Catholics do not consider the Virgin Mary to be divine, nor has any orthodox Catholic authority ever claimed She is/was; this is backed up by Scripture, the Catechism, and dogma. Capitalization (or lack thereof) is not a proof-text for asserting otherwise.

Now…back to the original topic - I am interested to hear the responses.
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Ok, so you are telling us that when one capitalizes a pronoun, it does not mean we are inferring divinity on them, only respect. The KJV always capitalizes the pronoun when referring to God.

Now, let us carry this a step further.

Paul states in Rom3:1 1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?

I feel that He is speaking the truth here. I have tremendous respect for Him. In fact, He may be the only one that saved Christianity from being some sub-sect of Judaism. We should all pray to Him, so that He might lead us to the Lord. Bless Him, for He is great.

See how absurd that reads.

Most generally the capitalized pronouns refer to God or Jesus. We can of course choose to capitalize pronouns when referring to others, but it is an unsound practice especially when writing on matters of faith except in RCC circles where Mary is deified .
 
unacanta said:
Ok, so you are telling us that when one capitalizes a pronoun, it does not mean we are inferring divinity on them, only respect. The KJV always capitalizes the pronoun when referring to God.

Now, let us carry this a step further.

Paul states in Rom3:1 1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?

I feel that He is speaking the truth here. I have tremendous respect for Him. In fact, He may be the only one that saved Christianity from being some sub-sect of Judaism. We should all pray to Him, so that He might lead us to the Lord. Bless Him, for He is great.

See how absurd that reads.

Most generally the capitalized pronouns refer to God or Jesus. We can of course choose to capitalize pronouns when referring to others, but it is an unsound practice especially when writing on matters of faith except in RCC circles where Mary is deified .
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Oh for the love of all things Holy & Nixon! MARY IS NOT DEIFIED!!! “Woman” is a title of Mary, as is Our Lady, Blessed Virgin, Blessed Mother, etc. She is the most important woman in history and She is God’s mother. Because of Her important role in history and in Heaven, it is not wrong to capitalize pro-nouns when referring to Her.

And, you COULD pray to the apostle Paul! If you so desire to do so, here are some prayers to help you get started, IF you don’t know what to ask him. Interestingly enough, the prayers bring up the points you mentioned…

2heartsnetwork.org/Paul.htm
osv.com/YearofStPaulNav/YearofStPaul/Prayers/tabid/6234/Default.aspx

And, to Dokimas, YES!!! That is it!!! Mary always did the Will of God and Jesus wanted to stress that point; She followed Him, be like Her. Exactly. Most non-apostolic faiths do not make that connection. As a matter of fact, you are the first non-Catholic I know to have that passage come to mind. Do the Will of God and you CANNOT go wrong.
 
ok duh it wouldnt have fullfilled prophcy, i was using that as an example to say that she was a human vessel for the Lord just like moses and and peter and paul. Her role was was the most importiant but that doesnt make her any sinless. if your born human you are born into sin. Im not saying tha she went out and did bad things she was a good person but you cant forget that she was human like you and me, and she said yes to God. She was Highly favored and thats why God picked her.
 
I can see just how much people have been affected by false teachings, especially that coming out of the United States…and there are organizations based here going out to take Catholics from their church…and their families…where they can no longer prayer together and when prayer is lost among members in a household, they also begin to lose a sense of each other.

Martin Luther venerated Mary. It was indeed the laity who wanted to have devotion to her…it took the church almost 2,000 years to declare her the Immaculate Conception…Mary conceived without sin.

To justify Mary being an ongoing sinner contradicts her being Christ’s mother, and providing a home proper to nurturing the Savior of the world.

It also goes back further to one’s understanding to reach heaven…we go through our stages to be purged of sins, working to be enlightened by God’s presence in our lives, and seeking to be one with Him…it is a life long journey. Mary’s humanity obscured God’s will at times, but she always fulfilled it.

A priest told me that Mary simply does not have the same constitution as us.

And it is very hard for protestants to even imagine celibacy possible in the Latin rite.

So yes, it would be very hard for them to conceive Mary as sinless.
 
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