Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter rinnie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not as easy to downplay or disregard Mary as some would like. The thinking would be “well if not Mary then someone else”.

Ah, but this happens “no-where” in Scripture and is un-biblical. It was Mary from the start and had she not cooperated in Free-Will, man very well may be still waiting on Jesus. How does one assume God didn’t foresee this and thus already plan for this event. 🤷

No-where is Scripture is there not one indication Mary is ever subjected to Sin, but by a lack of Biblical understanding. Orthodox Christianity doesn’t entertain this for they existed before the canons. The Orthodox Church was subjected to severe persecution for the Icons, thus veneration, and so went the history of Orthodoxy, and still does today.

When Gabriel states Hail Mary, you have found Favor with God, this is a Salutation. The war in Heaven already occured with Michael and Lucifer. Satan refused to follow a human, those as it Michael who states “Who is greater than God” and Gabriel and the rest have no issue with Gods decree, and they venerate Mary as we see with the Annunciation thus salutation. She not only becomes the Mother of the Lord at this point She too becomes Queen of Heaven and both with Her consent. Let is be done to me as “He” wills. A statement all would do well to remember.

Marys Faith cannot be questioned, thus it is an assumption to believe She is even subjected to sin. Twisted biblical verse has no authority in relation to Christ, Mary, Adam or Eve. Not one was subjected to a Stain in creation or conception. Wherever this failure occurs through Bible documentation, no-where is this documented as fact with Jesus or Mary. The Incarnation protects and preserves the Sinless state of Mary. Where Catholics and Eastern Orthodox differ in description of the fallen state, has no bearing on this. Whatever it is we have, be it a disease, plague, evil, sin etc…we have it, you have it, but there were FOUR who did not have it, Christ, Mary, Adam and Eve. Pride caused Adam and Eve to fall. This doesn’t exist with Jesus or Mary. Here we see nothing by Virtue upon Virtue.

There is One Trinity, Mary is not in the Trinity, not a Goddess, but she was not only Full of Grace at the Annunciation, she continued on Her path of escalated Sanctifying Grace as She walked to the Cross with Her Son in suffering. At the foot of that Cross stood not but One Apostle and 3-Women.

And let me take this a step further for you. Orthodoxy had held Christ, Mary and the Eucharist as the Three Great Mysteries of the Holy Orthodox Church from “day one”. All this was in place before the Bible is established which happens in “382” to be exact.

The Canons are written as the focus on Christ for very good reason He is God. And this was the first heresy Christians fought thus Matthew and Chapter one and the connection to the Davidic Keys. Clarity for the community of Jews who would have immediately understood.

Not understanding the Oral Tradition does not help one understand the “Orthodox” Christian tradition, nor the Bible. Here even Revelation becomes a further condundrum. For John is describing the Mass of the Orthodox Church as it evolved from the Jewish. All this was in place before the Bible is complete, and if the Oral Tradition is not understood, then Revelation goes right over the head of the reader. Its really that simple and Chapter 11-12 become a one-verse, for there were never two, of speculation. Revelation is the Mass and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Jesus with us for till His second coming. The understanding of 11-12 leads correct understanding to Mary and Jesus through time.

There was One Church till the 12th century. There was nothing “new” developed in the 19th or 20th century. That is a complete lack of research. What comes is Dogma thus further definition of what always existed in these Apostilic Churchs. The Assumption does not distract from the Dormition, it leaves the window open in which we do not know in the Apostolic Church nor have we ever know, since we have no documentation in regard.

The IC I would research the Patristics 19th century is “False”.

Peace
 
Rabbity said:
I’m not a protestant or any variety of christian for that matter, but since being here I’ve learned a lot about catholic beliefs.

As for Mary, if I did hypothetically convert, Mary, veneration of the saints, cloud of witnesses and intercessory prayer would not be a barrier. In fact, that would make more sense to me as a hypothetical christian than not having those elements.

That said, despite the verses in the posts above, I would take the view of the Orthodox regarding Mary’s sinless nature, she became sinless when she agreed to have Jesus. To have her as sinless since birth makes her not fully human and removes her agency to agree or disagree to bear Jesus and dims the grace bestowed upon her when she says yes. I also have trouble with the “ever-virgin” idea.
Click to expand...
Well if you go by that then Mary was not sinless then was she? Also you have a big problem with scripture, How would you make it go away, Mary was without sin BEFORE she agreed to have Jesus.

Go back and read the scripture it says the Angel said to her, Rejoice you who enjoy Gods’s favour. The Lord is with you.

Now you are saying she became sinless WHEN she AGREED to have Jesus. Read the scripture she did not agree until after she was tod she had found favour and the Lord is with her.

Also how could she possibly be in a state of sin if the Lord is with her. Sin separates us from God does it not?

The teaching’s of the Church teach’s us she was preserved from all sin until her death. That means she never had any sin at all. Preserve means maintained or remained in original state. You are saying she was not saved from sin UNTIL she said Yes to God.

That would not be preserved from original state then. That is why this is not the true teaching of the Church.

She was preserved without sin until her death. This means never had it and died in a purified state.
 
MartinJordan said:
Jesus’ lineage comes from the line of sinners. David was also a sinner and the Jewish people accept him and revered him.

Back to Christianity, Jesus was called Son Of David but rights the wrongs. So Mary rights the wrongs of Eve and thus can say even Bathsheba.

So there should be no problem therefore connecting Mary to Bathsheba.

Finally, Solomon is son of David, Solomon’s mother was Bathsheba. Thus Jesus being Son of David we can connect Mother Mary to complete the “puzzle”.

Mary Queen of Heaven, pray for us:signofcross:

MJ
Click to expand...
You kind of answered my question with a question. 😃 If you go back it was roy who said it was wrong to compare the 2.

I was just saying the same thing, When we compare her to Eve we are also comparing sinner to saint you could say. That was my point.:confused:
 
As an Anglican I have begun saying the Hail Mary in my prayers and have come to believe in the intercesstion of the saints and Mary. Not sure yet about the doctrines of Perpetual Virginity or the Assumption, but am more open to them.
 
rinnie said:
You kind of answered my question with a question. 😃 If you go back it was roy who said it was wrong to compare the 2.

I was just saying the same thing, When we compare her to Eve we are also comparing sinner to saint you could say. That was my point.:confused:
Click to expand...
Right. I was actually responding to Roy but quoted your comment instead. Oops.:o We’re basically having the same viewpoint. 😃

MJ
 
Whether Mary was born sinless, or was capable of sinning but was extraordinarily good at not doing so, or did sin and was absolved of it when she agreed to have Jesus, or still needed a savior or some combination thereof, I’ll leave you to discuss that with others. It makes no difference to me. 🙂
 
Thank you for your viewpoints and clarifications.

On the subjects of Mary, the immaculate conception and original sin, if I were a christian I’d still tend to tilt toward the Orthodox. Whether Mary was born sinless, born with the ability to sin and had an extraordinary ability to not sin, did sin and was absolved when she agreed to bear Jesus, or still needed a savior, or some combination thereof it makes no difference to me.

As you were.

🙂
 
The essence of “original sin” consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Fundamentalists’ Objections

Fundamentalists’ chief objection “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

Doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. [Catholic Answers]

And

Now as to another assumed issue with the Eastern Church. The Fathers of the Eastern Church call the Mother of God …“All Holy” [Panagia] and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin as fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature” [also CCC-493]

Most Eastern Orthodox churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary are called Panagia; the standard western Christian designation of “St. Mary” is rarely used in the Orthodox East, as Mary is considered the holiest of all human beings and therefore of higher status than the Saints, literally a “Saint in the superlative”. [Wiki-Pedia]
 
Open minds are definately required, not to confuse, however, but another area to consider is John the Baptist. Conceived by Divine Intervention, however, his parents were subjected to a fallen state of sin. Thus John the Baptist wasn’t " Divinely conceived" without stain. This senerio also exists in the OT as Isaac was Divinely Conceived and at what age did this Birth occur?
 
my opinion of the Virgin Mary has not changed any because of this website.

This website has changed some opinions and not necessarily for the better or in your favour perhaps.
 
englishredrose said:
my opinion of the Virgin Mary has not changed any because of this website.

This website has changed some opinions and not necessarily for the better or in your favour perhaps.
Click to expand...
Do you love Sacred Scripture? Do you understand and agree with Typology?
 
GaryTaylor said:
The essence of “original sin” consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace.
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
**What happened to the Blessed Mother after Jesus Christ died, and rose to Heaven?
**
See the Council of Chalcedon 451AD

See early church hymns such as

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me {ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1{A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity 15:23 {A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 {A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin 71:216 {ante AD 373}.

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22, 30 {A.D. 388}.

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace 4, 36 {A.D.415}.

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 446}.

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6, 11{ante A.D. 446}.

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 {A.D. 449}.

“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug {ante A.D. 521}.

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption 5:6 {ante A.D. 650}.

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God…. The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon 1 On the Birth of Mary {A.D. 733}.

“Truly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali {ante A.D. 733}.

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! Oh glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 749}.

Be Blessed!
 
What about the protestants?
(Calvin’s Commentaries are available at ccel.org/.)

And knew her not This passage afforded the pretext for great disturbances, which were introduced into the Church, at a former period, by Helvidius [c. 4th century AD]. The inference he drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband. Jerome [c. 347 to 420 AD], on the other hand, earnestly and copiously defended Mary’s perpetual virginity. Let us rest satisfied with this, that no just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the Evangelist, as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called first-born; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin. It is said that Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: but this is limited to that very time. What took place afterwards, the historian does not inform us. Such is well known to have been the practice of the inspired writers. Certainly, no man will ever raise a question on this subject, except from curiosity; and no man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark and Luke, First Volume (page 107)

The word brothers, we have formerly mentioned, is employed, agreeably to the Hebrew idiom, to denote any relatives whatever; and, accordingly, Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s brothers are sometimes mentioned.

John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark and Luke, Second Volume (page 215)

Take note of this: no one should put his trust or confidence in the Mother of God or in her merits, for such trust is worthy of God alone and is the lofty service due only to him. Rather praise and thank God through Mary and the grace given her. Laud and love her simply as the one who, without merit, obtained such blessings from God, sheerly out of his mercy, as she herself testifies in the Magnificat [Luke 1:46-55].

It is very much the same when I am moved by a view of the heavens, the sun, and all creation to exalt him who created everything, bringing all this into my prayer and praise, saying: O God, Author of such a beautiful and perfect creation, grant to me…. Similarly, our prayer should include the Mother of God as we say: O God, what a noble person you have created in her! May she be blessed! And so on. And you who honored her so highly, grant also to me….

Let not our hearts cleave to her, but through her penetrate to Christ and to God himself. Thus what the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee [Luke 1:28]; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen.”

You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor. Similarly there is no petition in the first words of the Lord’s Prayer but rather praise and glorification that God is our Father and that he is in heaven. Therefore we should make the Hail Mary neither a prayer nor an invocation because it is improper to interpret the words beyond what they mean in themselves and beyond the meaning given them by the Holy Spirit.

But there are two things we can do. First, we can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her [as one blessed by God].

In the first place, she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin-something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

In the second place, God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.

In the third place, she is blessed above all other women, not only because she gave birth without labor, pain, and injury to herself, not as Eve and all other women, but because by the Holy Spirit and without sin, she became fertile, conceived, and gave birth in a way granted to no other woman.

In the fourth place, her giving birth is blessed in that it was spared the curse upon all children of Eve who are conceived in sin [Ps. 51:5] and born to deserve death and damnation. Only the fruit of her body is blessed, and through this birth we are all blessed.
Furthermore, a prayer or wish is to be added-our prayer for all who speak evil against this Fruit and the Mother. But who is it that speaks evil of this Fruit and the Mother? Any who persecute and speak evil against his work, the gospel, and the Christian faith, as Jews and papists are now doing.

The conclusion of this is that in the present no one speaks evil of this Mother and her Fruit as much as those who bless her with many rosaries and constantly mouth the Hail Mary. These, more than any others, speak evil against Christ’s word and faith in the worst way.

Therefore, notice that this Mother and her Fruit are blessed in a twofold way-bodily and spiritually. Bodily with lips and the words of the Hail Mary; such persons blaspheme and speak evil of her most dangerously. And spiritually [one blesses her] in one’s heart by praise and benediction for her child, Christ-for all his words, deeds, and sufferings. And no one does this except he who has the true Christian faith because without such faith no heart is good but is by nature stuffed full of evil speech and blasphemy against God and all his saints. For that reason he who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Haft Mary and all other prayers because to such a person the words apply: Let his prayer be sin [Ps. 109:7].

Luther’s Works, Vol. 43, pages 39 to 41
 
While Mary sinning is one thing and ever-virgin another, I’d like to know what Martin Luther and John Calvin thought about the former.

As to Mary being ever-virgin, they not only agreed Mary was ever-virgin; they taught it.

Thanks, Marty
 
MartinMark said:
While Mary sinning is one thing and ever-virgin another, I’d like to know what Martin Luther and John Calvin thought about the former.

As to Mary being ever-virgin, they not only agreed Mary was ever-virgin; they taught it.

Thanks, Marty
Click to expand...
Did you read the quotes from Martin Luther?

**In the first place, she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin-something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

In the second place, God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.**
 
I believe there was some early writings, false gospels ,spurious ,some dealing with mary and possibly her ascension ,along with many other writings, that were declared “bad” or anathema by a pope around 500’s .sorry i don’t have specifics (was it the gospel of thomas ? Not sure)
 
Patavium said:
Did you read the quotes from Martin Luther?

**In the first place, she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin-something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

In the second place, God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.**
Click to expand...
We must remember he was a Catholic at first and his "break’ with some of her teachings is monumental. But he was not free in all truth. For instance he also kept his contmporary /catholic thoughts on Jews, calling them “dogs”, fit to be racked/burned or something .Yes , like the twelve incredibly carnal,coniving sons of Jacob(?) God found it fit to grace them with saving faith and much illumination in a darkened world, forming our foundation of faith ( “salvation is of the Jews”).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top